The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Called a heretic for the first time... here was my response.

Sorry Matt it wasn’t a comment on the length of your post :slight_smile: - it was a reference to AllanS’s quote from Paul Simon’s ‘The Boxer’ - I should have referenced the post above mine.

‘A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.’

Li lah li, (crash of heavily reverbed snare drum), li lah li li li lah li.

You shouldn’t leave. Blessed are you when you are persecuted FOR MY NAME. Rejoice!!

What better thing than to be called a heretic because you believe Christ died for all? And if Calvinists changed TULIP to TURNIP
(Redemptive atonement Never fails?) they’d all be EUs. As it is, they believe effectily that Satan won heaven’s civil war. This is a battle for the soul of our faith, for the identity of Christ. This is where the Spirit is fighting now. You must also fight.

But don’t be itchy-bay. “you’re so mean”. Attack not the person, but the cause of the meanness (“it’s easy to tell someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God, that Scripture is the Holy-Spirit breathed word, that Only Christ’s blood can cover our sin, that they will burn in everlasting hell, if you see GOD as so prejudiced that he would create a whole race of people (The Unelect) who were firewood from their birth. Makes India’s caste system seem compassionate.”)

And for Jesus’ sake, be brief. Consider whether you’re trying to reach people, or just unload your chest? Only in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus say so much without interrupting himself to allow the beloved to speak or ask a question. Pontificating is not conversation - even if everything you are saying is heartfelt and true.

To clarify and avoid any further confusion . . .

The TULIP DEBATE group was (according to their “about” tab) established to discuss the fallacy inherent in TULIP.

I guess that means they’re Arminians, but I also saw someone there post on how both Calvinists and Arminians are wrong. Since this person also is among the quickest to condemn Universalists as heretics on their way to a fiery hell :laughing:, I suppose he must the the ultimate authority – at least in his own eyes.

But . . . it will likely make any further discussion with these folks a little bit easier if we understand that they’re not Calvinists, whatever else (and I haven’t figured this out) they may be.

Blessings, Cindy

Jeff:

Oh, I see :slight_smile: Didn’t realize Allan was quoting from a song… I actually like that song, just haven’t listened to it enough to recognize the lyrics at first glance. :blush:

Simon and Garfunkel is good stuff, if you ask me, by the way. :slight_smile:

The Sound Of Silence, I Am A Rock, Scarborough Fair, Kathy’s Song, Mrs Robinson, The Boxer (now I recall the Li La Li, CRASH :laughing: ), Bridge Over Troubled Water, The Only Living Boy In New York, etc… good stuff. :slight_smile:
Yes, us younger folk (I’m 29) can appreciate the older stuff :laughing:

Nottirbd:

Thanks for your comment, bro.

As I shared with Jael -

I agree that we should stand up and fight when called to, but then there is a time and a place for fighting, and then there is a time and a place for just walking away (with perhaps some parting words, like I did), and leaving the fight in God’s hands.

And honestly, I’ve got so many things on my plate right now and so many things to think about in my life right now that really I’m not up for getting dog-piled by theological police. :neutral_face:

You may wonder if I’m just chicken, and chicken I may be, but like I said in the post, I believe that God loves us and won’t give up on us even when we are chickens, phonies, and/or slobs…

Perhaps I did go a bit too much on the offensive with Wayne personally, and you may be right about that, but then again you haven’t seen his comment to which I was responding (should have posted it here along with my post, but I think I was too brain-dead from writing so much that it didn’t occur to me to do so, and now I’ve left the group, so… my bad :blush:).

And from getting a general vibe offa the guy, and how his comment made me feel, I’m thinking that I was cutting him quite a bit of slack and was holding back and trying to be gracious even when I could have just called him a few choice names, given him a piece of my mind, then left and had done with it. :neutral_face:
But I figured that speaking from my heart and trying to be real with him, while also trying to be gracious, was a better way of responding, so that’s what I tried to do.

And as for the length? Guilty as charged. :neutral_face:
I have very little skill as condensing my thoughts into a few words most of the time, unless I try to write a poem, which I have an easier time condensing my thoughts into, but then few would likely understand it, and not many appreciate poetry these days anyway, it seems like, and I’d guess that Wayne would likely not be among those who did. :neutral_face:

And you’re right, I should ask whether or not I’m trying to reach people or just unload… :neutral_face:
Before I sent the message, I prayed that it would touch Wayne or whoever else may take the time to read it, and asked some friends to pray for the same thing, but it may be true that my motive to begin with may have been to just unload, or at best, to reach people and to unload… of that I may likely be guilty, and you’re right to question me on that.

