Did Jesus die in our place?

Disccusions about the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:00 pm

The "penal substitutionary theory of the atonement" seems to pervade all Chistendom. But is it apostolic teaching? Proponents of the theory presume that Jesus had to die in order to appease the wrath of God who is angry about man's sin, and would otherwise punish sinners with eternal torment, or at least annihilation. But since God must have "justice" (interpreted as penalty for sin), He was satisfied to see sin punished through seeing His beloved Son tortured on the cross who bore the punishment in place of all mankind, so that He wouldn't have to punish anyone else unless they rejected Christ's substitutionary death on their behalf.

However, I asseverate that this view is found neither in the words of Jesus nor in those of His disciples.

There are at least 5 passages that affirm that Jesus died FOR people: Rom 5:6, 5:8, 14:15, 2 Cor 5:4, and 1 Thess 5:10. In each of of these, the preposition is "ὑπερ" (huper) a word that means "for the sake of" or "for the benefit of". Nowhere does it say that Jesus died "ἀντι" (anti)—"in the place of" people.

However, there is one passage that could be so interpreted if the context is ignored. Two of Jesus' disciples, James and John, wished to sit, one at each side of Jesus in His Kingdom, and their mother tried to make it happen. She approached Jesus about it to get His assent.The other disciples were displeased.

Matt 20:24-27 NKJV
And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers. But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."


This time, the second last word "for" is the translation of "ἀντι" (anti)—"in the place of." Many presume that Jesus was talking about His coming death here. But I suggest that He didn't change the subject in the middle of his statement. He said that He (the Son of Man) did not come to be served, but to serve. Indeed He gave His life to serve. He gave His whole life as a ransom (a means of deliverance) of many from their bondage of illness, blindness, deafness, lameness, from bondage to demons, and much else. His life was given in place of the suffering lives of others, so that they wouldn't need to suffer any longer. Jesus used up His life—all of His days in place of others, so that they wouldn't have to suffer.

Christians throughout the ages have also given their lives (or part of their lives) to serve others. Such are the most Christ-like acts a Christian can do.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby steve7150 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:00 pm

He gave His whole life as a ransom (a means of deliverance) of many from their bondage of illness, blindness, deafness, lameness, from bondage to demons, and much else. His life was given in place of the suffering lives of others, so that they wouldn't need to suffer any longer. Jesus used up His life—all of His days in place of others, so that they wouldn't have to suffer.









It's a good observation Paidion and does make sense but in Matt 20.18-19 Jesus does talk about his atonement and ends by saying "and the third day he shall rise again" plus in a parallel section in Luke 18.31-34 Luke specifically groups the two sections together ending with "and the third day he shall rise again" so Luke it seems took this as a reference to the ransom and as pertaining to the atonement.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:54 pm

17 ¶ And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them,
18 “See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death
19 and deliver him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”


Yes, this speaks of His death. I don't see the word "atonement" in those verses.
Apparently, the NKJV translators believed that the subject was changed, beginning in verse 20, since they use the appropriate symbol to indicate such.

And yes, Jesus predicts His death also in the Luke 18 passage. I am not denying the benefits of Jesus death and resurrection for us, that through His death the enabling grace of God is appropriated. If that's what you mean by "the atonement" then I'm all for it!

However, the word "atonement" doesn't even occur in the NKJV, NASB, YLT, ASV, ESV, and RSV translations of the New Testament.
The word occurs once in the AV (Rom 5:11), but it doesn't even mean "atonement" in that verse; it means "reconciliation." So why use a word that does not occur in the New Testament? And the concept of Jesus's death as a substitution for us, so that we don't have to receive God's wrath, is nowhere found in the NT.

