The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Did Christ Pre-exist?

(Rank amateur alert: Read at your own risk.)

God cannot be an eternal Lover without an eternally Beloved. When God speaks to himself, he is the Speaker, the Listener, and the Conversation. God cannot be self-conscious unless he is both the observer of God, the God being the observed, and the act of Observation. ie. Christ is the image of God reflected in the mirror of God’s mind, and the light flashing between (as it were) is the Holy Spirit. (To use a physics metaphor, the Spirit is the exchange particle, binding God together.)

Christ doesn’t exist (or pre-exist) in the sense that things exist. He is no thing. He is the source of all things.

I am a non-material mind living in intimate relation to a material body. I am also the mysterious something that mediates between body and mind. Suppose I think a non-material thought: a circle. This thought is somehow mediated to my muscles, and I draw said circle on a piece of paper. A real thought has been made real in the material world. It has moved from mind-space into material-space. The thought is not a muscle. The mediator that links the thought to my muscles is neither thought nor muscle, but something else again. The thought, the mediator and the muscle are all different, and they’re all me. An analogue, perhaps, of the Trinity.

In the same way, Christ mediates the mind of God to the material world. Christ speaks the words given him by the Father. This is his role. He makes God’s thoughts materially real. “By him were all things made.” He always has and always will. This suggests the material universe is an infinite and eternal creation. (According to Aquinas, this notion doesn’t challenge Genesis etc .)

So what we find there is that the ‘definition’ of a soul, is very much intrinsic to this answer of did Christ pre-exist.

So puddyarcher, what do you think the soul is? The biblical definition of being (as what we are is a soul, all breathe, blood, hair, bone and skin), or the soul (the living part of the person), or the soul (a combination of body and spirit) or soul (a part of man the others being spirit and body).

As it appears AllanS and I would disagree on what the soul is, we would have a different answer to what Paul was saying.

The answer is bound up in the nature of God. If Christ is God’s eternally Beloved, and God’s eternal self-image, then he is equal to God in every way. Just as it would be strange to ask if God is “pre-existent”, it would be equally silly to ask the question of Christ.

We either ditch the idea of a self-conscious, loving God, or we ditch the idea of the Trinity.

(a combination of body and spirit)

I find no question silly, and take them all serious. Not everyone believes Christ is God, despite being perfect and given authority by God. Christ is always in submission to a greater authority, and therefore that does not make him equal.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24,26-28 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he (Christ) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

For he “has put everything under his feet.”Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (God) who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

John 6:46 “No one has seen the Father except the one who is *from *God; only he has seen the Father.”

Romans 7:25 “Thanks be to God, who delivers me *through *Jesus Christ our Lord!”

Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God exalted him (Christ) to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue knowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I know this shouldn’t be a trinity debate, however, such things as Pre-existence of Christ always come this point. I believe Christ is important, He is the Head; He has the authority given to Him by God, but He himself is not God, but our Lord and He too is subject to God.

So true, AU! The 1 Cor 15. passage could not be any clearer.

Just a thought given on the fly (all care taken but no responsibility accepted!)

God the Father gives everything to the Son. the Son gives everything in return to the Father, including Himself. Submission though doesn’t imply inferior; Christ ‘submitted’ at the Cross but was not inferior. It is in God’s nature to give to the uttermost.

By the way Allen I like your analogy of the Trinity.

Off to work, Cheers S

In the fullness of time, my body will be in perfect subjection to my mind. Does this mean my mind is the real me, but not my body, or that my body isn’t really human, but merely some sort of non-essential add-on? That would be a very unbiblical view of the human person.

In terms of importance, my mind cannot exist without my body (hence the need for resurrection). Does that make my body superior to my mind? On the other hand, my body without my mind is nothing but meat. Does that make my mind superior to my body? Or are these sorts of questions silly because they attempt to break the unity essential to human persons.

My mind and my body (and the mystery that mediates between them) are all different, all essential, all 100% human, all me. It is possible to distinguish between them, but impossible to break their unity without destroying my life. So too with God, whose image I share. We can distinguish between Father, Son, and the Spirit who joins them. There can be no Father without a Son, no Son without a Father, and neither Father nor Son without the Spirit of Love. All are different, all essential, all 100% divine, all true God of true God), but we cannot break their unity.

AllanS,

As I said, your definition of the soul is what derives your answer and response. You believe that the Soul is tri-part, or dual-part and as such make analogy to the soul being divisible into parts such as the body and the mind, or body and spirit, etc. and so you see your body having a ‘mind of it’s own’ that needs to be in submission to the ‘real mind’ which is in your brain and connect them by saying they are somehow different and unique of their own, but in unity in one man. So your analogy would make a lot of sense to you because that is what you believe the soul to be, a multiple divisible parts in unity of one soul. I used to believe that too.

This is the reality:

Genesis 2:7
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 “So also it is written, The first man became a living soul. The last man became a life-giving spirit. Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.”

He is still a man. He is the last man, a spiritual man, He came from heaven instead of earth, but a man born of God, a Son in submission to His Father.

To create a strawman to argue against, is not particularly helpful.

I also see you continue to infer that these questions are silly, in order to somehow devalue them or make the person who questions in this manner, silly and should ‘smart up’. As if you are in the position to make such claims of what is a silly question or not. Just pointing this out.

Of course the Father and Son are in unity, this is not in dispute. The Scripture is very clear that the Son only does as the Father commands. It is also very clear that the Son is Lord and the Father is God, and the Son is the perfect image of the invisible God and distinctively never God himself. Christ is always in submission to God, as we will always be in submission to God; even when God is all in all, we will be in perfect harmony with God, yet we are not God and will not be God.

I used to believe in the orthodox Trinitarian position, just as I used to believe in the orthodox conditional salvation position. They are, in my opinion and experience, bad religion justifying more unsupportable doctrines and have very little scriptural support or logical sense in the greater picture of things.

At no time do I devalue who Jesus is, or his authority in which He was given over all things, except God Himself.

Blessings brother,

I agree. We don’t have a soul. We are a soul. But I do have an arm, an ear and a leg: united, distinct, interdependent, all equally human. In the same way, I have a mind (made from the breath of God) and a body made of dust (atoms etc). Body and mind are united, distinct, interdependent, both equally me, both equally human. There’s nothing dualistic about it, no more than arms and legs are dualistic.

God also consists of distinct “parts”, eternally co-existent, united, interdependent, all equally God.

An eternal Father is impossible without an eternal Son. There was never a “time” when God (who is Love) did not exist in loving relationship. Love is meaningless without relationship, since love is all about giving and receiving. The Father gives himself utterly to the other, to the Son, and the Son gives himself utterly to the Father. This divine love, this exchange, this endless, positive feedback loop, is the eternal life that lies at the heart of all reality. This is why the Son (at his Father’s bidding) gave himself utterly to us, and why he invites us to give ourselves utterly to him in return. To do so is eternal life. Refusing to do so will be ever deepening torment.

From another angle, we distinguish an image from the real thing by imperfections found in the image. But Christ is the perfect image of God, identical to his Father in every way that actually matters. ie. In essence, they are indistinguishable. Seeing the Son with the eyes of faith, we don’t see a man (no matter how virtuous). We see the Father.

Some questions are silly. How blue is three miles?

Good.

My body does as my mind commands. My body and mind are equally human.

My mind is Lord, and my body is Servant. Both body and mind are equally human, and equally me.

Yes. The perfect image. In essence, there is no difference between Father and Son. If there was an essential difference, the Son would be an imperfect image.

There’s an essential difference between the Creator and the Created. Though images of God, we can never be perfect images.

Never too late to do a re-think. :slight_smile:

God sits in heaven. Sin is a big problem. What will he do? Will he get off his comfortable throne and descend into darkness. Will he fight sin and death? Will suffer for our sake? Will he restore his own broken handiwork, no matter the personal cost? No He won’t! Not at all. He’ll make a Son out of thin air. He’ll send this Son to do the heavy lifting. God will not dirty his hands. No. No. He is far too precious. Too delicate. Too holy to touch sin. Let Jesus die for the world. God will look on from a safe, sanitary distance, applaud Jesus’ great efforts, slap him on the back when all is done, promote him to Top Dog, and give him a serious prize for winning the day. All praise to the Great God, whose love is never tested in the fire, and who willingly sends others out to fight His battles.

