Eaglesway wrote:Eschatology is not the seed or the core of the scriptures. Christ crucified is.
Paidion wrote:Davo wrote:To appease an offended person (propitiate), in this case God, by the confession of and consequent abolition of sin (penance)… this is Don’s post-mortem repentance via the cleansing fires of ‘the lake of fire’ in order that said candidate (inclusive of all non-believers AND believers) might finally exit said burnings into the relief of Heaven. Until one grasps the fire insurer on a burning one shall go… IMO a load of religious BS. You’ll have to forgive my bluntness.
Bluntness? It's baloney! I do not believe in Christ's sacrifice as a means of propitiating God in order to escape the lake of fire (if that's the doctrine you're attributing to me).
Paidion wrote:By the way, 2 Clement wasn't written by Clement. I don't use it in support of any doctrine.
Paidion wrote:I see no reason why the fact of death would prevent us from repenting thereafter.
Eaglesway wrote:My point was that God is the fire.
Pre mortem, post mortem whatever. The presence of God is the fire, whether in life or in death, the fire burns until all darkness is consumed and God is "everything in everyone", "all in all". To me, there is no point to arguing about whether it is post mortem or not.
Eaglesway wrote:But Jesus is the stumbling stone, a rock of offense. He is the breaking point, the event horizon, for everyone who ever lived or will live- and thats what Mark 9:49 is about
"Everyone will be salted with fire".
Paidion wrote:maintenanceman wrote:It seems that your take from scripture (and your obvious leaning to the early church writers)...
1)Post mortem fire is an absolute given
2)So, Repentance is mandatory for escaping how severe the postmortem fire is going to be...
3)But, this postmortem fire is definitely not a penalty, (or I assume you mean punishment of some sort)
4)And you say that repentance ( no matter how sincere) will not keep you from the correction of post mortem fire.
5) What is the fire?
I was wondering (though I know it might seem redundant) if you would give some bible references for the above five points?
Hi Maintenance Man. Thank you for your respectful inquiry. I'll do my best. However, I will deal with just 1) and 4) in this post:
I think 1) and 4) can be answered with the statement, "For everyone will be salted (or "seasoned") with fire" (Mark 9:49). Although Davo thinks that my understanding that this is post-mortem correction, is hogwash, let's examine it in context:
That little word "for" (γαρ in Greek, or "gar" in transliteration) indicates a connection to the preceding words. And what are the preceding words?
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
The Greek word translated as "hell" is "γεενvα" usually transliterated as "gehenna" in English characters. The Online Bible Lexicon defines the word as follows:Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Now I realize that many want to LIMIT the meaning to the valley of Hinnon. But I doubt that Jesus was referring to that valley in the above quote. For Jesus whole teaching in the quote seems to be symbolic. He doesn't expect people to cut of their hands and tear out their eyes, if they are the causes of sin, but rather to cast out of their lives whatever induces them to do wrong. And why would "their worm not die" in the valley of Hinnom?
Also, if Jesus is talking about one's body being cast into Hinnom after death, who cares? Is it of any personal importance what happens to your body after death.
As I see it, Jesus is warning his listeners about the severe correction they will need to undergo post-mortem unless they avoid wrongdoing in this life, eliminating those things from their lives that induce them to sin. Then, although they will still require correction (Everyone will be salted with fire), it will not be the severe correction that will be undergone in Hell (or "Gehenna" if you prefer) by those that continue in wrongdoing without repentance.
That fire is God Himself!
Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe,for our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:28,29)
Fire symbolizes God because God "consumes" all sin. That which is not eliminated in this life, must be eliminated in the next. Those who are grateful for receiving the unshakeable Kingdom, and who offer acceptable worship with reverence and awe, will enter life with far less tendency for wrongdoing, and thus there will be less to consume. The fire is God Himself, whose essence is LOVE (1 John 4:8,16). Generally His people will experience LOVE as joy. Even though they may need some correction from it, they will welcome that correction. Whereas those who have rejected God and hate Him will experience LOVE as pain. But sooner or later, they too, will be corrected.
The other two verses you quoted were words spoken by John the baptizer, and they are obviously figurative language to illustrate the importance of bearing good fruit.
Besides, if you believe that all people will be reconciled to God, then it would not make sense that God would destroy those that did not bear good fruit.
Or do you think it means only that God will destroy their physical existence in this present life?
davo wrote:Eaglesway wrote:My point was that God is the fire.
Pre mortem, post mortem whatever. The presence of God is the fire, whether in life or in death, the fire burns until all darkness is consumed and God is "everything in everyone", "all in all". To me, there is no point to arguing about whether it is post mortem or not.Eaglesway wrote:But Jesus is the stumbling stone, a rock of offense. He is the breaking point, the event horizon, for everyone who ever lived or will live- and thats what Mark 9:49 is about
"Everyone will be salted with fire".
Ok… so we will run with your scenario.
We know there is no variance in God, no shadow of turning; He remains the same — yesterday, today and forever! Thus we can safely conclude that with whichever manner His cleansing “fire burns until all darkness is consumed” as we understand and experience it, LIFE will remain the same either side of death BECAUSE the “loving correction by the One whose essence is LOVE” does not change. Therefore ‘the lake of fire’ that is postulated to be for ALL humanity regardless of belief (according to Don, and it seems you) will be sweet, BECAUSE… as we experience the God’s fiery burnings in THIS LIFE, as per the texts you have given, so shall it likewise be beyond, because God changes not… works for me.
There’s something to be said for logical consistency!
maintenanceman wrote:If Jude thought that God's fire was remedial, why would he use the term, 'snatching them out of the fire'? Would not he say maybe.... Beware lest you find yourself in the grasp of the fire.
Eaglesway wrote:maintenanceman wrote:If Jude thought that God's fire was remedial, why would he use the term, 'snatching them out of the fire'? Would not he say maybe.... Beware lest you find yourself in the grasp of the fire.
Not all that is remedial is pleasant or benign.
the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. (2 Pet 2)
That fire can be remedial is clear in 1 Cor 3:15
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
In Zechariah 3
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
In Isaiah 6
And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,
“Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven.”
Yet in Ezekiel 10 we see the same, as in Daniel 7 and Rev 14
Then I looked, and behold, in the expanse that was over the heads of the cherubim something like a sapphire stone, in appearance resembling a throne, appeared above them. 2And He spoke to the man clothed in linen and said, “Enter between the whirling wheels under the cherubim and fill your hands with coals of fire from between the cherubim and scatter them over the city.” And he entered in my sight.
This is close to 2 Peter 3, where we see the fire is definitely remedial
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed(lythesetai dissolved) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up(heurethesetai- exposed).
Since all these things are to be destroyed(dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed(dissolved) by burning, and the elements(stoicheion) will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
All this aligns with 1 Cor 15 and all rule power and authority being anulled as the adversaries are gathered into one in Christ, the last of which to be destroyed is death.
Something to be said for patient communication and listening too I never said anything about all humanity including believers going through the lake of fire. I dont believe that. What I am saying(pardon me if I am not communicating it well, I am not laying it all off on you, lol) is that God is always the fire.......
So I will ask, do you believe that the scriptures show/tell of post mortem correction? Or do you think all of these things are talking about people in the here and now... on earth breathing living experiencing?
I only ask because you go from Isaiah who is prophesying about Israel to Peter and Paul who are talking about a people who are under a new covenant.
An Old Testament person will stand in the presence of God, where light is fire to darkness, and every hidden thing will be revealed, and that process(in my view) is the correction.
Eaglesway wrote:Something to be said for patient communication and listening too I never said anything about all humanity including believers going through the lake of fire. I dont believe that.
Eaglesway wrote:He is the breaking point, the event horizon, for everyone who ever lived or will live- and thats what Mark 9:49 is about
"Everyone will be salted with fire".
Eaglesway wrote:The nature of the fire is the same. It is the presence of God- glorious to those who believe, terrible to those who rebel.
Eaglesway wrote:But to assune that the experience of something barely spoken of in the scriptures will be sweet when Jesus said it will not be sweet seems a bit illogical to me. God changes not- on this we agree, but we change. Fire transforms, and until the transformation is complete it is destructive to what was even as it creates something new, indestructible. So the same fire brings rejoicing to that which is pure, and tribulation or destruction(apollumi-ruination) to that which is impure- which is why we rejoice when we begin to see that "all rule power and authority will be anulled"- because that means the fire has done its work and there is nothing left but gold silver and precious stone.
But in the ages there are many manifestations of the fire, and all things eminate from Him. Believers are purified by fire in trials and in the discernment of God. The lake of fire will be a different manifestation, something not defined clearly, but alluded to in Mat 25 and Rev 14 and a few other places. Jesus clearly says this experience is to be avoided, and I believe that is in this life as well as the next.
Those who are reconciled by grace through faith have already bowed the knee and confessed with their tongue, "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God the Father. The lake of fire, whatever exactly that will be- is for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.
The nature of the fire is the same. It is the presence of God- glorious to those who believe, terrible to those who rebel. The times and the applications of the glory and the corrections of God are many and diverse through the ages from the beginning until God is all in all, some in life, some in the olam.
Eaglesway wrote:But to assune that the experience of something barely spoken of in the scriptures…
Eaglesway wrote:…I just dont think we should be so adamant about the details.
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