books about suppsoed visions of hell

[wigglytug]

books like this one just seem to make me depressed! I thought Jesus had died for the world! http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Empty-Hell ... 1599793997 please could some one prove to me that this cant be how the world ends!

[corpselight]

bit difficult to disprove without reading the book, but it sounds like this author claims he's had visions, and you can't rationally debate that point for point.

however...

if you search this forum, you should find a lot of stuff that shows that God does not promise eternal torment to anyone...personally i think that is demonstrably true...but again there are those who disagree.

personally if you are fearful, read 1 Corinthians 13, and replace the word Love with God in that passage. John tells us that God is Love, and if God is Love, than what Paul writes about love he is really writing about God. God keeps no record of wrongs, God endures all things, God forgives all things, God NEVER FAILS. remember that we see through a glass darkly now, but soon we will see face to face. God is SO good. the Spirit who has raised me and protected me and provided for me has nothing but love for the entire world.

[wigglytug]

the thing is i am fearful for others much more than my self........i mean i found an entire website dedicate to supposed visions of hell this enough to give you night terrors if your mind was weak one even said that people go to hell for playing soccer! isnt that that type of legalism Jesus would have hated

[WE ARE ALL BROTHERS]

personally if you are fearful, read 1 Corinthians 13, and replace the word Love with God in that passage. John tells us that God is Love, and if God is Love, than what Paul writes about love he is really writing about God. God keeps no record of wrongs, God endures all things, God forgives all things, God NEVER FAILS. remember that we see through a glass darkly now, but soon we will see face to face. God is SO good. the Spirit who has raised me and protected me and provided for me has nothing but love for the entire world.

Corpselight, as you know, I believe we can have a legitimate hope that everyone will find salvation in Yeshua. But I'm not sure it's right to suggest that love NEVER FAILS. "Never fails" suggests (within your theology) that love is always successful in affecting reciprocation in other persons, and in my experience it simply doesn't (and nor does the context in 1 Corinthians 13:8 suggest it should). I could love [insert-latest-celebrity-crush] for my whole life and it does not mean they will reciprocate that preference towards me. Likewise, God can love Satan to all eternity, but it doesn't mean that Satan will necessarily love God back. It's true that love might never fail to affect reciprocation (we could look at other prophecies regarding Satan and deduce that idea). But it certainly doesn't say it here (or explicitly anywhere else I'm aware of). "Never ceases" however, rightly implies that the love of God is always eternal towards other persons (in Calvinism, some persons). This doesn't necessitate Universal Reconciliation.

[amy]

Isn't there a huge difference between our crush not reciprocating our love vs. a person not reciprocating God's? When a crush doesn't return our love, they aren't sick - they just prefer someone else. When we don't return God's love, we're out of our minds. For who else is there to love more, ourselves? That's delusional! We're not even loving ourselves, ironically, unless we are loving God. We were made to love God. Who is not sick at some point, thinks something other than God looks enticing, that God is not able to bring to his/her senses? If God created us, knowing we'd be sick, and couldn't do anything to help us, that'd be really messed up! It seems like God's love never fails in that he creates us knowing full well he's got a plan to save us too.

[corpselight]

good point, Andrew, it doesn't HAVE to prove that...i think that it very strongly hints, it though. especially when taken with ...Ezekiel? or is it Isaiah? that says that God's will is unstoppable? yes, it's cobbling things together, but we all do that, and we all have to do that.
i guess i have issues with the idea of God dooming Himself to unreciprocated "emo" love for all eternity...when He is the most persuasive negotiator, the most ardent lover, the most loving Father this universe has ever known or will ever know.
so for me, this passage works, but i can appreciate why you're reluctant to agree. it's not cut and dried or simple.

