Please help if you can.

Evangelical Universalism and sharing the gospel. What are your thoughts?

Please help if you can.

Postby Caffus » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:46 am

I am trying to spread the true Gospel of Universal Salvation in Christ, the best I can. I know that most Christians believe the written word to be incorruptible, infallible Word of God even in translation. I have been sharing how the words translated as eternal and hell are incorrect....because personally I believe they were translated incorrectly. But they are saying, then that we have to say the Bible has been corrupted in popular translations in order to believe in Universal Salvation. I know that's NOT true and I have seen an article somewhere stating that the term, "eternal punishment" in the Evangelical Universalist view means, that as long as there is sin in the universe there is punishment for it. Which I believe does make sense in the light of all the other scriptures that teach Universal Salvation of all, that ET believers say don't mean all but some of all types of people and then when it says every knee shall bow, they know that has to mean each individual, so they twist that to mean they will do it in acknowledgement and then be cast in the lake of fire. I would like a link to an article I can share explaining that understanding of the term "eternal punishment" if possible. Because, I could explain it the best I can, but if I don't have anything to back my claims it is far more unlikely anyone will believe it. We have a passion for God and others, which is why we want the world to know of His great Love.
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Re: Please help if you can.

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:08 am

I'll let some of the admins, mods and members, give you a link. Just a note here. I think to get someone to make the jump from:

    Believing in ECT to universalism
    Believing in creation science to believing in evolution, big bang, old earth, coupled with Christianity
    Believing in free will to a totally deterministic theological model.

Is like getting someone to jump over the Grand Cannon - on a motorcycle. Take some baby steps first.

I think it is easier to ask folks something like: Let's read the book Love Wins by Rob Bell and discuss the questions he raises. I actually saw this done (by a retired clergy member), at a local Methodist Church I visited.
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Re: Please help if you can.

Postby Caffus » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:23 am

Well, I think your right. I know I cant change anyones mind on my own. However, we are told to share the gospel and I believe Chrristian Universalism is the Good News. I also believe He can use anyone and anything He choses to spread His truths. Now, if someone is saying something about us I know is not true, I think I should let them know its not true....the best I can anyhow. I know I cant make them believe me. But they're saying that we have to say scripture has been corrupted in order to believe in Universalism and that's the reason we say just not true.
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Re: Please help if you can.

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:27 pm

HFPZ said :

Baby steps...

Good council. Much of what is discussed and bantered about here is considered foolishness to outright heresy to many evangelicals. We are plowing new ground here. There will be a new reformation at some point I believe.

Keep up the fight and enjoy. The Gospel is good news. :D

If you are truly trying to show them something that you believe in love they need to know, they will realize that you are not trying to show them you know something that they do not. Love will prevail. :shock:

Meanwhile, enjoy the rich field of very bright minds that hang out here. :!: ;)



P.S. searching the site for key words and ideas in invaluable.
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Re: Please help if you can.

Postby Caffus » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:37 am

Yes, thank you...I found this I guess I don't know how to post links. :roll: But this article shows that some of us hold to infallibility even in translation. To me the meaning of the phrase "eternal punishment" does seem to be twisted to fit universalism. But not as much as needs to be done to fit the Bible to the doctrine of ET. I have believed in UR for about a year and a half now. When I first learned it was true I was very out spoken about it and I was quite angry about the doctrine of ET, as it had tormented me for a long while even truned me away from our Father completely for a while. Then, for a long while I posted very little about UR and just posted worship songs....but I feel its time to share again, but in a much more peaceable and humble manner.
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Re: Please help if you can.

Postby JasonPratt » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:59 am

Winchester is the only author I can think of offhand who allows that the translation for the terms as "eternal" in all such instances (though only a handful have any bearing potentially against universal salvation) is correct, but that the meaning of "eternal" has been shaved down by interpreters -- somewhat similar to the argument that the underlying adjectives and prepositional phrases (in Greek, and in Hebrew and Greek respectively), have been shaved down of their nuances by translators and interpreters, except of course when doing so is too blatantly ridiculous and would never stand such translation.

He also agrees with the idea that so long as sin exists disciplinary punishment must continue, although I'm not sure he connects that idea directly to the translation "eternal" being proper.

I've attached one of the more extensive and searchable editions of his "The Universal Restoration" below. He was an American Baptist evangelist during and after the Revolutionary War, who spent his final years preaching in southern England. His beliefs are still widely standard among Southern and other very conservative Baptists, so aside from his universal salvation beliefs he shouldn't throw any suspicion flags.
1788 Winchester The Universal Restoration (1831 edition).pdf
(12.4 MiB) Downloaded 41 times
Cry of Justice -- 2008 Novel of the Year (CSPA retailer poll).
Sword To The Heart -- metaphysical argument to orthodox trinitarianism (and thence to universalism)
Trinitarian universalist exegetics, on internet radio, or here in forum posts.
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Re: Please help if you can.

Postby Caffus » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:11 am

Thank you...what a wonderful book that is and how priceless to read of the passion in our hearts for the Lord alive in others from so long ago. It is though, so sad to me that the doctrine of endless torment is still so widely taught. The book teaches the same thing most of us teach, that the words translated as eternal forever and everlasting were mistranslated. However this book does it by the way the word is used in context of scripture, so it is still good. How I long for all others to see what we see...but I must be patient for God has a purpose for all He does and allows and a perfect time for all things to come about.
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