The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does Christmas present an emasculated God?

I agree there Kate :smiley: - and consumerism isn’t about enjoyment of beauty at all!!!

There are lost of Victorian hymns that dwell on a sentimental picture of Jesus meek and mild.These are a bit yucky. However, if - God became as we are, So that we might become as he is to reflect on God becoming helpless as a little child is not in itself a bad thing. God becoming a child is part of God taking our humanity and there are many Christian poems and paintings and carols that reflect on this mystery without a trace of sentimentality – ‘ The Word being wordless yet speaks a word to us’.

The light comes into the world and like a vulnerable flame it needs to be tended. Saturnalia is not the only root of Christmas. The Jewish festival of Lights that Jesus would have celebrated was also at this time of year.

Also the Orthodox celebrate Christmas on January 6th.

Too true, Kate! This is what really concerns me about Christmas as we experience it. Christmas decorations in mid-October? Gifts given because one “ought to” as opposed to love or gratefulness? The madness of “Black Friday” the day after Thanksgiving, which is actually a big shopping day for Christmas—this is all a concern for me… The induction of Christmas into the ranks of Mammon is far more concerning to me than its roots in Saturnalia. :frowning:

Well then, we should set an example of how to celebrate Christmas, for others to see. Kate’s way is a big step in the right direction.

Oh dear - for the first time this year Black Friday was introduced to the UK. One of the wonderful things about Christmas used to be delayed gratification. And people singing in choirs and rehearsing nativity and such like were so much part of Christmas - and still are and can be - all of which are creative activities rather than passive consumption.

Hi folks

Good thoughts here. As somebody who loves Christmas, I’ll throw my hat in the ring :smiley: .

First off, I agree with Steve (alecf) in endorsing John’s statement in the OP that “God experienced humanity so that humanity might experience God”. Amen. The Incarnation is essential, and central to everything I believe. Not because Jesus came to earth so that he could die in vicarious sacrificial propitiation of God’s anger at our sins - I now find that doctrine both ridiculous and offensive. No, he came to show us the Father, because no-one has ever seen God, and it would be impossible for us to know him otherwise. (Of course, Jesus came to do lots of other things, including teaching, healing and defeating the powers of sin and death.)

So for me, the Incarnation and the birth of Jesus are more ‘worthy’ of celebration than Easter. (Although in his Christmas Carol Service address last Sunday my Dad said almost the exact opposite. I didn’t challenge him about it :smiley: )

Does Christmas present an emasculated God? I’m not sure. I agree with Cindy - and GMac - that God is actually child-like in many important ways, and so the popular Nativity play image of him as gentle Jesus meek and mild doesn’t bother me - as long as it is not used to the exclusion of other, equally essential images of God.

Is it wrong to celebrate Christmas at all, given its pagan antecedents? Not for me. I don’t care about the pagan roots of Christmas - I celebrate Christmas a) to mark the Incarnation, for the reasons cited above; and b) as a holiday, time to spend with my family and loved ones. All the horrible secular consumerism of Christmas I would gladly hoover up and drop wholesale into a very large, very deep hole, along with all the advertising people responsible for all those execrable 'Christmas wouldn’t be Christmas without …" ads. (I’m with Bill Hicks here: “Anyone here in advertising? Please, just kill yourself.”)

And how can you not love Boxing Day? Cold turkey sandwiches, cold sausages and pickled onions, and The Great Escape on TV - a great British tradition. Heavenly!

All the best

Johnny

A Child He was, and had not learnt to speak,
That with His word the world before did make.
His mother’s arms Him bore, He was so weak,
That with one hand the vaults of heaven could shake.
See how small room my infant Lord doth take
Whom all the world is not enough to hold,
Who of His years, as of his age hath told?
Never such age so young, never a child so old

by Giles Fletcher

Hi Pilgrim

I think this poem of the nativity is a delight without being sentimental. It speaks of the same mystery of incarnation stated in the fine couplet you have quoted that has met with wide approval :slight_smile: I think Christmas presents us with a paradoxical picture of God - of strength in weakness, eternity in time etc

O King of our desire whom we despise,
King of the nations never on the throne,
Unfound foundation, cast-off cornerstone,
Rejected joiner, making many one,
You have no form or beauty for our eyes,
A King who comes to give away his crown,
A King within our rags of flesh and bone.
We pierce the flesh that pierces our disguise,
For we ourselves are found in you alone.
Come to us now and find in us your throne,
O King within the child within the clay,
O hidden King who shapes us in the play
Of all creation. Shape us for the day
Your coming Kingdom comes into its own.