wigglytug...i agree, that sort of legalism is seriously satanic. soccer?! i'm no fan of sports (well, they're fun enough to play), and i can appreciate that it becomes an idol for some people...but that doesn't make it innately sinful or worth damning over.
you must remember there are a lot of ...vulnerable people (to put it diplomatically) in the world, and they get attracted to strange spirituality sometimes...having guides and weird encounters with angels (ok, as i have no way of disproving, it's POSSIBLE these are genuine lol, but i seriously doubt it). some people have real problems that manifest in these ways. some are willfully deceptive, too. if it doesn't match up with Scripture, it is suspect. the truth is, Scripture doesn't tell us alot about Heaven or Hell. the latter is because it's really the grave that's being talked about, not some feiry torture chamber (we really need to get that rubbish cleared out of our theology), the former because it'd blow our minds, though we are given tantalaising glimpses of peace, gladness, abundance, reconciliation, equality etc etc.
anyone who tries to add more detail is at best guessing, and at worst lying (if they claim their ideas are straight from God). i really don't think God is going to add anything to what's written already.

[WE ARE ALL BROTHERS]

i think that it very strongly hints, it though. especially when taken with ...Ezekiel? or is it Isaiah? that says that God's will is unstoppable?

Do you mean Isaiah 5:4?

(Just teasing!)

[corpselight]

i think that it very strongly hints, it though. especially when taken with ...Ezekiel? or is it Isaiah? that says that God's will is unstoppable?

Do you mean Isaiah 5:4?

(Just teasing!)

lol!

[Cindy Skillman]

I just bought the book you referenced, WT, for Kindle, so I'll let you know what I think once I've read it. But I started reading one of these (23 minutes in hell) at the book store a while back and was completely unimpressed. The author's 'visit to hell' was completely contradictory of scripture (and that was back when I believed the popular evangelical picture of hell', too!) I decided he had written it for money -- but maybe I'm mistaken about that. It wouldn't be the first time.

Anyway, I'll get back to you when I've read that -- it's apparently 98 pages (or I wouldn't have bought it), so it shouldn't be a long wait for you. I'm always interested to see whether one of these authors can point out some things I haven't thought of and shake my beliefs. I want to be in line with God's word, even if it means I have to change treasured beliefs -- which is, in fact, how I ended up here.

Blessings, Cindy

[wigglytug]

ive notice some thing all these extremely explict hell visions were demons give Dante s inferno like tortures they all seem to have come from hard-core pentecostals whom believe in absolute free will... I guess they dont make very good combinations

[Cindy Skillman]

WT,
I'm still on the heaven part -- I've been gone to town for several hours. To be honest with you, it looks pretty bogus so far. I don't want to be mean to this brother, but I think maybe (if he isn't outright making this stuff up), he's exaggerating his own imaginings -- if that makes sense to you.

Talk to you soon,
Cindy

[Cindy Skillman]

Okay, I've finished it -- though I skimmed quite a lot.

Honestly, I hate to be mean to the guy. He seems so sincere (except that the visions ring very, very false to me). Saying bad things about his book seems like kicking a puppy. The bits where he's NOT having visions aren't too bad as a whole imo, but there's no way these visions are true. For one thing they're so self-aggrandizing.

My husband would tell me I'm too gullible and trying to be too nice, and that this guy is a died-in-the-wool charlatan. And he might be right about that. Sometimes people do lie most audaciously. But I prefer on the whole to believe that the author believes what he says and that he's just deceiving himself.

His visions of hell aren't very graphic at all, and in the book, hell doesn't seem all that bad to me. There's no reason to suppose that it goes on forever, or that it involves torment worse that people often suffer here (which can certainly be bad enough). The thing is, neither his visions of heaven nor his visions of hell seem believable.

It's the tradition of many people groups (and likely his) to exaggerate things for effect. Now that I think of it, it's also my mother's tradition. I've had what I suppose you'd call visions, but possibly as a reaction to my mom's stories (which I just took at face value when I was a kid), my own tradition is NOT to exaggerate. I tend rather more toward understatement.

Still, I could see how you could take those, add a vivid imagination and a healthy dose of good intentions and come up with a much more impressive story than I would tell of my own experiences. And I know and realize that my own experiences may well be colored by my own "real life" experiences and I may be interpreting them (and embellishing them) wrongly. So I try to stick to the bare facts and then add my understanding of them as nothing but my understanding of them.

