GEORGE'S GEMS

Discussions about day to day Christian life.

GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:18 pm

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There is one kind of religion in which the more devoted a man is, the fewer proselytes he makes; it is the worship of himself. — George Macdonald; The Maiden's Bequest, p. 125
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby maintenanceman » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:22 pm

Paidion wrote:Image

There is one kind of religion in which the more devoted a man is, the fewer proselytes he makes; it is the worship of himself. — George Macdonald; The Maiden's Bequest, p. 125


Paidion, I thank you for the quote. I agree with it. But I ask you, is the idea universal, in that what each of us Christians has been shown by the Lord (through the word AND the Spirit) what to do and say and think, of equal value? So is one persons view of what the Lord tells him or her to do as valid as another's? :?

I think this is a valid question. :)

Peace :D

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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:40 pm

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Better be damned, doin' the will of God, than saved doin' nothing! George MacDonald; Alex Forbes of Howglen
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby maintenanceman » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:43 pm

Paidion wrote:Image

Better be damned, doin' the will of God, than saved doin' nothing! George MacDonald; Alex Forbes of Howglen


:?: :?: Explain :?:
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:56 am

In this thread, I don't explain. I just quote.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:12 am

One of my favorite

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I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:24 am

Excellent GMD quote, St. Michael!

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To say on the authority of the Bible that God does a thing no honourable man would do, is to lie against God; to say that it is therefore right, is to lie against the very spirit of God.
George MacDonald; Unspoken Sermons III, Justice
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby maintenanceman » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:44 pm

I will concede... :D

Here is a good one from unspoken sermons 2 'The cause of spiritual stupidity':

"When we understand the outside of things, we think we have them: the Lord puts his things in subdefined, suggestive shapes, yielding no satisfactory meaning to the mere intellect, but unfolding themselves to the conscience and heart, to the man himself, in the process of life- effort".
Macdonald, George. Unspoken Sermons Series I, II, and III (p. 129). Start Publishing LLC. Kindle Edition.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:10 pm

This is the one right here Paidion:

“If [the gospel of Christ] be true, everything in the universe is glorious, except sin….I love my Bible more – I am always finding out something new in it – I seem to have had everything to learn over again…. But I find that the happiness springing from all things not in themselves sinful is much increased by religion. God is the God of the beautiful, Religion the love of the Beautiful, and Heaven the home of the Beautiful, Nature is tenfold brighter in the sun of Righteousness, and my love of Nature is more intense since I became a Christian – if indeed I am one.”
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:21 pm

Men may pursue the Beautiful, while they
Love not the Good, the life of all the Fair;
Keen-eyed for beauty, they will find it where
The darkness of their eyes hath power to slay
The vision of the good in beauty's ray,
Though fruits the same life-giving branches bear
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:28 pm

One more Paidion,

“Let us go further and, looking at beauty, believe that God is the first of artists; that he has put beauty into nature, knowing how it will affect us, and intending that it should so affect us; that he has embodied his own grand thoughts thus that we might see them and be glad.”
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:37 am

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In love, every man shows himself better than he is, though, thank God, not better than he is meant to become. — George Macdonald; The Maiden's Bequest,p 192.
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:19 pm

There is a darkness that comes of effulgence; and the most veiling of all veils is the light. That for which the eye exists is light, but through light no human eye can pierce.
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:02 pm

George MacDonald wrote:People that only care to be saved, this is, not to be punished for their sins, are anxious only about themselves, not about God and His glory at all. They talk about the glory of God, but they make it consist in pure selfishness! According to them, He seeks everything for Himself; which is dead against the truth of God, a diabolic slander of God. It does not trouble them to believe such things about God'; they do not even desire that God should not be like that; they only want to escape Him. They dare not say that God will not do this or that, however clear it be that it would not be fair; they are in terror of contradicting the Bible. They make more of the Bible than of God, and so fail to find the truth of the Bible, and accept things concerning God which are not in the Bible, and are the greatest of insults to Him!

The Elect Lady, Chapter XXXII
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:18 pm

It sounds like George MacDonald wanted glory for himself. But Jesus said:

I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. ~~ John 8:50

God gives us a glory when we don't seek it for ourselves. We seek the glory of God. God isn't selfish for seeking His glory for He is the greatest most glorious being in the universe. Moreover, in seeking His glory He breaks the bondage to the idol of self in His creatures. Therefore this is an act of love on God's part. Not selfishness. He knows we won't be complete until we give Him the glory. The glory the creature receives is in humility. In giving God the glory we receive a glory. We keep it by giving it away. My main motive for loving and being kind to others is to glorify God.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. ~~ 1 Cor. 10:31



When we seek our own glory (self-esteem) we become aggressive bullying and egotistical. George MacDonald was verbally abusive to people (Calvinists) and he hated God because of His wrath. George MacDonald didn't love his enemies. But Jesus did and he commanded us to. This is what happens when you seek your own glory. It leads to ego. For me it even lead to megalomania. This is from my book called "The Wisdom To Know the Difference" by the psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Mississippi. It's under the section called "The Self-Esteem Myth"


The myth says that low self-esteem lies at the core of many individual and societal problems...During the last ten years, there has been a major effort by scientists to examine whether this story about the role of self-esteem is true. As it turns out, the answer is no. High self-esteem is related to aggressiveness, bullying, narcissism, egotism, prejudice, and high risk behaviors.



The book was published in 2012


C.S. Lewis was correct. Pride is the root of all other sins.

The vice I am talking of is Pride or Self-Conceit: and the virtue opposite to it, in Christian morals, is called Humility. You may remember, when I was talking about sexual morality, I warned you that the center of Christian morals did not lie there.  Well, now, we have come to the centre.  According to Christian teachers, the essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride.  Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind. ~~ C.S. Lewis



According to Fr. Cajetan Mary da Bergo in "Humility of Heart:


Self annihilates itself before God, not in order to remain in an idle inactivity, but seeking rather to glorify Him continually.



The teacher of Pope John Paul II:

Egoism is an inordinate self-love in which self is preferred to God (the sovereign good). But how can God prefer Himself to the sovereign good, since He is identified with it? Hence God in preferring Himself above all things is preferring the sovereign good. For Him to do otherwise would be an intolerable disorder. For God to prefer any creature to Himself would amount to a mortal sin in Him, and that is the final absurdity. - Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:37 am

George MacDonald died in 1905, and so had died prior to the Communist revolution in Russia. However, communist thinking existed long before the revolution. Here are GMD's thoughts:

George MacDonald wrote:When I see a man lifting up those that are beneath him, not pulling down those that are above him, I will believe in his communism."


Perhaps had he lived in our day, GMD might have said:

When I see a man lifting up those that are beneath him, instead of lifting himself up, I will believe in his capitalism.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:41 am

St. M wrote:It sounds like George MacDonald wanted glory for himself.


How you arrived at that conclusion from the GMD quote, is beyond me. If you ever have the privilege of reading his biography, you will know that he was quite the opposite in every aspect of his life. He was a servant of God and a servant of people. He loved even those who hated him for his Godly life, and when cruel words were directed against him, he never retaliated in like manner.
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:08 pm

Paidion wrote:
St. M wrote:It sounds like George MacDonald wanted glory for himself.


How you arrived at that conclusion from the GMD quote, is beyond me. If you ever have the privilege of reading his biography, you will know that he was quite the opposite in every aspect of his life. He was a servant of God and a servant of people. He loved even those who hated him for his Godly life, and when cruel words were directed against him, he never retaliated in like manner.


Well put, Paidion. Few men have lived as holy a life as George MacDonald. He is easily my favorite religious writer who wasn't a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Eaglesway » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:14 pm

Self that annihilates itself leaves the dried ashes of self. Self that dissolves before the glory of God is death swallowed up in victory, Christ in you- the hope of glory.

"St Paul would be wretched before the throne of God, if he thought there was one man beyond the pale of his mercy, and that as much for God's glory as for the man's sake."- a gem by george
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:11 pm

Eaglesway,

The Bible flat out contradicts George MacDonald:

For Your name's sake, O LORD, Pardon my iniquity, for it is great ~~ Psalms 25:11

It's for God's glory alone that we receive mercy. We receive a glory but it is in humility. We keep it by giving it away. It's more blessed to give than receive. God gives the grace and He gets the glory. In this we are glorified. Just as Christ emptied Himself and became nothing before God we are to do likewise. This is being in union with Christ. We will be crowned with a different degree of glory in heaven. But we empty ourselves for the wind of the spirit to blow through. It comes from God and goes back to God. God alone is intrinsically glorious:


I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. ~~ Psalms 25:11



When we try to exalt ourselves to the throne it leads to ego. This is what happened to Satan. And George MacDonald was verbally abusive to Calvinists and hated God because of His wrath. Jesus gave us the example of loving our enemies. For He did not seek His own glory but gave it to God. Vengeance is Mine says God. If your enemy is hungry feed him.
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:44 am

Dumbfounded by the conclusion saint m has on GMD...
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby DaveB » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:51 am

Me too.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:44 am

Okay Paidion. I just ordered "The Gospel in George MacDonald: Selections from His Novels, Fairy Tales, and Spiritual Writings". I'm looking into him. I see that he was Scottish. I'm Irish on my mother's side. The "Browns" and the "Bryants". Anyway, I see he also influenced G.K. Chesterton and J.R.R. Tolken. I read a sampling and it didn't look all that bad. The book will be here tomorrow. Give me a little time and I'll give you an update.
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:10 pm

My favorite song from Celtic music:


I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:01 pm

Here's union Paidion


“Love is one, and love is changeless.

For love loves unto purity. Love has ever in view the absolute loveliness of that which it beholds. Where loveliness is incomplete, and love cannot love its fill of loving, it spends itself to make more lovely, that it may love more; it strives for perfection, even that itself may be perfected–not in itself, but in the object. As it was love that first created humanity, so even human love, in proportion to its divinity, will go on creating the beautiful for its own outpouring. There is nothing eternal but that which loves and can be loved, and love is ever climbing towards the consummation when such shall be the universe, imperishable, divine.

Therefore all that is not beautiful in the beloved, all that comes between and is not of love’s kind, must be destroyed.

And our God is a consuming fire.”

― George MacDonald, Unspoken Sermons: Series I, II, III
Last edited by St. Michael on Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:35 pm

“I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. But when i say truth, I do not mean opinion. To treat opinion as if that were truth is grievously to wrong the truth. The soul that loves the truth and tries to be true will know when to speak and when to be silent.”

― George MacDonald, Unspoken Sermons: Series I, II, III
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:36 pm

“Jesus tells us we must leave the self altogether-yield it, deny it, refuse it, lose it. Thus only shall we save it.... The self is given us that we may sacrifice it. It is ours in order that we, like Christ, may have something to offer- not that we should torment it, but that we should deny it; not that we should cross it, but that we should abandon it utterly.”

― George MacDonald, Unspoken Sermons: Series I, II, III
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Amazing truth:

The true question is forgotten: "Have I left all to follow Him?" The important thing is whether we are letting God have His own way with us, following where He leads, learning the lessons He gives us. ~~ George MacDonald
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:02 pm

But yet there is another way. Go and do God's will and you will know. That is the remedy to the gloomy doubts and the terrible depression of this age. And remember what so many forget, the Christian duty of joy. You say: It is not in my power to rejoice now." Well, I deny it. You have the power, if only you will exert the will. And don't let slip the youthful dreams. Such things will help you against that false self which comes with the Tempting voice to despair. And don't let gloomy pictures of results keep coming before you. "Tomorrow" has no existence till it actually comes. Let it take care of itself. ~~ George MacDonald in The Gospel in George MacDonald: Selections from His novels, fairy Tales, and Spiritual Writings, page 94




I like George MacDonald's remedy here for deflating the ego or as he says getting out of the "false self". "Tomorrow hasn't arrived" he says. Indeed God hold's the future in His hands and He's a God of love. I have all the reason to have hope and not let the "youthful dreams slip". This shouldn't make one inactive though. MacDonald speaks here of doing God's will and being of service. Getting out of yourself by doing the will of God helps when things are gloomy. And keeping away from sin and you won't be shameful or depressed. Even exercise helps. I walk around an outdoor track where there is beautiful scenery of ponds, fountains, ducks. I try to go at sunset or sunrise so that the beauty helps cleanse my mind and thought. Stilling my thoughts while walking is like a meditation but an active meditation. Doing God's will doesn't have to be volunteering to help the homeless but it can. Simply working around the house doing yard work of helping someone at A.A. Hard work helps relieve depression as you get out of yourself. And don't let the false self take control. As George MacDonald says in the same book quoted above on union:



To be right with God is to be right with the universe; one with the power, the love, the will of the mighty Father, the cherisher of joy, the lord of laughter, whose are all glories, all hopes, who loves everything, and hates nothing but selfishness, which he will not have in His kingdom. page 57
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby St. Michael » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:07 pm

This is taken from the Novel by MacDonald "What's Mine is Mine". It's about a woman named Christiana as she is falling in love with another man.