Even Isaiah 53, that is sometimes used to prove "the substitutionary atonement" (e.g. "The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all") reads quite differently in the Greek Septuagint translation, which, it seems, the NT writers used when quoting the OT scriptures.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby davo » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:45 pm

“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:42 pm

Perhaps the understanding of the purpose of Jesus' death should be repeatedly experienced.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby steve7150 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:31 am

And yes, Jesus predicts His death also in the Luke 18 passage. I am not denying the benefits of Jesus death and resurrection for us, that through His death the enabling grace of God is appropriated. If that's what you mean by "the atonement" then I'm all for it!









But the wages of sin is death and we all sin yet we all have the opportunity for eternal life. Scripture also says Jesus will save his people from their sins , so if he died "for the benefit of" or "for the sake of" then how can you say "eternal life" is not a benefit?
You can claim "enabling grace" is a benefit and i'm not disagreeing but isn't "eternal life" a benefit? I'm not arguing why we obtain eternal life in other words whether or not it's to satisfy God but simply that "eternal life" is in fact a benefit to mankind.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:01 am

Well yes. Eternal life is perhaps the greatest possible benefit. Have I denied this?
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby steve7150 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:36 am

Well yes. Eternal life is perhaps the greatest possible benefit. Have I denied this?











No, but until now i don't recall you affirming it although i could have missed it. So if Jesus died "for the benefit of us" so that we may obtain eternal life and enabling grace , the difference between Jesus dying in our place or for the benefit of us seems to me to be getting pretty immaterial. It may even be just a matter of semantics.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby St. Michael » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:48 am

When Jesus got up at the last supper before the drinking of the 4th cup of wine he went to the garden and prayed:

Let this cup pass from me. Though not my will but Yours be done.



The Bible speaks about this cup:


Jeremiah 25:15-17

For thus the LORD, the God of Israel, says to me, "Take this cup of the wine of wrath from My hand and cause all the nations to whom I send you to drink it. "They will drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword that I will send among them." Then I took the cup from the LORD'S hand and made all the nations to whom the LORD sent me drink it


Psalm 75:8

For a cup is in the hand of the LORD, and the wine foams; It is well mixed, and He pours out of this; Surely all the wicked of the earth must drain and drink down its dregs.

Jeremiah 51:7

Babylon has been a golden cup in the hand of the LORD, Intoxicating all the earth The nations have drunk of her wine; Therefore the nations are going mad.

Zechariah 12:2-3

"Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. "It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.

Revelation 14:10

he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Jeremiah 49:12

For thus says the LORD, "Behold, those who were not sentenced to drink the cup will certainly drink it, and are you the one who will be completely acquitted? You will not be acquitted, but you will certainly drink it.

Lamentations 4:21

Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, Who dwells in the land of Uz; But the cup will come around to you as well, You will become drunk and make yourself naked.

Habakkuk 2:16

"You will be filled with disgrace rather than honor. Now you yourself drink and expose your own nakedness The cup in the LORD'S right hand will come around to you, And utter disgrace will come upon your glory.

Revelation 16:19

The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Revelation 18:6

"Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.




The cup of wine (blood) is a cup of wrath. Indeed, for us it's the cup of salvation as we drink the blood (love of Christ)



Psalm 116:13

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.


Psalm 16:5

The LORD is the portion of my inheritance and my cup; You support my lot.



Indeed, Jesus asks His disciples:


Matthew 20:22

Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.”



In faith union we are crucified with Christ. Ego death is a painful crucifixion where the old self dies and a new self is resurrected. Paul said "I die daily"

1 Cor. 15:31

I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.



Drinking the love of Christ washes away our sins. We die with Christ. It's a painful ego puncturing. It's the same for those in the Lake of fire. They are baptized and reduced to nothing (ashes). They become an empty vessel for the Spirit to fill. Indeed, it's a baptism in a lake - into water death and fire. A painful ego puncturing that includes God's wrath.


Revelation 14:10

he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.



Those in the lake of fire will be crucified with Christ as the die to self and resurrected to new life.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby davo » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:07 am

steve7150 wrote:…the difference between Jesus dying in our place or for the benefit of us seems to me to be getting pretty immaterial. It may even be just a matter of semantics.