Bottom line -- I think he's exaggerating, fantasizing, and misinterpreting. He doesn't seem to have a financial motive, or at least it doesn't show in his book if he does. That's a good thing, because if he did, I'm afraid he'd be disappointed in the revenue he's likely to get from this writing.

I could go on to exegete how many of the things he "saw" are out of sequence for a dispensationalist such as himself. But that would be rather overplaying it. The book isn't serious enough to merit that much effort.

His worry that heaven is empty but hell is full was one of the things that eventually led to my pondering to the point of realizing that something was very wrong with my soteriology. Yes, given ECT or Anni, and given the narrow gate and difficult way that lead to salvation, and given the general worldliness of most of the western church world, this brother is absolutely right about the fate of most "Christians." BUT I knew there was something wrong, as Abraham was promised numberless children, and Jesus' death had to be more successful than that.

Universalism is the only interpretation of scripture that draws everything together and makes sense of all the so-called tensions and contradictions in the Bible. When once one realizes that yes, Jesus did mean what He said: "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL people to Me," all the conundrums just evaporate. It is the missing piece that makes the entire machine functional. Without this, so many, many things simply don't work.

But don't worry, WT. Everything will all be all right. Heaven will (imo) be rather scarcely populated for a while. Those of us who (we pray) are given the honor of running our races well and being among the elect, will also turn and strengthen our brethren, as He has committed to us the ministry of reconciliation. New little brothers and sisters will soon be arriving. Abba is perfect in love, and He will make it all good.

Love in Jesus, Cindy

[Sherman]

Thanks for sharing Cindy. I haven't read the book at the top, but I did briefly looked through 23 minutes in Hell. And my aunt actually bought my son a copy because she was concerned about me teaching him UR. I was pleased when my son went through the book himself. He actually studied each scripture quoted by Weiss and found that the man quoted many scriptures completely misinterpreting them, and even referencing some as support for his statements when the passages had nothing to do with what he said.

Anyhow, concerning such visions and dreams of Hell, I believe that people who really recieved such are seeing in graphic form the reality of what Paul calls "this present evil age" Gal. 1:4, which Jesus saves us from. People are in bondage to sin and evil, within and without, even being tormented by demons, under the dominion of evil, having no hope of deliverance. Such visions and dreams need to be interpreted as one would a painting or movie, not like one would interpret a text book.

Also, have you ever noticed how many of such visions actually result in the salvation of people. Some people even have conversion experiences in their Near Death Experiences. It's really very facinating. It is sad that people then take these and misuse them to affirm ECT, when they only really affirm that people are presently under the dominion of evil and will continue so until they are saved.

[wigglytug]

what does exactly ECT stand for

[corpselight]

eternal conscious torment

[Cindy Skillman]

Yes, I believe you're right about the interpretation, Sherman. Any time I try to come up with an interpretation of some picture God has shown me, I get it wrong -- without exception. When I ask Him, it's always something I'd never thought of -- but I'm not very good with symbolism, for some reason. I'd like to be, but I have to ask Him, and maybe that's the way He wants it.

I started reading that 23 minutes in hell book at the bookstore and I was so irritated and unimpressed I just put it back on the shelf, shaking my head. It was so obviously off -- and at the time, I believed in ect.

[wigglytug]

i dont know why but i always want to findout what is up in these guys head when they claim they had went to hell.....dreams,visions,just wanting attention...or something else entirely or maybe they think its okay to scare people so that they wil convert to their religon ...... and ive mentioned that ive heard that Pentecostalism can sometimes have a bit of mental trouble for its follwers

[wigglytug]

Okay, I've finished it -- though I skimmed quite a lot.

Honestly, I hate to be mean to the guy. He seems so sincere (except that the visions ring very, very false to me). Saying bad things about his book seems like kicking a puppy. The bits where he's NOT having visions aren't too bad as a whole imo, but there's no way these visions are true. For one thing they're so self-aggrandizing.

