Updating the Date of the Shroud

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Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby Lazarus Short » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:02 pm

New techniques have yielded a date for the Shroud of Turin to the time of Christ.

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby JasonPratt » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:52 pm

Well, not exactly new -- the tests date from the late 90s to the early 00s. Still, I keep track of Shroud tests at least casually up to date, and I hadn't heard of fiber tensile strength tests before! 8-)

There is a metric ton of scientific data pointing to a suitably ancient origin and scientifically unknown process, unduplicatable by ancient methods, for the generation of the Shroud; and really only test against an early date, the Carbon Dating tests. There is conflicting information about those tests: for example, the people who did them (I've read their reports) are VERY VERY CLEAR that they did NOT test the medieval patchwork: they were careful about not taking material from it or its seam, and they could have easily told the difference when setting up the test that they had the wrong material. On the other hand, the two men chiefly responsible for inventing the two kinds of standard Carbon dating methods available, both have agreed independently that the tests had been botched somehow and should be redone.

It's grimly amusing to watch modern reconstruction artists trying to claim they've proved how the Shroud was made by managing to mimic a few key details -- while being totally unable to mimic all the key details. (And their methods are mutually exclusive so couldn't be combined to create the end results.)
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:11 pm

JasonPratt wrote:It's grimly amusing to watch modern reconstruction artists trying to claim they've proved how the Shroud was made by managing to mimic a few key details -- while being totally unable to mimic all the key details. (And their methods are mutually exclusive so couldn't be combined to create the end results.)


Indeed. Assuming the Shroud of Turin is a 14th-century creation, I do not see why people cannot easily re-create it using 14th-century techniques. All the supposed recreations I've seen are pretty sad.

I remember back in the 1990s going to the Shroud center of John Jackson (member of STURP) just an hour's drive north of me in Colorado Springs. (Click: http://www.shroudofturin.com/index.html ) He said that if the Shroud were fake, the STURP team would have examined the Shroud for about 20 minutes before finding that it was obviously and inescapably a 14th-century creation. Instead, the more they looked the more amazed they became.

I'm not committed to the Shroud being authentic, but I lean towards authenticity.
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby JasonPratt » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:11 am

Geoffrey wrote:I'm not committed to the Shroud being authentic, but I lean towards authenticity.


Ditto. :mrgreen:
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby qaz » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:27 pm

This is fascinating. I wonder what @Holy-Fool-P-Zombie thinks of this.
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:52 am

qaz wrote:This is fascinating. I wonder what @Holy-Fool-P-Zombie thinks of this.


I learn towards it being genuine. But I would have to look at two factors first:

    What is the consensus of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches?
    What is the current thinking, of the scientific community? With all their tests, run so far?

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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby qaz » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:22 am

Randy, how do you imagine it could be authentic in light of the carbon dating?
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby Paidion » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:17 pm

qaz wrote:Randy, how do you imagine it could be authentic in light of the carbon dating?


Personally, I don't place that much faith in carbon dating. It is accurate only if particular questionable assumptions coincide with fact. Please consider the following:

From "the Scientific American":
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carbon-dating-gets-reset/

From "LABMATE":
https://www.labmate-online.com/news/news-and-views/5/breaking_news/how_accurate_is_carbon_dating/30144

From "Amazing Discoveries":
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/C-deception-carbon_dating_radiometric_decay_rates
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby qaz » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:48 pm

Thanks paidion. Do you think the shroud is authentic? If so, what are your reasons?
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:53 am

qaz wrote:Randy, how do you imagine it could be authentic in light of the carbon dating?


I didn't say it was authentic. I said it might be. It depends on whether or not, future scientific discoveries, invalidate or refine, Carbon-14 methodologies.

I do remember, LLC saying on this forum, something to this effect: that Carbon-14 dating, is full of holes.

And if you Google "is carbon 14 dating accurate", you find scientists, etc., that side with LLC.

But I don't know. I never dated someone named Carbon-14. :lol:
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby Paidion » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:51 pm

Thanks paidion. Do you think the shroud is authentic? If so, what are your reasons?


I have no basis on which to judge with certainty whether or not it is authentic. For that reason, I have no thoughts on the subject of its authenticity.
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby qaz » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:20 pm

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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby qaz » Sat May 06, 2017 6:08 pm

I've been reading a book called "Test the Shroud" by Mark Antonacci. He believes the shroud is authentic. His theory is that the shroud's image was caused by neutron radiation. Here are some poignant quotes from the book:

Scientists who participated in the Shroud's radiocarbon dating in 1988 readily acknowledge the effect that neutron radiation would have had on the validity of the results. When asked by a journalist soon after their results were announced whether such a process could have caused an incorrect dating of the Shroud, Michael Tite, who coordinated the carbon dating of the Shroud for the British Museum, commented: "It is certainly possible if one gave the Shroud a large doe of neutrons to produce C-14 from the nitrogen in the cloth." (emphasis added) Robert Hedges, one of the scientists who participated in the carbon dating of the Shroud at the Oxford laboratory, also acknowledged to the journalist that a "sufficient level of neutrons from radiation on the Shroud would invalidate the radiocarbon date which we obtained." (emphasis added)
(p 123)

Despite these considerations and admissions, Hedges dismissed the possibility that such an event could have influenced the Shroud's medieval radiocarbon date. And the first reason he asserted was that "No plausible physical mechanism has been proposed to explain how the resurrection was accompanied by a significant neutron flux." That wasn't even the point! The point was that if the Shroud was irradiated with a neutron flux, it would have invalidated the 1988 radiocarbon dating, and it was the laboratories' job to accurately date this cloth.
(p 326)

Now, I don't know if Hedges's other reasons for dismissing the possibility are good; I haven't gone to the primary source for the statement (I probably should). But his reason here seems to be a form begging the question; he's basically saying since naturalism couldn't explain neutron radiation occurring and producing the shroud's image, then it must not have happened. In other words, he is presupposing naturalism!

So for me the biggest hurdle for believing in the Shroud's authenticity is that the carbon dating results just so happened to ascribe Medieval origin. It would be one thing if the C-14 results said the Shroud was from a time period that hadn't already claimed to have been the time of the Shroud's origination, but the fact that the results matched the time period that someone had claimed prior to the carbon dating, leaves me skeptical.
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Re: Updating the Date of the Shroud

Postby qaz » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am

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