This is partly what I was pointing out in that former thread… it’s isn’t so much a case of either/or but both, i.e., differing aspects of the redemptive scheme.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:51 am



Lol, I thought the same thing.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:03 pm

Steve wrote:
I wrote:Eternal life is perhaps the greatest possible benefit. Have I denied this?


No, but until now i don't recall you affirming it although i could have missed it. So if Jesus died "for the benefit of us" so that we may obtain eternal life and enabling grace , the difference between Jesus dying in our place or for the benefit of us seems to me to be getting pretty immaterial.


It's not immaterial. It's far more than a matter of semantics. There's all the difference in the world!

1. The Penal Substitution Theory (Jesus dying in our place):

Jesus died to appease the wrath of an angry God. Jesus died in our place in that He took the punishment that we deserved instead of us. As a result, we are clothed with Christ's righteousness, so when God looks at us, He doesn't see our sin, but Christ's righteousness. Thus God will not punish us; His need to punish sin was satisfied by punishing Christ on the cross. God forsook Him, for He cried out in anguish, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." All our sins were laid on Jesus so that we get off scott free. Even if we deliberately continue in sin, we'll get to heaven anyway, since Jesus paid the price for us by dying to let us off the hook. Otherwise, God, who cannot tolerate sin, would have to punish us in hell forever. Eternal life with God is the great benefit of Jesus dying in our place.

2. The Biblical Teaching of Salvation from Sin (Jesus dying for our benefit—to deliver us from sin):

The angel declared to Joseph, "You will call His name "Jesus" (Saviour) because He will save His people from their sins." (Matt 1:21)
The angel didn't say, ".... because He will save His people from hell" or "... from punishment." We do read that God gave His only-begotten Son so that whoever entrusts himself to Him should not perish but have lasting life" (John 3:15). But to entrust oneself to Christ results in being delivered from sin, and this is a requirement for obtaining lasting (or "eternal") life.

Paul made it clear in Romans 2 that righteousness is necessary in order to acheive immortality and receive lasting (or "eternal") life:

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)


Yes persistence in well-doing is necessary to gain immortality and "eternal" life. Continuing to practise evil results in affliction and anguish. But present this to anyone who has subscribe to the Penal Substitution Theory, and they will immediately accuse you of "works righteousness" or "trying to get to heaven by good works." They are blind to the fact this this NT teaching of deliverance for sin and self, by the grace made available through Christ's death, is the means by which "eternal" life is granted.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)


How do we appropriate this enabling grace? We appropriate it through faith. Jesus died to provide this enabling grace, and by trusting Him to do so, it becomes a reality in our lives. The consequence is salvation from sin (a life-long process) and everlasting life with God.

We cannot through self-effort consistently overcome sin, and God will not unilaterally save us from sin. But "working together with Him" salvation from sin becomes a reality.

At this point, the believer in substitutionary atonement will declare, "So are you perfect now?" He believes that this understanding is a proclamation of "sinless perfection." Well, it does look forward to the goal of perfection. Salvation from sin is a life-long process:

As Paul declared in Philippians 1:6 (ESV)

I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.


In my late teens, the only "salvation message" I had ever heard was that of penal substitution. But when Tom O'shiro, became the pastor of the little Baptist Church I had attended, I soon realized that he never preached that view. He was always speaking about submitting to Christ. I wondered when he was ever going to preach the gospel (that Christ died as our substitute, and that we had to accept Him as our personal Saviour, so that we would go to heaven instead of hell.)

I used to be a young people's leader at the time. One day, Tom realized from what I had said to the young people, that I had a great misunderstanding of salvation. So he asked me, "Don, what are we saved from?" I knew the scriptural answer, and so I replied, "From sin." Then he asked, "And what does that mean?" I answered, "That means that we are saved from the result of sin." I had in mind that we "get saved" we are saved from hell. Tom then affirmed, "Don, nowhere does it say that we are saved from the result of sin. It says that we are saved from SIN!"