My husband would tell me I'm too gullible and trying to be too nice, and that this guy is a died-in-the-wool charlatan. And he might be right about that. Sometimes people do lie most audaciously. But I prefer on the whole to believe that the author believes what he says and that he's just deceiving himself.

His visions of hell aren't very graphic at all, and in the book, hell doesn't seem all that bad to me. There's no reason to suppose that it goes on forever, or that it involves torment worse that people often suffer here (which can certainly be bad enough). The thing is, neither his visions of heaven nor his visions of hell seem believable.

It's the tradition of many people groups (and likely his) to exaggerate things for effect. Now that I think of it, it's also my mother's tradition. I've had what I suppose you'd call visions, but possibly as a reaction to my mom's stories (which I just took at face value when I was a kid), my own tradition is NOT to exaggerate. I tend rather more toward understatement.

Still, I could see how you could take those, add a vivid imagination and a healthy dose of good intentions and come up with a much more impressive story than I would tell of my own experiences. And I know and realize that my own experiences may well be colored by my own "real life" experiences and I may be interpreting them (and embellishing them) wrongly. So I try to stick to the bare facts and then add my understanding of them as nothing but my understanding of them.

Bottom line -- I think he's exaggerating, fantasizing, and misinterpreting. He doesn't seem to have a financial motive, or at least it doesn't show in his book if he does. That's a good thing, because if he did, I'm afraid he'd be disappointed in the revenue he's likely to get from this writing.

I could go on to exegete how many of the things he "saw" are out of sequence for a dispensationalist such as himself. But that would be rather overplaying it. The book isn't serious enough to merit that much effort.

His worry that heaven is empty but hell is full was one of the things that eventually led to my pondering to the point of realizing that something was very wrong with my soteriology. Yes, given ECT or Anni, and given the narrow gate and difficult way that lead to salvation, and given the general worldliness of most of the western church world, this brother is absolutely right about the fate of most "Christians." BUT I knew there was something wrong, as Abraham was promised numberless children, and Jesus' death had to be more successful than that.

Universalism is the only interpretation of scripture that draws everything together and makes sense of all the so-called tensions and contradictions in the Bible. When once one realizes that yes, Jesus did mean what He said: "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL people to Me," all the conundrums just evaporate. It is the missing piece that makes the entire machine functional. Without this, so many, many things simply don't work.

But don't worry, WT. Everything will all be all right. Heaven will (imo) be rather scarcely populated for a while. Those of us who (we pray) are given the honor of running our races well and being among the elect, will also turn and strengthen our brethren, as He has committed to us the ministry of reconciliation. New little brothers and sisters will soon be arriving. Abba is perfect in love, and He will make it all good.

Love in Jesus, Cindy

wait how did u get and fisnish the book so fast

[Cindy Skillman]

I bought it on Kindle -- instant gratification. I'm afraid that gets to be more expensive for me than I realize. And it was only 90 some-odd pages (according to Amazon) and as I said, I skimmed quite a lot.

[wigglytug]

well iam kinda sorry for wasting ur monies

[Cindy Skillman]

Don't worry. It wasn't very expensive, and I wouldn't have bought it if I hadn't been curious. I have a book habit, but my husband has a vintage firearms habit. Guess which of US spends the most money!? Nothing to be sorry about, WT.

[wigglytug]

Thanks for sharing Cindy. I haven't read the book at the top, but I did briefly looked through 23 minutes in Hell. And my aunt actually bought my son a copy because she was concerned about me teaching him UR. I was pleased when my son went through the book himself. He actually studied each scripture quoted by Weiss and found that the man quoted many scriptures completely misinterpreting them, and even referencing some as support for his statements when the passages had nothing to do with what he said.

Anyhow, concerning such visions and dreams of Hell, I believe that people who really recieved such are seeing in graphic form the reality of what Paul calls "this present evil age" Gal. 1:4, which Jesus saves us from. People are in bondage to sin and evil, within and without, even being tormented by demons, under the dominion of evil, having no hope of deliverance. Such visions and dreams need to be interpreted as one would a painting or movie, not like one would interpret a text book.