Good comment Kate and Steve,

I think that consumerism and drunkenness, etc., are also worse than the pagan source of Saturnalia; but perhaps the results of corruption were inevitable due to the breach with Paul’s warning: “And what union can there be between God’s temple and idols?” (2 Corinthians 6:16 NLT) We were told there can be no union; and yet we disobeyed. The church decided to disregard the Bible and establish its own righteousness. This corruption is the fruit of the decision. This corruption is not new to our day, either; it has found new faces of corruption in each successive generation. The 4th century church introduced so many of our current institutional corruptions; but because of “church worship” (rather worship of God), the corruption has been left unchecked and growing.

The pharisees were adept at making the bad look good, and causing the population to go back to sleep and not worry about displeasing God. Their traditions were all they needed! They were the gatekeepers and the security for the old corrupt system. That ‘type’ has always existed. They make corrupt practices and vices appear to be marginal and acceptable. That is part of what christianity is about; the same forces that were at work in the 1st century are still at work today, and they have never stopped. We are tested by the same lures that the apostles, Judas, and the nation were tested by. That is why so much of the NT is parable - it is an archetype for all ages. It is not relevant to the past only; it is still an ongoing battle-ground which separates people into moral class groups. This is the wheat and weeds, the sheep and goats, and the separation of sheep and sheep (Jeremiah). This is why we are born - to be tested and sifted. We all make our own beds; that is the purpose of us being moral free-will agents.

Steve, you PAPIST! :laughing:

I set you up well for that one, Stef. :smiley:

:smiley:

God as child-like? I can see how this makes sense. The Bible says, “Whoever then humbles himself as a child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:4), and Paul, for example, says “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:11). Therefore, we can deduce that “child-like” is a fitting quality of God in a sense. And yet He is also Father. Much like the duality of man and God, so there is a duality of child and father in our Lord.

Maybe that’s just a load of rambling on my part – quite likely. :wink: :laughing:

Dick, I can hardly believe Black Friday just now appeared in the UK. :astonished: Things get pretty crazy over here – and it’s none too fun. And Boxing Day? Forgive the American, but what is Boxing Day? :laughing:

Well, part of the reason my family has taken a big step in the “right direction” is that we’re too poor to do much else! But back when finances were not a worry, we had our share of Christmastimes in the wrong direction, and I prefer the simplicity of gift-giving now (although I must admit, I do wish the decision for simplicity was more self-imposed. :laughing:)

we’re too poor to do much else!

Bring it on home, sister!! I am pickin’ up what you are layin’ down! I’ve been there, then I wasn’t, now I am there again. :wink:
Involuntary simplicity!

Involuntary simplicity! :laughing: But all is well-- a clean, cozy home filled with Goodwill finds is still a clean, cozy home.:slight_smile:

Hi Kate

Forgive me for jumping in here, but I couldn’t resist :smiley: . Boxing Day is my favourite day of the Christmas holiday. It is the day after Christmas Day, and it is a public holiday in the UK. The tradition here is that it is a family day, when all the Christmas day leftovers are eaten, and everybody chills out after the excesses of Christmas Day itself.

As I have said on another thread, here in dear old Blighty it always used to be a tradition that The Great Escape would be on TV on Boxing Day afternoon. Cold turkey (actual cold turkey, not the John Lennon type :laughing: ; ); cold sausages, pickled onions, a few beers or a glass or three of prosecco, and The Great Escape on TV. Wonderful :smiley: .

And just in passing, if you’ve never seen The Great Escape, with Steve McQueen at his all-time cool best, then you need to get straight down your local Blockbuster and get the DVD. Right now :laughing: .

All the best

Johnny

ahh, watching the boxing day Test at the MCG on tv… what joy :smiley:

Right now, only an Aussie could say that, Davo :laughing: .

We’ll be back!

J

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So Boxing Day is the time where everyone breathes a sign of relief, because the rowdy relatives have all come and gone? :laughing: Then we Americans definitely have Boxing Day, too – and we love it so much, we should really give it a name, as well.

I love Advent, but I rather dread Christmas Day itself, what with all the rush and usually a dysfunctional extended family gathering. :laughing: So perhaps that makes Boxing Day my favorite holiday, too. And the cold turkey sandwiches and other delicious leftovers are the best part of Thanksgiving, as well.

I will look through my library and local video store for The Great Escape. We here don’t have any specifically “after Christmas” shows to watch, but a traditional Thanksgiving movie, which I really like, is Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. (It’s got Steve Martin and John Candy, so how could it go wrong? :smiley: )

That is very intersting. Which dates did the CC choose for thoses masses?
Thanks and blessings
Dani

Those masses were started in the 300s. The first time that was done in honour of the three births of Christ, was the first Chrismas. Some have written that his occured in 324 A.D.

Paidion,
so they celebrated all three masses on the 25th of december?
And did they say that they celebrate the first birth BEFORE ALL AGES?
Blessings
Dani