She was nearer God than she had ever been before. But she did not know this - might never in the world know it; she understood nothing of what was going on in her, only felt it go on; it was not love of God that was moving her. Yet she stood in her white dress like one risen from the grave, looking in sweet bliss on a new heaven and new earth, made new by the new opening of her eyes. To save man or woman, the next thing to the love of God is the love of man or woman; only let no man or woman mistake the love of love for love!

She started, grew white, stood up, grew red as a sunset - was it? - could it be? - Is this love? she said to herself, and for minutes she hardly moved.

It was love.



To save man or woman, the next thing to the love of God is the love of man or woman; only let no man or woman mistake the love of love for love!


Here MacDonald is describing love of God as being in love with love. God is love. And the closest thing to love of love is the love between a man and woman. We are not to mistake the love of love with the love between man and woman. It's the same thing Rumi is talking about:


I Am In Love With Love

I am in love with love
love is in love with me
my body fell in love
with my soul
and my soul fell in love
with me
we take turns in loving
we take turns in being loved

Rumi


The existence of the universe itself is sheerest grace, the result of God's infinite capacity to fall in love. Salvation is returning the favor - Bishop Robert Barron
I do not say we are called upon to dispute and defend the truth with logic and argument, but we are called upon to show by our lives that we stand on the side of truth. ~~ George MacDonald
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:21 pm

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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:16 pm

George MacDonald wrote:Doubts are the messengers of the Living One to the honest.  They are the first knock at our door of things that are not yet, but have to be, understood. . . . Doubts must precede every deeper assurance; for uncertainties are what we first see when we look into a region hitherto unknown, unexplored, unannexed.
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby DaveB » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:16 pm

That is a wonderful and wise quote.

Also: Beuchner:

If theres no room for doubt, theres no room for me.

- originally published in The Alphabet of Grace
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:28 pm

George MacDonald wrote:We often think we believe what we are only presenting to our imaginations. The least thing can overthrow that kind of faith. — Donal Grant, Chapter One
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:46 pm

George MacDonald wrote:Donal with a smile, "An abiding city seems hardly necessary to pilgrims and strangers! I fell asleep once on the top of Glashgar: when I woke the sun was looking over the edge of the horizon. I rose and gazed about me as if I were but that moment created. If God had called me, I should hardly have been astonished."

"Or frightened?" asked the minister.

"No, sir; why should a man fear the presence of his saviour?"

"You said God!" answered the minister.

"God is my saviour! Into his presence it is my desire to come."

"Under the shelter of the atonement," supplemented the minister.

"If you mean by that, sir," cried Donal, "anything to come between my God and me, I'll have none of it. I'll have nothing hide me from him who made me. I would not hide a thought from him. The worse it is, the more he needs to see it."
—Donal Grant
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Eaglesway » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:18 pm

And there is no creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:24 pm

Donal Grant to Lady Arctura (who was raised up in the Church of Scotland to think that correct belief is everything, and especially the belief that Christ died for the elect to save them from God's condemnation to hell of the non-elect):

"No other than the God exactly like Christ can be the true God. It is a doctrine of devils that Jesus died to save us from our father. There is no safety, no good, no gladness, no purity, but with the Father, His father, and our father, His God and our God."

"But God hates sin and punishes it!"

"It would be terrible if He did not. All hatred of sin is love to the sinner. Do you think Jesus came to deliver us from the punishment of our sins? He would not have moved a step for that. The horrible thing is being bad, and all punishment is help to deliver us from that, nor will punishment cease till we have ceased to be bad." — Donal Grant, Chapter XXXIII
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby DaveB » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:29 pm

Oh that is a JEWEL of a gem!
I really have lived in books. Books are friends. They are some of the friends that make you who you are.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:56 pm

From GMD's novel "Donal Grant":

To have what we want is riches, but to be able to do without is power.
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
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Re: GEORGE'S GEMS

Postby Paidion » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:51 pm

From GMD's novel "Donal Grant":

We often think we believe what we are only presenting to our imaginations. The least thing can overthrow that kind of faith.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
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