And I admit firsthand that I’m a crappy listener much of the time, especially if I find what the other person is saying to be mean-spirited, hardhearted, or downright oppressive in nature, in which case I either get my back up or tune it out, or hopelessly tedious and boring, in which case I can’t really focus and get easily distracted by more interesting things… and this is an area I need a lot of help in, and I would appreciate your prayers, that God would help me to be a better listener.

And you’re right that pontificating is not conversation… getting up on a soapbox isn’t going to help things much usually… but all I can say is that Jesus was/is far better at communicating then I am, and who I am right now is who I am right now, and I know I’m weak in a lot of areas and often a scaredy-cat and probably more sensitive than I should be, that I talk too much and don’t listen very well and I have a long way to go in being conformed to the image of Christ… but then I hold onto the belief that God loves me and understands me anyway, and can help me, gradually, to change and become more and more like Christ…

If writing and posting what I said or if leaving the group was a mistake, then I hope God would forgive me for it, or that He’d turn my bad into some good…

Whatever the case though, I appreciate your honesty and straightforwardness and for calling me out on some things that maybe I need to be called out on.

Blessings to you bro, and peace

Cindy:

Yeah, I noticed that after I left the group :blush:

But then again, my guess would be that Wayne is a Calvinist himself (though I could be wrong about that), and anyways, most of what I said would still apply I think, even if he was an Arminian (or something else :question:).

But then this should be a reminder that I should always make sure to check and read carefully the group description and rules and all of that before I start posting on any page like that in the future. :blush:

Thanks for the reminder, sis :slight_smile:

Hey Matt

I popped over to FB to see what the response might be to my having posted this article: hellboundthemovie.com/for-th … heres-why/ from the “Hellbound?” movie site. I wanted them to understand where we’re really coming from.

So I couldn’t find them on my list, and I thought, “Well, they must’ve kicked me out.” I searched the group and nothing came up at all. Did we cause them to disband, d’you think? Honestly, a nest of hatefulness like that seemed to be will hardly be a loss. Or maybe they’ve gone secret. :wink: I’m afraid the club will be pretty dead once they finish trashing us, if that’s the case.

I just thought you’d be interested, Bro.

Love, Cindy

Yeah, I can’t find it either. :neutral_face: I’m thinking they probably kicked all of us out, at least those of us who have joined in and have been open about what we believe, and then made it a closed group. :neutral_face: Ah, such a rich display of Christian hospitality… :frowning:

Good post by Kevin on his site though. :slight_smile: Thanks for sharing, sis :slight_smile:

Blessings to you :slight_smile:

Hey, great new picture there, Jeff!

The group is still there, and I’m still a member. But I don’t think I’ve said anything there. I’m not very much into debating people who aren’t interested on some level. Maybe I’ll say something sometime – if I think of something brilliant. :laughing:

Sonia

I’m sure you will, Sonia :slight_smile:

Matt - this is really good stuff; and very well expressed. Great to see you standing up to the TULIPS from Amsterdam rather than tipitoeing through or even round them. I see you are a chip off the old block for not writing in soundbites! Och well - we can’t all be crisp and punchy like an iceberg lettuce with anger management issues!

All very good wishes to you

Dick

Thanks Rick :slight_smile: I found out later that they might have actually been mostly militant Arminians, but a lot of what I said would still apply, I’m thinking. :wink:

Yeah, I know, I’m picking up a bit of your style I think… and a bit of that winsomeness of yours, I think :wink:

:laughing: Indeed :wink:

Good wishes to you as well, my friend :slight_smile:

Matt

posted 2 too many times dont know how I did but I did…deleted

Hi edward,
your post is the first I have read here on EU after reading that I decided to register (8 May 2012).

I thought that it was a well thought out post to which I can only agree with. If you’re a herotic then so am I!

A proper biblical response to your article, I feel is:

Beautiful are the feet of those who preach Good News…

Get ye up to high place! (to deliver this message).

