The Evangelical Universalist Forum

ECF were actually unitarians?

Well, here’s something you ECF specialists might really enjoy, and your comments will benefit all of us, I expect. I have not had a chance to watch the entire 43 minute presentation. Here is the subject:

"Dr. Dale Tuggy of State University of New York (SUNY, Fredonia) presents an illuminating analysis of the Theology/ Christology of four key writers of the 150 CE – 250 CE period. Dr. Tuggy demonstrates that they were “unitarian” in their view of God rather than Trinitarian. The writers considered are Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen. This is a presentation not to be missed by serious students of the history of post-biblical Christian theology. "

Here is the link: youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … Hnlw4iMhE8

Interesting.

I think that the author of the Synoptics did not believe in the trinity.

But philosophically it makes sense if one believes that God is love.

Justin Martyr referred to Christ as “God” and Tertullian coined the word “Trinity”. These acts do not sound like that of a unitarian.

Both those terms are covered in that lecture I linked to - very thoroughly.

Hi Dave,

It appears that Tuggy has a strict 4th century interpretation of “trinitarian”; so his argument is against one particular school of trinitarianism, not taking into account the varying schools of belief which were also labelled trinitarian. As Paidion says, “Justin Martyr referred to Christ as “God” and Tertullian coined the word “Trinity”.” This oversight is very common… the 4th century teaching of the trinity is convenient to polarize, as it is the extreme of trinitarianism. This is, IMO, dishonest. The trinity was portrayed in many different ways prior to the 4th century. Trying to use some of those variations as evidence of Unitarianism is exploitive. It is common enough, though. Almost all Christians have this weakness to exploit an extreme in order to present an alternative view.

No, it is not exploitive. Tuggy was careful to point out in which senses “God” “god” “Trinity” and “trinity” were used.
Did you watch the whole presentation? It sounds like maybe you didn’t follow it all the way through.
Dishonest? Really?

Plus he made a big deal of Universalism with a capital “U” and without - he was very clear on that.

Dave, Tuggy states (7.25) that “the one true God, for Justin, is the God of the Jews. … Justin is a Unitarian.” This is false assumption. Tuggy also has no concept of the purpose of subnumeration and subordination within the trinity. For Tuggy, it must be all or nothing. Justin says: “We worship and adore both Him and the Son who came from Him… and the prophetic spirit.” (8.30) Tuggy says that ‘Justin worships other creatures, and this does not suppose that he held them to be equally divine with the father’. This, to me, is dishonest. Tuggy is creating a false dichotomy by using one extreme of trinitarianism (equally divine) to catapult his Unitarian assumptions. Tuggy again says: “Justin is not a trinitarian… but he is a unitarian.” (9.56). This is a dishonest statement. It is an argument by silence. Just because Justin did not spell out his views comprehensively, the chance is there to exploit his silence, and make him preach that which he never did. Tuggy’s emphasis of the *definite article *is also sloppy research, as has been mentioned on another thread.

Again Tuggy asks: “who, according to Irenaeus, is the one true God? Is it the trinty? or the Father of Jesus?” (12.50) This type of inquiry is dishonest. He has created a false dichotomy of choices based on his own limited understanding. This is similar reasoning that Jehovah’s Witnesses use to bait their unsuspecting inquirer. I don’t care too much for this kind of inquirey because I think it is baiting. I haven’t watched more because I have seen enough. Sorry. I don’t mean to offend you. :slight_smile:

Well, I am not offended!
It’s up to the viewer to decide whether to listen to the full presentation or not.

I know very well that one lecture will not clear up anything, any more than a few essays on the Forum will clear up anything.
I find it all very interesting, nonethless.
I’m pretty well convinced in my own mind about certain things, as well.

:smiley: