Is the term 'purgatory' un-Biblical?

[JasonPratt]

As a trinitarian theist, I am occasionally told (quite accurately) that the term "Trinity" appears nowhere in scripture. And that's true; not only does it not appear in any English translation (so far as I've ever heard or read), it also is not built from a word or term that appears in Hebrew, Aramaic or (more likely) Greek scripture. Nor is it built from a scriptural term translated into a subsequent popular language (such as vulgate Latin, which in fact is where the term "trinity" does come from. But not from Vulgate Latin scriptural usage.)

This is of no concern to trinitarians in the least, because no trinitarian ever built their belief in the Trinity from the supposed existence of that word in scripture anyway! The question (from an exegetical standpoint) is whether the concept occurs in scripture, or whether the doctrine can be legitimately derived from concepts that are testified to in scripture; not whether the term appears in scripture.

Consequently, I can only be amused when well-meaning non-universalist trinitarians attempt to flumox believers in universalism who believe in one or another kind of purgatory, and so who use that term (though not all universalists do), by claiming that this term does not occur in scripture. "Where did you get such an unbiblical word? From the RCs, lol!" or some such thing.

This is especially because, while the concept might or might not be testified to in scripture, the term in various cognate forms is in fact "biblical".

"Purgatory" is, in fact, simply a Latin (or rather a post-Latin) noun built from several Latin terms, which do in fact appear in the scriptures several times, as one (of several) ways of translating Greek cognates built from the word {kath-}. The term itself is even built from the Greek word {pur} for "fire", which occurs even more often in scripture, and which came (not least thanks to how it is often used in scripture!) to be one way of talking about cleaning or (as we would say in English, following old Latin usage) purifying.

One of the more recognizable uses of the term is found in 2 Peter 1:9.

cui enim non praesto sunt haec caecus est et manu temptans oblivionem accipiens purgationis veterum suorum delictorum

ᾧ γὰρ μὴ πάρεστιν ταῦτα τυφλός ἐστιν μυωπάζων λήθην λαβὼν τοῦ καθαρισμοῦ τῶν πάλαι αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτιῶν

h(i)o gar me parestin tauta tuphlos estin muopazon lethen labon tou katharismou ton palai autou hamartion

"For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins." (NASB)

This is certainly not a prooftext for any doctrine of purgatory (that I am aware of anyway), but it shows how the term can be used in one noun form ("purgation", just like in English, with an extra Latin suffix) in relation to salvation from sin.

Latin speakers simply picked up the term and applied it (with a bit of grammatic modification to purgatorum or purgatoria or something of that sort) to the concept of one or another kind of after-death cleansing from sin by God.


The proper complaint for a non-universalist, therefore, is not that the term is unbiblical; but rather that people who believe in purgatory (whether universalistic or otherwise) are using a biblical term, and even an explicitly biblical idea expressed (on occasion) by that biblical term, to promote an unbiblical idea. Otherwise, they will be met with the ironic retort that the term is found a lot more often in the Bible than "the Trinity"!

(Not a problem for unitarian non-universalists, of course; but the same retort could be made that since the term "theology", much less "unitarian theology", appears nowhere in scriptural, then unitarian theology must be unbiblical--or maybe doesn't exist at all. Which would be ridiculous as an argument, or even only as evidence, against the truth of any unitarian theology.)

[Grace]

it seems wholly possible, Jason, that the Catholic concept of Purgatory is quite compatible with the Biblical hell, as opposed to the Lake of Fire.

Luke 12:46-48 seems to refer to the Final Judgement at the coming of Christ (Mark 13:32-33), and if this is the case, this means the suffering endured will be temporary; that the suffering of those still alive at Christ's second coming, who did not have the opportunity to suffer for a time in hell will be punished then and there, and their punishment will not be forever (Revelation 14:9-11).

this is all hypothetical, but what are your thoughts on it?

[Michael]

According to Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, Purgatory and hell are pretty much the same thing in the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

Roman Catholics believe Christ was refering to purgatory in the following passages:

"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. Matt. 5:25-26.

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasse. Matt. 18:32-35.

The Orthodox would view these passages as refering to hell, and they would seem to imply some temporary purgation--but one argument I've seen against this is that the unmerciful servant didn't have the ten thousand talents, and would have nothing to tell his tormentors (and no way to pay his debt.)