Also, have you ever noticed how many of such visions actually result in the salvation of people. Some people even have conversion experiences in their Near Death Experiences. It's really very facinating. It is sad that people then take these and misuse them to affirm ECT, when they only really affirm that people are presently under the dominion of evil and will continue so until they are saved.

and dont forget that there are quite a few contradcitions in bills story
for example- on page 8 of his book he says he crawled out of a cell but on a youtube video he says god pulled him out of a cell

[wigglytug]

Okay, I've finished it -- though I skimmed quite a lot.

Honestly, I hate to be mean to the guy. He seems so sincere (except that the visions ring very, very false to me). Saying bad things about his book seems like kicking a puppy. The bits where he's NOT having visions aren't too bad as a whole imo, but there's no way these visions are true. For one thing they're so self-aggrandizing.

My husband would tell me I'm too gullible and trying to be too nice, and that this guy is a died-in-the-wool charlatan. And he might be right about that. Sometimes people do lie most audaciously. But I prefer on the whole to believe that the author believes what he says and that he's just deceiving himself.

His visions of hell aren't very graphic at all, and in the book, hell doesn't seem all that bad to me. There's no reason to suppose that it goes on forever, or that it involves torment worse that people often suffer here (which can certainly be bad enough). The thing is, neither his visions of heaven nor his visions of hell seem believable.

It's the tradition of many people groups (and likely his) to exaggerate things for effect. Now that I think of it, it's also my mother's tradition. I've had what I suppose you'd call visions, but possibly as a reaction to my mom's stories (which I just took at face value when I was a kid), my own tradition is NOT to exaggerate. I tend rather more toward understatement.

Still, I could see how you could take those, add a vivid imagination and a healthy dose of good intentions and come up with a much more impressive story than I would tell of my own experiences. And I know and realize that my own experiences may well be colored by my own "real life" experiences and I may be interpreting them (and embellishing them) wrongly. So I try to stick to the bare facts and then add my understanding of them as nothing but my understanding of them.

Bottom line -- I think he's exaggerating, fantasizing, and misinterpreting. He doesn't seem to have a financial motive, or at least it doesn't show in his book if he does. That's a good thing, because if he did, I'm afraid he'd be disappointed in the revenue he's likely to get from this writing.

I could go on to exegete how many of the things he "saw" are out of sequence for a dispensationalist such as himself. But that would be rather overplaying it. The book isn't serious enough to merit that much effort.

His worry that heaven is empty but hell is full was one of the things that eventually led to my pondering to the point of realizing that something was very wrong with my soteriology. Yes, given ECT or Anni, and given the narrow gate and difficult way that lead to salvation, and given the general worldliness of most of the western church world, this brother is absolutely right about the fate of most "Christians." BUT I knew there was something wrong, as Abraham was promised numberless children, and Jesus' death had to be more successful than that.

Universalism is the only interpretation of scripture that draws everything together and makes sense of all the so-called tensions and contradictions in the Bible. When once one realizes that yes, Jesus did mean what He said: "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL people to Me," all the conundrums just evaporate. It is the missing piece that makes the entire machine functional. Without this, so many, many things simply don't work.

But don't worry, WT. Everything will all be all right. Heaven will (imo) be rather scarcely populated for a while. Those of us who (we pray) are given the honor of running our races well and being among the elect, will also turn and strengthen our brethren, as He has committed to us the ministry of reconciliation. New little brothers and sisters will soon be arriving. Abba is perfect in love, and He will make it all good.

Love in Jesus, Cindy

hold on he did he say he saw his mom in hell in the book, cause from what ive seen in the preview thats what he said

[AllanS]

Did this fellow go to hell before or after his abduction by aliens (who all looked suspiciously like Elvis).

[corpselight]

Did this fellow go to hell before or after his abduction by aliens (who all looked suspiciously like Elvis).