Here’s the full verse from Isaiah 52 verse 7:

How beautiful on the mountains

are the feet of those who bring good news,

who proclaim peace,

who bring good tidings,

who proclaim salvation,

who say to Zion,

“Your God reigns!”

Thank you for your great introduction to EU

Yay Matt - you’ve got fans and I’m one two! - it’s about time I tool my hat off to you (it was gettnig a bit one sided) Look you’ve just preahed the Gospel of Pe ace and brought glad tidings to someone. That’s wonderful.

On a lighthearted note I remember that when Karl Barth was called a heretic by some sectarians - not on;y for his thelogy but beaucse of his love of the ‘satanic’ Motzart, he replied ‘these people are cannibals and butchers - we do not need to take them seriously’. Also I remember a story about name calling - 'Name calling is to use exciting terms to generate exciting emotions. Someone once replied to the taunt of ‘heretic’ - "If we are dealing in exciting terms and you enjoy these I’ll call you a devil worshipper if you like - that should give you enough excitement to last quite some time!

If you ever do come to the UK you know I’ll always meet you - I don’t have lots of time because being a carer means I’m often confined to barracks; but I’m sure I could show you some of the sites of London Town. And do bear in mind that if I ever get round to doing a UR and Chirstian Humanism thread (including Shakespeare) I’d love you to shadow/partner/ encourage/ keep me in line/ make conrtibutions in dialogue.

You are doing so great -

Dick

You’re welcome bro :slight_smile: Thank you for the encouragement and blessings to you :slight_smile:

Sobernost: Thanks Rick :slight_smile: And I’m a fan of yours :wink:

And it sounds like Karl Barth was a pretty forward fellow at times :laughing:

:laughing:

I’d love to come to England some day, but alas, I’m all the way over here in Oregon, about as far from England as one can get, that and I’m far from being wealthy enough to afford such a trip. :neutral_face: Janitors are not known for being wealthy. :neutral_face:

But I will try to chime in on your posts as much as I can. :slight_smile: I’ve been kind of busy lately and haven’t had time to follow along with your latest posts, but I’ll try to catch up soon, after Mother’s Day (must spend some quality time with my Mum), and then maybe try to leave some encouraging comments. :wink:

Thanks bro, and blessings to you as well :slight_smile:

Matt

Jesus said to Love our enemies and those that persecute us, yet many want to believe God will punish his enemies in a fable hell of eternal punishment.

Awesome post! And of course, I relate completely. Can’t reply to all you wrote fully here as I’m only about half way through but the thing that really struck me about what you said and also the thing that I think makes what Rob Bell wrote so vital is the trust issue. Yes, precisely. We must be able to trust God if we are to be transformed. We must – otherwise, we’ll opt out of the process (and it IS a process – taking sometimes, aions!lol) so without that trust in the one re-making us in ‘his’ image, we’re literally lost, and how can we trust someone who is essentially, if – as is suggested by ECT – covertly, cruel? Even ‘justifiably’ cruel? We can’t. Even if we think we do – even if we parrot what we believe is ‘his’ so-called doctrines and rules, we’re too scared to really trust. Trust and fear are mutually exclusive. So yes, exactly bro –

They lost a committed Christian, sigh. Welcome to heresy bro!! or is it blasphemy? Why did they kill Jesus again? :smiley:

Thanks Sasha :slight_smile: I know it’s kind of long, lol… I’m still curious as to how everyone responded… I guess I’ll find out how someday in the distant future. :wink: But my friend Justin, who was still on there after I left, said there was a huge firestorm after that post of mine, so who knows. :wink:

Aye, I’m in good company then :sunglasses: :laughing:

Blessings to you :slight_smile:

Matt

Thanks for your thoughtful and heartfelt response. Calling someone a heretic is sometimes an easy out. When people get angry and upset because their cherished and long held viewpoint is charitably questioned it usually doesn’t take too long before the ‘heretic’ word is rolled out. We are on a long journey towards greater love and understanding and at some basic level we are all heretics since not one of us has the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And even if we did, we aren’t able to live it out lovingly. Try not to wear the heresy 'lable as a badge of honour or dishonour. Try to see it as a normal response when a cherished belief system is threatened. And thanks again for a carefully crafted response.

I am late to the party, but I will say this; incredible. I agree with 100% of it and have for the last 7 years.