You propose some intelligent arguments Allen, but could you explain what separates some your thinking from that of philosophy? Do you feel philosophy is important in leading us to an understanding of God, and ultimate truth? -thanks.

Your last post has nothing to do with if Christ Pre-Exists.

Who here says God is doing nothing?

Jesus said, “Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” John 5:19

So your rant is off base concerning what I believe, but makes sense to you considering what you believe, and those of your same understanding of the doctrines of sin, trinity, soul, etc. In this example, your understanding of what is sin compels you to respond this way. It is why you have come to this conclusion and to cover this present understanding need to reconcile it by believing in the Trinity, that Jesus Himself is God, and not the Son of God who came from His Father, God. I said you believe what you believe because your doctrines have set you up to believe it in this way, not that it makes sense according to the Scriptures, or if for any reason your definitions of sin and the soul change.

Paul said, “For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6

Jesus said, "You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

I used to believe sin was something too, that it is not. I also was compelled by this definition of sin, that Jesus had to have been God and I also was compelled to believe that because sin was that thing which dictated what salvation is.

All truth is God’s truth. :slight_smile:

The Son “pre-exists” in precisely the same way the Father “pre-exists”. (But as I’ve indicated, I think all questions about God’s existence are silly (ie. they lack sense.) God doesn’t exist like a rock exists (because God isn’t a thing). Rather, he is the source of all existence.

Jesus was the one on the cross. Where was God? Was he in Christ, or was he in heaven? Was he bleeding, or was he letting someone else bleed?

If someone has my thumb in a vice, does my body suffer, does my mind suffer, or is it a silly distinction? In the same way, because they are one God, the suffering of the Son is also the suffering of the Father. Christ is no mere stand-in. No divine patsy. In Christ, God himself descends into our darkness.

Just as the Son obeys the Father, so my body obeys my mind. My body minus my mind is nothing but meat. Just as the Son does nothing, and is nothing, apart from the Father, my body does nothing and is nothing apart from my mind. This is not to say my body is not me. Both body and mind are fully human. In the same way, both Father and Son are fully God.

If I was ranting, I’d say your view of God is Islamic. :open_mouth: I reject Allah for the same reasons I reject unitarian concepts of God. Both are unworthy. Both diminish the glory.

Yes. In a similar way, I am a mind who rules, and a body who obeys. My mind animates my body by giving itself to me, and in return, my body holds my mind in existence.

My mind is greater than my body because it’s made from God’s breath, not from dust. This does not mean my body is not equally human and equally me.

Sin is nothing, void, empty, dark, absolute zero. It’s the primaeval chaos of Genesis 1. Being non-existent, the Dark cannot be destroyed. It can only be filled with Light. But the pit is very deep! God himself must come down from heaven and descend into the Deep, because only his boundless Light can fill that boundless Darkness. This is why Christ came, why he died, and why he descended into hell. This is why, at the end of days, there will be a new heaven, a new earth, but no sea. No chaos. Nowhere. This is why there will be no sun in the new world, because in Christ, God himself has come down and will be with us forever.

When we read “the second man is of heaven” does this refer to Christ’s pre-existence as the Lord out of heaven, (coming to be the babe in Bethlehem) or is it referring to his present state after resurrection and ascention? I am not sure how to take Paul’s words.

(Warning: Amateur at work. Read at own Risk.)

In Genesis we begin with the heavens above and the earth below, all in darkness. God speaks a creative Word. This Word reveals the mind of God, and instantly, the darkness above is filled with the light of God. Not photons, but wisdom, life, love etc. (Proverbs tells me God’s firstborn in Creation was wisdom. “Firstborn” meaning “preeminent”.) However, the divine Light does not penetrate the darkness below. God must make the sun, moon and stars to bring us light. (ie. he gives us the law and the prophets.) The will of God is done in heaven, but not yet done on earth. Note, we’re not doing science here, but theology. The earth in Genesis 1 isn’t referring to our planet, but to every dark corner of reality in which the will of God is not yet done.