How do we answer that?

Does anyone know if there was anything like indentured slavery (or debtors prison) in Greco/Roman times?

[Grace]

Michael ~

if one can not pay in monetary units, might one pay with one's time in torment, as applicable to the situation, and the severity of one's crime? because it is still said of the unmerciful servant that that his punishment shall be till he prays, indicating an end to his torment in the future.

edit: meant to write "until he pays" but "prays" may work, too.

[Grace]

According to Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, Purgatory and hell are pretty much the same thing in the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

thank you for this information, Michael. that's pretty amazing. the more one learns about Eastern, Oriental, and Catholic theology, the more there is to love. and notice.

[Michael]

According to Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, Purgatory and hell are pretty much the same thing in the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

thank you for this information, Michael. that's pretty amazing. the more one learns about Eastern, Oriental, and Catholic theology, the more there is to love. and notice.

You're welcome Grace.

And yes, I think there's much to value and respect in those traditions.

Michael ~

if one can not pay in monetary units, might one pay with one's time in torment, as applicable to the situation, and the severity of one's crime? because it is still said of the unmerciful servant that that his punishment shall be till he prays, indicating an end to his torment in the future.

edit: meant to write "until he pays" but "prays" may work, too.

Yes, but the idea of temporary purgation would seem to fit better if there was some way for the unmerciful servant to pay the debt within the context of the parable (so I'd still be interested in whether there was some way for a prisoner to work off his debt in Greco/ Roman times.)

[JasonPratt]

Passing through quickly (alas, wasn't able to work on compiling notes for another thread Sunday--sorry Michael, hopefully this week...)

Grace,

The RCC notion of purgatory is that those who are nevertheless elected for salvation must go through some kind of cleaning process, most likely (though not certainly) punitive in character, before they enter heaven. While they wouldn't consider it tantamount to the Lake of Fire from RevJohn, in its punitive role, they might consider the two operations to be tantamount to the same operation of the Holy Spirit on the elect and the non-elect. (I'm using Calv terms here, but Calv was following some older Catholic thinkers like Augustine and Anselm, sort of. There are Calvinistic as well as Arminianistic theories of soteriology within the RCC as well as out of it. An amusing upshot to this, is that Protestant Calvs and Arms have both been known to complain that the other side is still too beholden to 'Roman Catholic' theology. )

I would look up and past the relevant articles from the most recent edition of the Catechism, but I'm not sure that part of my computer has been reincarnated yet. At any rate, no RCC theologians absolutely would not consider purgatory to be equivalent either to Gehenna or to hades/tartarus. But they would certainly consider it equivalent to St. Paul's "saved as through fire" statement, as well as the Hebraist's "our God is a consuming fire" statement; and possibly GosMark's report of "all shall be salted with fire" and/or Jesus baptizing with fire as well as spirit. (More likely the latter. There was too much confusion and consequent textual jiggering over Mark 9:49, especially in the Latin textual families, to expect them to have had much doctrinal fondness for that bit of text--certainly, based on how the text was variously amended, due to its flagrant grammatic relationship to Gehenna which the RCCs do not consider to be any kind of hopeful punishment.)

There are strong linguistic reasons why the RCCs called it "purgatory"--reasons having to do with hopeful salvation and fire. But again, strictly speaking they wouldn't consider it the same as the operational purpose (so far as they understand it) of the Lake of Fire; not that I recall.

[JasonPratt]

Michael,

Yes, debtor's prison was a part of Greco-Roman culture at the time, and is certainly what's being analogized there. Yes, theoretically they could get out if they repaid their debt. No, practically speaking most people in debtor's prison wouldn't ever be able to work off their debt, and certainly not the unforgiving servant from the parable.

Consequently, defenses against the apparent hope of the saying (whether as part of that parable or standing more alone in the other Gospel) tend to fixate on the amount of debt owed to the master, which is astronomically high, such that the man couldn't pay it back in millions of years at the expected rate of earning from within the prison.


I would say this just outright ignores the reason for why he was in debtor's prison at last, and thus what the master (much moreso our Lord) would rightly expect as proper repayment. It isn't about earning his freedom by paying it off--that's impossible. It's even more impossible, within the terms of the parable itself, than the money-calculators can estimate: because the lord already forgave that debt! The unforgiving servant can't earn his way out by working up a repayment for what his master has already forgiven!