Well I wasn't ready to accept that at the time. But Tom's words planted a seed in my heart that eventually bore fruit. The day came when I realized he was right, and when I truly entered the door of salvation. Many years later, I gave testimony to this at a meeting in which Tom was present. He asked me whether he could relate this testimony to his congregation in the east. Of course, I agreed.

Tom spent the last 25 years of his life in service at The Mustard Seed in Victoria. People loved him so much that he could scarcely walk more than a few steps without somebody approaching him and hugging him. Please look at this short 4½ minute video of his retirement from Mustard Seed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U360Bdb78Ok

And an earlier one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUFzjbPlfUI

Tom died last June at the age of 89.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby DaveB » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:23 pm

Thanks Don. I watched the first video just now and he appears to have been quite a man, with hard shoes to fill I expect.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby St. Michael » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:30 pm

Yes persistence in well-doing is necessary to gain immortality and "eternal" life. Continuing to practise evil results in affliction and anguish. But present this to anyone who has subscribe to the Penal Substitution Theory, and they will immediately accuse you of "works righteousness" or "trying to get to heaven by good works." They are blind to the fact this this NT teaching of deliverance for sin and self, by the grace made available through Christ's death, is the means by which "eternal" life is granted.



Let's ask John Piper


50 Reasons Why Jesus Came To Die

1. To absorb the wrath of God

2. To free us from the slavery of sin

3. That we may die to sin and live for righteousness

4. To please His heavenly Father

5. To achieve His own resurrection from the dead

6. To show God's love and grace to sinners

7. To cancel the legal demands of the law against us

8. To become a ransom for many

9. For the forgiveness of our sins

10. To provide the basis for our justification

11. To complete the obedience that becomes our righteousness

12. To take away our condemnation

13. To abolish circumcision and all rituals as the basis for salvation

14. To bring us to faith and keep us faithful

15. To give us a clear conscious

16. To make us holy

17. To obtain for us all things that are good for us

18. To heal us from moral sickness

19. To give eternal life to all who believe in Him

20. To deliver us from the present evil age

21. To reconcile us to God

22. To bring us to God

23. So that we might belong to Him

24. To give us confident access to the holy place

25. To become for us the place where we meet God

26. To bring the Old Testament priesthood to an end

27. Become our High Priest

28. Free us from the futility of our ancestry

29. So that we would die to the law and bear fruit for God

30. To enable us to live for Christ and not ourselves

31. To make His cross the ground of all our boasting

32. To enable us to live by faith in Him

33. To give marriage it's deepest meaning

34. To create people passionate for good works

35. To call us to follow His example of lowliness and love

36. To create crucified followers

37. To free us from the fear of death

38. So that we will be with Him after death

39. To secure our resurrection from the dead

40. To disarm the rulers and authorities

41. To unleash the power of God in the Gospel

42. To destroy hostility between the races

43. Ransom people from every tribe and nation

44. Gather His sheep from around the world

45. Rescue us from final judgment

46. Gain His joy and ours

47. So that He would be crowned with glory

48. To show the worst evil in human history was meant by God for good.

49. To learn obedience and be perfected

50. Become a sympathetic helpful priest


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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:41 pm

I'm glad you appreciated Brother O'Shiro, Dave. I hadn't found out that he died until today, and so I had a time of grief. Interestingly, when the Baptist Church hired him, they thought they were getting an Irish man (O'Shiro). I think some of them were a little shocked at first to discover that he was Japanese.

Michael, the New Testament doesn't give all those reasons for Christ's death. And some of them don't apply.

Take #9 for example: "For the forgiveness of sins." If Jesus' death were necessary for the forgiveness of sins, then how was He able to forgive sins while He walked this earth prior to His death?

True, that expression is found in many TRANSLATIONS. For example:

Acts 13:38 (ESV) Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.


But that little Greek word "αφεσις" (aphesis), though It might mean "forgiveness" in some instances, it more often does not. The verbal form can mean "to leave" or "to forsake". For example Acts 13:38 perhaps should read "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you for the forsaking of sins." Or perhaps "freedom from sins."