God makes a bubble in the dark, chaotic sea, banishes the sea from the land, and commands the land to be fruitful. At his word, it springs to life. Of course it does. It’s been set free from chaos. God even fills the Deep with creatures (one of which swallows poor Jonah).

But it’s a leaky bubble. A tiny bit of chaos squeezes its way into Eden, as Adam soon discovers to his loss. We are descended from this man. (Again, we’re not talking biology or anthropology, but theology.) We are born of Adam. Adamah means “of the earth”, but it’s not “earth the planet”. That’s thinking like a modern scientist. The Biblical earth is the dark region of chaos lying beneath heaven, a place in which the will of God is not yet done. I also am an earth-man, a man in which the will of God is not yet done, a man in which there exists vast regions of darkness and many a shadowy corner. As Jesus said, we are all “born of water”.

God speaks another creative Word from heaven. Christ is that Word, the heavenly man in whom the will of God is done. Christ reveals the mind of God, saying, “Be ye perfect!” This is no less a command than “Let there be light!” However, the tense of the verb isn’t present imperative, but future indicative. ie. The re-creation of all things has begun. In Christ, humanity is being re-born, born of the heavenly spirit. The whole cosmos is being re-born. “Those living in a land of darkness have seen a great light.” The light of God has entered our dark world and will never be extinguished. Day by day, the darkness is being driven back.

Jesus said, unless a man is born of water (chaos) and of the Spirit (divine order, love, life), he cannot enter the kingdom.

In other words, it is impossible to enter heaven unless you first come from the hellish chaos that exists beneath heaven. This is obvious once you see it. Everything that God made began in the void. We all move (as it were) from non-being into being, from darkness into light, and the process isn’t always comfortable. It’s especially unpleasant when you’re half-way there. Half-baked. “Who shall deliver me from this body of death” etc.

My own growing realization is that Christ Pre-existed. Yet I think there is too much philosophy used in support of the trinity, and too much tradition and emotion attached to this discussion for Christendom to ever change it’s mind. This is my final public contribution to this website. It is hoped that i have always been considerate to those using the EU, but i am aware I am human. - I wish both my older and newer articles had been more articulate, and am sure I made quite a few biblical errors (that should be polished) but I won’t make any changes now. (I promise)

I guess lately I have just become insecure. I don’t think I am considered to have a mind of my own. Recently I started a thread on forex trading, and I may have done this to show there is another side to me. That I do make my own decisions in life. I wish everyone all the very best. Send me a private message AU, and I will give you my email. Sorry Davo that I never responded back to your article in LOF thread.

Puddy

I don’t understand. In what way am I the odd man out? Are you denying my Canadian Citizenship?

And if you are a Canadian, why are you calling July 1 “Dominion Day”. That name has not been used since Oct 27, 1982.

Never a problem Puddy… keep your head up and enjoy your journey, blessings!! :slight_smile:

I believe that it is the resurrection, which of course, He is the firstfruits and literally IS the resurrection, as we live through Him.

The value of the resurrection is missed in a lot of discussion. Paul said it was his hope. Jesus continually spoke of it. It is one of the elementary doctrines, that well, most people don’t think of or give a second thought.

1 Corinthians 15:12-16
Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.

(side note: notice that Christ died, and GOD raised Him from the dead)

**Hebrews 6:1-2 **
Now these are the elementary teaching about the Christ, laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment let us move on from these things and press on to maturity.

(side note: notice that the elementary teachings of Christ has nothing to do with Him being God.)

Acts 23:6
But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!”

In any case, as it appears this is puddyarchers last post, and probably mine for awhile as I go back to my real life, the resurrection of the dead is our hope, and an elementary teaching that most Christians (let alone most Universalists) have no idea or clue on how to address and what it really means.

Whether his pre-existence is due to the resurrection? It was most definitely in His ascention.

Ephesians 4:10
He Who descended is the [very] same as He Who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that He [His presence] might fill all things (the whole universe, from the lowest to the highest).

That includes time (the 4th Dimension) itself. He most definitely pre-existed when he ascended to fill all things.