The answer of the riddle of the parable is hinted at pretty plainly; so much so that when proponents for hopelessness here acknowledge its existence, they have to try to argue that the master simply shifts requirements back to the astronomical (but mere) monetary debt. Otherwise, the hopeful answer would be obvious.

What does the scripture say the lord requires of the unforgiving servant? Relatedly, what is the topical context for why Jesus is telling the parable at all?

"How many times must I forgive my brother? Even up to seven times?!"
"I am not saying 'up to seven times' but up to 'seventy times seven'!"
"You wicked slave! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me to! Was it not required of you to forgive your own debtors!?"
"Thus your Father in the heavens will be doing to you, each one of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

It isn't about the money. So, if it isn't about the money, then what is the "final cent" the unforgiving man in prison is required to pay before he can be free?--but which, if he pays it, he will be freed from prison?


(The answer to this question really ought to be "duh"! Not "umpteen million dollars which he can practically never earn back from in debtor's prison, hah!" That, ironically, would be to have what kind of spirit toward the unforgiving man who was put in prison for being... what kind of man?)

[Grace]

Jason ~

oooooh. ok. so the RCC does not differentiate between Hell and the Lake of Fire? thank you for your answer Sir, that helps a lot!

[JasonPratt]

They may technically distinguish between the post-resurrection LoF and the pre-resurrection state in hades; but they consider both to be hopelessly 'hell'.

[Sherman]

Jason, thanks for your notes on the bondage/punishment of the unforgiving servant. Unforgiveness brings us into bondage and the only cure is for us to have a change in heart and forgive. A friend of mine died in a car accident. While dead she saw the Lord and several things happened. She saw and talked to a person who had abused her for several years but had died sometime before that. The person was in some type of a prison and she saw him and shared with her forgiveness for him. This resulted in him being set free from prison and being restored in relationship to her and God. This encounter is what actually led her to believe in UR - that the Lord ultimately makes all things right in His perfect light.

You know, I don't know how God brings reconciliation to all, but I trust that He will and has. We look through a foggy, distored glass when we try to understand eternal realities from our temporal perspective. And all we see are shadows, the substance of which is far beyond our understanding. There is a reconning that we shall al face, an encounter with truth where we shall understand fully the evil ramifications of our actions or lack thereof. But this reconning is not meant to vent the requirements of justice, but meant to bring us healing and forgiveness. This encounter with truth will be terrible, as though by fire, but it will be for our good. The good we've done will be rewarded, but the evil we've done will be consumed.

Sadly, the traditional doctrine of the church speaks of judgment, but it is judgment for others, for non-believers, not judgment we believers. And yet, from the perspective of the parable of the talents, we Christians are 10-talent people for we've been given the greatest gift of all - life in Christ. And thus it seems to me that we should be all the more responsible before God to walk in the freedom, grace, love, joy, and peace of His kingdom! I'm just very thankful that I no longer believe "salvation for me and damnation for others"; rather, my faith is in Jesus the savior of us all! Hallelujah!

[Michael]

they have to try to argue that the master simply shifts requirements back to the astronomical (but mere) monetary debt.

But the Master does seem to reinstate the original monetary debt.

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasse. Matt. 18:32-35.

Yes, debtor's prison was a part of Greco-Roman culture at the time, and is certainly what's being analogized there. Yes, theoretically they could get out if they repaid their debt. No, practically speaking most people in debtor's prison wouldn't ever be able to work off their debt

But given enough time they could (and when the figure of The Master and unmerciful servant give way to The Heavenly Father judgiing His chiidren, maybe unlimited time is implied.)

It''s interesting to me that they had debtors prison at the time.

Thank you Jason.

[JasonPratt]

they have to try to argue that the master simply shifts requirements back to the astronomical (but mere) monetary debt.

But the Master does seem to reinstate the original monetary debt.

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasse. Matt. 18:32-35.

The original monetary debt is reinstated, but not simply so. The punishment is happening not because he defaulted on the monetary debt, but because he was required (literally 'bound', in the sense of a moral obligation) to have mercy as he had been given mercy. The question still goes back to what was due to the king, and what the unforgiving servant has to pay in order to leave the torment.

]Yes, debtor's prison was a part of Greco-Roman culture at the time, and is certainly what's being analogized there. Yes, theoretically they could get out if they repaid their debt. No, practically speaking most people in debtor's prison wouldn't ever be able to work off their debt

But given enough time they could (and when the figure of The Master and unmerciful servant give way to The Heavenly Father judging His children, maybe unlimited time is implied.)

No, I don't believe working off the debt would do the trick now. Or ever would have really, in and of itself.


Years ago, when a friend of mine was trying to write novels (and later that fall she would indeed sell one of the first novels she wrote), she latched onto an idea that summer of a story about a pirate ship serving as purgatory. (She had just seen Pirates of the Caribbean and adored it and wanted to take a swing at writing about pirates, too. I think various magazines did eventually buy some short stories based on this same milieu, but she's been very busy having other novels published since then, and never did get around to writing much of this novel so far as I know.)

She was bouncing some ideas off me as she did some pre-plotting in her head, trying to figure out what atonement should mean, and along the way I recounted some salient points from George MacDonald's 'Unspoken Sermon' on "Justice". (That's in Vol 3, and is hugely important for a lot of reasons, not least for universalists, as I think you already know--but for the sake of anyone who hasn't read it yet... ) That proved a lot to chew on, so I tried to illustrate it by porting the principles into the setting of her novel.

The new first mate is taking a tour of the ship with the captain, and is learning about the crew; across the deck of the ship, they can see a man laboriously trying to make a watch on the deck of the ship while on break between shifts. The crewman's friend is nearby watching this effort--the man doesn't have anything like the right parts and tools, much less the training to do so--and they're talking to one another. The mate asks the captain who he is and why he's there and why he's making the watch; the captain suggests they approach and listen in.

"...so they drag me in front'v th' magister. An' sent'nce me t' twenny lashes."

"Gah. F'r a watch?"

"Yeah." spits. "An' why? What's th' point? I ain't got th' watch anymore. Can't bleed it outta me with th' cat."

"Guess they figgure it'll make y' think twice fore you slip 'er your hand agin!" cackle

snorts "Makes me think twice about givin' up when they chase me! Oh, yeah, right, so I c'n bleed from th' cat. I'll stop runnin' f'r that."

"Maybe y'could strike a deal with' em--let'em kick ya round a little. Saves 'em some time an' effort, an' you keep th' watch."

"I'd go for that--assumin' they caught me. Damn sight better than a catlashin'. Though I guess there'd be no point doin' it if I already fenced th' watch."

"Right. Then it's th' cat f'r sure."

"Yeah, but what's th' point? Guess it gives 'em a job; but she don't have her watch back. Might as well let me go." shrug "An' if I do have th' watch--well, there it is! Take it! No point cattin' me--she got what she wanted! She got th' watch, right? Alls fair 'n square, balances level. But no, they gotta cat me anyway, even if she gets th' watch back."

"Don't seem right."

"That's 'justice' for you." spits.

"Could be worse. I hear tell they kill thieves in th' East."

"Right. Like that's any better."

"Keeps y' from stealin' again, at least, 'n bein' a bother."

"Don't really make anythin' better though, does it?"

"Preachin' to a choirboy here, Ticker."

"Yeah--oh, yeah: an' then th' preacher says I gotta burn forever f'r stealin' th' watch. F'r a watch! Now where's th' good in that!?"

"Jus' means God's like everyone else, I guess. Give 'im any excuse, He'll roast ya."

"Seems like He'd be better off jus' givin' her a damn'd watch, y'd think. Lessee--give her a watch, or burn me forever. Huh. Which one-a-those sets things right?"

"Seems t' me like it'd be givin' her a watch."

"Right! Balances even, all square. But nope, preacher says He's just like everyone else. Any excuse, zorch."

"Like I said."

"Or, look, if the watch means so much t'ya, I'll work it off and buy another one!"

"Lotta workin', I'll bet!"

"Yeah, well, then everythin's all squared up, an' they could just leave me alone. That's all I want, y'know?"

"Yeah, I know. But... if it's so all-fired important, enough t' lash someone or kill 'im or burn 'im forever... how'd a watch get t' be so important?!"