And here is a passage whose meaning would be ludicrous, if "αφεσις" were translated as "forgiveness":

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim forgiveness to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set in forgiveness those who are oppressed.


The captives don't need forgiveness; they need freedom. The oppressed don't need forgiveness; they need liberty.

Virtually every translation has something very similar to the NKJV:

To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed.


In the following passage, consider how much more sense the reddened words make when translated "freedom from sins" instead of "forgiveness of sins." This is Paul talking to his Jewish brethren:

Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man freedom from sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:38,39)
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby St. Michael » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:57 pm

Even if that's true about forgiveness John Piper and others who believe in Penal Substitution believe in freedom from sins. Indeed, it's on the list I gave from John Piper. Yes Christ died for the benefit of expiating and cleansing and freeing us of our sins. This happens to a large degree when we come into faith union with Christ and are crucified. According to John Owen:

God might punish the elect either in their own persons, or in their surety standing in their room and stead as their substitute; and when he is punished, they are also punished: for in this point of view the federal head and those represented by him are not considered as distinct, but as one....they are one body in mystical union, yea, one mystical Christ; namely, the surety is the head, those represented by him the members, and when the head is punished, the members are also punished.



Of course, the cross is across time and not time bound. So ego puncturing can happen tomorrow even though Christ was slain some 2000 years ago. For some, being crucified with Christ happens daily or over a period of time. I may agree with you about forgiveness. If our sins are blotted out and remembered no more then there's nothing to forgive.
Last edited by St. Michael on Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby steve7150 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:58 pm

1. The Penal Substitution Theory (Jesus dying in our place):

Jesus died to appease the wrath of an angry God.









But the reason he died "to appease the wrath of an angry God" i don't think is really biblical , more like a church doctrine perhaps associated with eternal torment. Take away that reason and "dying in our place" doesn't sound that different from "for our benefit" as i see it.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:53 pm

St Michael said: Yes persistence in well-doing is necessary to gain immortality and "eternal" life. Continuing to practise evil results in affliction and anguish. But present this to anyone who has subscribe to the Penal Substitution Theory, and they will immediately accuse you of "works righteousness" or "trying to get to heaven by good works." They are blind to the fact this this NT teaching of deliverance for sin and self, by the grace made available through Christ's death, is the means by which "eternal" life is granted


St Michael said, Let's ask John Piper :D


50 Reasons Why Jesus Came To Die

All Right ST Michael, not necessarily knowing which position you have taken, I've taken a considerable amount of time to counter what Mr. Piper has alleged. My response is in the parentheses :lol: And I have to say that I have not read the book but am just responding to what ST Michael has said the book has said, though it makes for great debate non the less :lol:

1. To absorb the wrath of God (I agree that the wrath of God is totally taken away by Christ)

2. To free us from the slavery of sin (Christ is the Atonement for Israel and in total, the nations. He took away the sin of the world!)

3. That we may die to sin and live for righteousness (Our dying to sin is a temporal condition in 2017. In Jesus' time they needed to make a decision about the Messiah so they could escape the coming wrath.)

4. To please His heavenly Father :D

5. To achieve His own resurrection from the dead (Not sure what this means)

6. To show God's love and grace to sinners (Love and grace is ultimately realized when we understand the total redemptive value of Christ to the Israelites and thus the rest of humanity)



7. To cancel the legal demands of the law against us (the problem is that all Calvinist's want to cancel all legal demands by saying only certain ones are chosen)

8. To become a ransom for many (Ransom for Israel, and thus the atoning work for all humanity)

9. For the forgiveness of our sins (yep, through Jesus all of the sin problem with God was taken care of. Be advised that we will still sin in the temporal /fleshly realm)

10. To provide the basis for our justification (Yes, Christ is our justification. We need to do nothing. He has done it all

11. To complete the obedience that becomes our righteousness (NO NO NO HE IS OUR RIGHTIOUSNESS)

12. To take away our condemnation (It goes without saying Christ took sin upon himself)

13. To abolish circumcision and all rituals as the basis for salvation (duh)

14. To bring us to faith and keep us faithful (Christ wants all to love their neighbors as them selves)

15. To give us a clear conscious (when we understand what Christ has truly done, and the scope of the sacrifice and gift, we can truly have peace)

16. To make us holy (I have a hard time being holy, and I am thankful that I don't have to be because of Christ)

17. To obtain for us all things that are good for us(yes we benefit from following Christ's teachings)

18. To heal us from moral sickness (good luck with that)

19. To give eternal life to all who believe in Him (a seven hour old baby that dies, a mentally challenged person, a tribal person that has never heard of Christ, are we really saying that some how God is going to turn His back on them?)

20. To deliver us from the present evil age ( First of all, All of the New testament was written some two thousand years ago to people that were very far removed from our culture and understanding)

21. To reconcile us to God (yepper, we through Christ are reconciled to God. Thank the Lord AMEN)

22. To bring us to God (in Christ's time he was sent as a prophet to warn the Israelites of their coming doom if they did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.)

23. So that we might belong to Him (We all belong to him. HE FREEKING MADE US)

24. To give us confident access to the holy place ( Read Hebrews :lol: )

25. To become for us the place where we meet God (no, Christ Died so The promises to Israel could be fulfilled, and unfortunately, He also foretold of the coming calamity that was about to overtake the Jewish nation at that time.)

26. To bring the Old Testament priesthood to an end (ABSOLUTLY)

27. Become our High Priest (YES SIR)

28. Free us from the futility of our ancestry (YEPPER)

29. So that we would die to the law and bear fruit for God (so that the first century Jews would rethink their reliance on the law and realize Jesus was the real deal)

30. To enable us to live for Christ and not ourselves (Jesus said , love your neighbor as your self. I'm not sure he ever said to live for him. Though Paul definitely had that slant)

31. To make His cross the ground of all our boasting ( :?: it depends on what your view of the cross means to you)

32. To enable us to live by faith in Him (actually, we just need to understand the Faith that God had in humanity to send us HIS SON to die so we can be reconciled to Him, thus our understanding has nothing to do with the reconciliation, but that it simply is a matter of 'understanding' that will change peoples lives)

33. To give marriage it's deepest meaning (no comment)

34. To create people passionate for good works (what is one persons good works is another's burden)


35. To call us to follow His example of lowliness and love (yes yes)

36. To create crucified followers (I have no Idea what this means)

37. To free us from the fear of death (Oh God , if John Piper could ever believe tis for all of humanity there would be angels rejoicing in the heavens :lol: )

38. So that we will be with Him after death (we believe in the resurrection)

39. To secure our resurrection from the dead .(yes, Christ did this, no need on our part to do anything. Christ was the total sufficiency for all of humankinds BS.)

40. To disarm the rulers and authorities (not sure about this , I'll get back to you)

41. To unleash the power of God in the Gospel (my friend, the power has been unleashed, the new covenant has been instituted, The new creation is at hand no matter haw hard humans try to rebel against the fact)

42. To destroy hostility between the races (ALL OF HUMANITY)

43. Ransom people from every tribe and nation (ALL OF HUMANITY)

44. Gather His sheep from around the world (this verbiage is indicative of the understanding that Christ was talking to first century Jews who were about to experience the wrath of God if they did not listen to Jesus)

45. Rescue us from final judgment (that through Christ has already been accomplished)

46. Gain His joy and ours (not sure what is meant)

47. So that He would be crowned with glory (yes all the saints are crowed with glory, thus our admonition to follow the first century saints and martyrs to follow Christ)

48. To show the worst evil in human history was meant by God for good. (I believe in free will.)

49. To learn obedience and be perfected (okay, I agree to a point)

50. Become a sympathetic helpful priest (Yes our life is to help others, to become servants, to die to self centeredness so others may live.)