"I dunno. Nothin' makes no sense, so why bother thinkin' on it?"

"Yeah. But... I mean, would givin' her back th' watch really make things right? Is that what it's all about?"

".... I dunno. And really, I don't give much of a shit. I just wanna be left alone. If a watch makes 'em happy, I'll build'em a watch." disgruntled sigh


"And that is why Ticker is on this ship," the Captain said to his mate, as the crewmen trundled off to the galley for supper.

"Understand?"

[Grace]

They may technically distinguish between the post-resurrection LoF and the pre-resurrection state in hades; but they consider both to be hopelessly 'hell'.

so essentially, in Catholic docrine, one suffers in hell until the resurrection, when one is cast into the lake of fire.

my basic complaint with this is basically "come on, is there anyone who's truly that wicked, that they deserve centuries of hellfire, and then an eternity of more fire?" yes, we are sinners, and we do terrible things. i used to figure "ok, as long as i never kill anyone, sexually assault anyone, or burn down any buildings, i'm going to heaven." in Christ, we have the opportunity to realize how wicked, perverse, selfish, ungodly, and truly undeserving we really were, homicide or not. and how undeserved, wonderful, and all-encompassing God's pardon and love are.

in our salvation and freedom from the old nature, we should be encouraged to see hope for our neighbors, not condemn or judge them. if God can find us worth saving and reconciling to Himself, through His Son's blood, how much more so our neighbors, who while not in Christ, do what is right, do their best, and are loved by the Father?

[JasonPratt]

my basic complaint with this is basically "come on, is there anyone who's truly that wicked, that they deserve centuries of hellfire, and then an eternity of more fire?" [...] in Christ, we have the opportunity to realize how wicked, perverse, selfish, ungodly, and truly undeserving we really were, homicide or not.

In their defense, they would probably say you just answered your own question there.

The question of desert is an inevitably tricky one, and I can't say I was ever happy with the various logics involved until I decided universalism is true.

I can now, however, affirm: we, as sinners, deserve annihilation. We don't receive annihilation, only because we also deserve something else even more. But we still receive a kind of annihilation, insofar as possible within that larger deservedness.

We, as sinners, deserve centuries of hellfire, and then an eternity of more fire. I don't think it is impossible that some sinners receive this as punishment, too!--aside from apparent prophetic revelation to the contrary (though I think that exists in the scriptures). That we don't receive this hopelessly (and the theoretical stalemate would not itself be technically hopeless either), is because we also deserve something else even more. But in another way, all of us will end up receiving centuries of the unquenchable fire, and then indeed a never-ending eternity more of that same unquenchable fire. We all will be salted with fire! (But salt is the best of things, and leads to peace with one another when our hearts are salted with the fire.) We cannot get away or out of the Holy Spirit's omnipresence.

We, as sinners, deserve to be saved by God: absolutely not because of anything we have done, but because of Who and What God essentially is. If it was unjust to save anyone, God would not save anyone! Salvation must be just, and so deserved, somehow. God owes us, and pays what He owes, because God is love and we are completely dependent on Him. That's exactly why He punishes us, too.

The saying, as it happens, is true both ways (which shouldn't be surprising for a Jewish religious saying... ) The Lord is coming to pay out everyone according to his work. And to pay out everyone according to His work! The former payment entirely depends on, and is contained within, the latter; and does not occur except within the superior context of the latter.

Or that is what I have come to realize anyway.

[Grace]

Jason ~

really have nothing to add to that. excellent points which i'll have to think a while on, and unpack. you're right in reminding that we do indeed deserve hell, and then some.

The Lord is coming to pay out everyone according to his work. And to pay out everyone according to His work! The former payment entirely depends on, and is contained within, the latter; and does not occur except within the superior context of the latter.

that is my hope. beautifully said, too.

[Paidion]

My understanding is that purgatory originated as a response to Jerome and Augustine's teaching of eternal hell fire. The Catholics of the day were well acquainted with the historic Christian teaching concerning the reconciliation of all things to God. They were well informed as to Origen's teachings about it, for example. They accepted the new everlasting torment teaching of Jerome and Augustine, and yet they were not ready to relinquish the historic teaching of the reconcilation. So they decided to have it BOTH ways... and so it has continued in the RC church to this day.