So, I would welcome some (and I am sure many will come) criticisms that I have with St Michael's portrayal of Mr. Pipers book.
Last edited by maintenanceman on Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby St. Michael » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:07 pm

Maintenace,

I don't agree with all of it just some of it. If you want to see my summary of what being crucified with Christ is see my post above the Piper quote. My point was that people who believe in penal substitution not only believe that God's wrath was removed but also that our sins are cleansed and expiated.
The eminently humble Christian is clothed with lowliness, mildness, meekness, gentleness of spirit and behavior. ~~ Jonathan Edwards
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:14 pm

St. Michael wrote:Maintenace,

I don't agree with all of it just some of it. If you want to see my summary of what being crucified with Christ is see my post above the Piper quote. My point was that people who believe in penal substitution not only believe that God's wrath was removed but also that our sins are cleansed and expiated.


Cool, but you opened a door for dialog. When you post 50 reasons for anything, you get what you ask for.

Thanks, :D
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby St. Michael » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:15 pm

:D
The eminently humble Christian is clothed with lowliness, mildness, meekness, gentleness of spirit and behavior. ~~ Jonathan Edwards
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:27 pm

Thnx :D
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby davo » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:02 pm

The both/and position as I see it (as opposed to Don’s either/or) understands that Jesus saved his people from their sins (Mt 1:21) by the offering of Himself as ‘the Lamb of God’ i.e., *on their behalf* — as per Jn 1:29; 11:50-51; 1Jn 2:2; 4:10 et al.

BUT “his people” constituted Israel, not us. However, in consequence of Israel’s redemption did the reconciliation then flowed to all men — *thus did all benefit* — as was the divinely appointed intent (Rom 11:12, 15).
Heb 7:27; 9:14 …for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself… …who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God…

I’m not sure if Don’s caricature of the penal substitution theory is totally correct, but others who hold to it might be better placed to say.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:09 pm

Caricature?

Caricature—exaggeration by means of often ludicrous distortion of parts or characteristics

Did I do that?
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby davo » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:29 pm

Sorry Don… “characterisation” is the better word.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:14 pm

Actually, I thought that may have been the word you meant.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby maintenanceman » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:19 pm

Come on everyone, let's have a dialog about the 50 points the famous preacher Mr Piper has put forth per ST Michael. :D Please.... this will be fun :lol:

If you want to talk about penal substitution, why are you all so freaking against the son of God doing what the father wanted done. He came and did what had to be done. God loved his creation and did what he knew had to be done. :lol:

There is love hovering here, there is love working, there is love from the Father. ;)
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:27 pm

If you want to talk about penal substitution, why are you all so freaking against the son of God doing what the father wanted done. He came and did what had to be done.


This question (if it is a question) seems to presume that God wanted people to suffer for their sin, and that He wanted His Son to die as a substitute for people, and so to suffer in their stead—that by taking out His wrath upon His Son, He was satisfied, so that He didn't have take it out upon sinners.
I'm not sure that what I have described is what you mean, but notwithstanding, it is the false gospel that is being continuously proclaimed throughout the world.

What God actually wanted done through His Son's death was to provide a means of enabling grace so that people could overcome wrongdoing and live righteously.

Titus 2:14 ... who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.


Through His death, Jesus made available enabling grace. This grace is appropriated through faith:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:14-16

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:4-10

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are made righteous by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a means of mercy by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be righteous and the one who makes rightesous he who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. Romans 3:20-27

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Hebrews 12:1-4
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby davo » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:51 pm

Paidion wrote:
If you want to talk about penal substitution, why are you all so freaking against the son of God doing what the father wanted done. He came and did what had to be done.


This question (if it is a question) seems to presume that God wanted people to suffer for their sin,…

I don’t think… “that God wanted people to suffer for their sin” but that people were suffering on account and in consequence of their sin and in particular the SEPARATION wrought by the sin condition they were caught in (Isa 59:2). It was from this that Jesus worked deliverance ON BEHALF OF all.

Paidion wrote:What God actually wanted done through His Son's death was to provide a means of enabling grace so that people could overcome wrongdoing and live righteously.

Titus 2:14 ... who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.


Through His death, Jesus made available enabling grace. This grace is appropriated through faith:

Indeed… but this is one of the two wings that make the bird fly. Let me quote again from above…
davo wrote:The both/and position as I see it (as opposed to Don’s either/or) understands that Jesus saved his people from their sins (Mt 1:21) by the offering of Himself as ‘the Lamb of God’ i.e., *on their behalf* — as per Jn 1:29; 11:50-51; 1Jn 2:2; 4:10 et al.

BUT “his people” constituted Israel, not us. However, in consequence of Israel’s redemption did the reconciliation then flowed to all men — *thus did all benefit* — as was the divinely appointed intent (Rom 11:12, 15).
Heb 7:27; 9:14 …for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself… …who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God…

What you have raised Don is *completely legitimate* BUT where its application is said to be made somewhat goes awry, IMO. Let me explain by quoting a key portion of the text you gave… “to purify for himself a people of his own” — ALL those texts you quoted demonstrating your point regarding “Through His death, Jesus made available enabling grace. This grace is appropriated through faith” are all pertinent SPECIFICALLY TO the people called into godly service ON BEHALF OF others — just like Jesus. We find this demonstrated in not dissimilar language used by John, right here…
Rev 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us a kingdom and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth.”

Those called were redeemed and purified by Christ to God out of every tribe, tongue, people and nation for the purpose of being His new kingdom of priests… aka Paul’s and John’s “new creation”. It was a high calling with high standards and faith needed to grab, grasp and cling to such, being… “a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:21 pm

lIndeed… but this is one of the two wings that make the bird fly.


So Davo, if I understand you correctly, your belief is that Christ, through His sacrificial death, delivers us from the ongoing practice of sin on the one hand, and the natural consequences of sin on the other. If that is your belief, I concur.

However, that "two winged" belief does not imply penal substitution.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:32 pm

We can spin the death of Christ any way we want, but at the end of the day, it was prophesied, and Christ himself knew what his fate was. I will be honest and say that I will probably never ever know the depth and meaning of Christ's death. But we do know that the ultimate sacrifice is for one person to give his or her life for another.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby Paidion » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:38 am

But we do know that the ultimate sacrifice is for one person to give his or her life for another.


Right. I don't think any Christian disagrees with the fact that Christ gave His life for us.

The disagreement lies in what is means by "His life" and what is meant by that little preposition "for." In all cases where it is written that he died "for" us, the Greek expression is "on our behalf" or "for our benefit."

But in the one case in which the preposition is "anti" (in place of)—giving His life in the place of many—giving His life refers to His giving up of His life while He lived here on earth as a human being, by spending that to serve many people.

Nowhere is penal substitution taught in the New Testament.
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Re: Did Jesus die in our place?

Postby LLC » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:29 pm

Paidion wrote:
But we do know that the ultimate sacrifice is for one person to give his or her life for another.


Right. I don't think any Christian disagrees with the fact that Christ gave His life for us.

The disagreement lies in what is means by "His life" and what is meant by that little preposition "for." In all cases where it is written that he died "for" us, the Greek expression is "on our behalf" or "for our benefit."

But in the one case in which the preposition is "anti" (in place of)—giving His life in the place of many—giving His life refers to His giving up of His life while He lived here on earth as a human being, by spending that to serve many people.

Nowhere is penal substitution taught in the New Testament.



Paidion, I agree. There are many who teach that Jesus died in our place so that we don't have to be righteous. To me, this is false teaching. I see it more like in the case of the Civil War. There were many that died and gave their lives to free others from slavery. We enjoy that freedom now because of their sacrifices. However,evil and sin still exist and will continue to exist as long as mankind is on the earth. So, if we do not pony up and continue in the ways of righteousness, giving our lives to the service of God, "the house leaks and decays " as it says in Ecclesiastes 10:18.
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