EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Evangelical Universalism and sharing the gospel. What are your thoughts?

EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby TotalVictory » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:13 pm

OK: I’m talking about BA here. Full disclosure. I’d prefer BA, if you are reading, that you’d just listen to your new friends here, and let us talk, but doubt you’ll be able to thus restrain/control yourself... Sigh: such is life.

But it has occurred to me that, in BA’s mind anyway, he comes to evangelize us. Imagine: this man, and all his, well, “stuff”, comes into our noble world and presumes to evangelize US!!! Hey: Don’t we ALREADY love the Christ, and proudly claim His name, and our salvation therefrom?? (JeffA has, himself, expressed warmth for the Christ who will redeem all… and I do not take kindly to BA's insult of JeffA at all; I'm repulsed by his comment...) Isn’t it WE who claim to be “Evangelical”?? (in the name of this site at least) Yet HE believes he has been sent from above -- to teach and evangelize US!!

Oh my. The evangelizers evangelized. Who’da thunk it…

Well… I’m stumped. But I do recall that the transformative and singular turning point in MY life of coming to the Christ (‘cept BA doesn’t think I deserve that title…. again, sigh) was via a NEGATIVE example. That is, I came to Christ upon looking deep into the life of one who rebelled against God in ways I had not thought possible… So, maybe (just maybe??) I am to welcome BA as just such an example; a negative one.

First off; Lord, if my witness to you has EVER come across as BA does here, forgive me. Forgive BA too; for he knows not what he does.

But really now my fellow EU participants: how does it REALLY make you feel to be the OBJECT of evangelism? Does it anger you? make you “bristle” just a wee bit? (it sure does me!!) Make you think, in a really strange kind of sanctified disgust; what! -- YOU teach ME?? You have GOT to be kidding!!!

And yet, when you think about it, isn’t that the exact dynamic WE assume whenever we (here, or in our personal invisible-to-this-site-lives) forge ahead to defend the faith and the grace of our savior? When YOU talk to someone about spiritual realities, don’t YOU assume and believe that YOU have something to offer this person with whom YOU interact?? I hope you say yes; ‘cause I sure do.

Which brings up the word/idea of arrogance. BA has it -- in spades!! (Obviously BA lacks that self-insight, nor, I’m seeing now, would he allow himself to see it….) But is it possible God has brought him to our fellowship to tell us that maybe WE TOO have similar tendencies?? (My God the rebukes of the Father can be painful -- to say nothing of embarrassing -- if that is in fact what this is…) What I so respect and love about the mindset of everyone here, is that we retain the healthy self-skepticism that we too operate in that realm where we might be victims of delusion and self deception. My God; even Tom Talbott and Gregory M -- those graceful and brilliant men -- embrace and embody this mindset! We ALL recognize, respectfully, (more apparent with some than others! ;) ) that we might be wrong. THIS, almost more than anything else, is what makes this site so credible for me… (so thank you everybody)

So clearly, BA “does” evangelism in ways that I abhor. Can I, nonetheless, ask God to BLESS this, his flawed (my opinion) witness? Oh my: that hurts. God has a track record of using the VERY flawed as His messengers. We all see BA’s flaws; do we see our own??

All I’m asking here is that we consider what our witness for Christ -- I’ve NO doubt that the love of our Christ animates EVERY ONE of us -- LOOKS like to the outside world. This is incredibly sobering stuff. In my estimation, BA shows us quite precisely how it should NOT be done; might similar flaws exist in MY witness?? Again, these are painful questions that I simply MUST ask myself. It’s far too easy to just brush BA off; sincere, dogmatic, and, speaking for myself only, incredibly annoying.

From my section of the porch, the God of BA looks abhorrent; yet here we are and others might find MY vision of God just as abhorrent. And from my section of the porch, it appears that BA embodies the epitome of a blasphemer: he presumes he alone is able to interpret scripture. (hey wait; did God bring BA here to help US -- or maybe the other way around?? ouch -- getting a headache. Pour me a drink JeffA!!)

In sum, the flaws of BA are too egregious to even enumerate here; what I ask though, is that we quietly listen for the message, dislike the delivery as we do, that he brings with all his bluster and vigor and exaggerated sense of self assurance; a message he may not even be aware he is delivering. We love the messages of the cultivated and soothing messenger; love less the message when delivered by one such as our brother in Christ, BA…

Just think about it. Not sure I really plan to respond and say anything more on this -- if that’s OK with y’all…

TotalVictory
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-- on a tombstone in a quiet cemetery near Savannah Georgia...
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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby JeffA » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:00 am

Bob cubed,

As with Crag's recent post titled It took a St. Paul experience thanks for the insight into your very self. When these veils get lifted (however partially) it's a privilege to get to peek inside another human being. There is no doubt that direct opposition to our views in any walk of life, while making us uncomfortable and defensive, is a good thing as only by being tested can any position stand or fall.

As you know BA neatly dismisses me just because at the moment I don't consider myself a Christian. In order to do this he has to ignore the possibility that I was a Christian who has fallen away (possibly being given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh - but ultimately saved) who is now being wooed back to God through the witness of UR (after having been repulsed from him by ECT). He can't even countenance the possibility of this as it would mean my scripture contributions to the debate would have to then be considered valid and answered.

However, I digress, and finish by saying ultimately his presence is a good thing.
Yours in doubt

Jeff the Agnostic Universalist.
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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby SLJ » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:13 pm

Bobx3,

I agree! We do need to look to ourselves to make sure we walk (and type) as we ought. :) When we see specks in someone's eyes, it's time to check our own for logs. ;)

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James 3:13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

Eph 1:10 ...a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby John » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:05 pm

enjoyed your post Jeff .... that was good one
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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby JeffA » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:24 am

Thank you John.
Yours in doubt

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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby Born Again » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:47 pm

Jeff.

You told me your an unbeliever..now your a backslider coming back to God because of UR? Which is it? I have not dismissed you..I just will not argue scripture with someone who claims to be an unbeliever or whatever your calling your self.. Agnostic, Atheist, backslider, whatever. Which one Jeff?
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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby AUniversalist » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:02 pm

Born Again wrote:Jeff.

You told me your an unbeliever..now your a backslider coming back to God because of UR? Which is it? I have not dismissed you..I just will not argue scripture with someone who claims to be an unbeliever or whatever your calling your self.. Agnostic, Atheist, backslider, whatever. Which one Jeff?


By the way, you haven't once argued Scripture; you just say, "I disagree." or "That is not what it says." but never supply your point of view (which most of all know anyways since we were once in your shoes, but I digress) and when you do discuss Scripture and are cornered and trapped by what it says, you turn around and attack the person who made the point or statement believing them to do so in bad faith.

I changed my communication style with you, because I know you are not here to learn or to even understand what it is that we believe (though as varied as it may be within, this is no different than those who believe that few men are saved and many will burn for infinity [a rather unjust penalty for a finite action of rejection {especially when God is omnipotent and omniscient and will have to live with those who burn for eternity when there is a better more intelligent way to deal with those who reject you, but I digress}]).

Side note:

When you already know BA's arguments and you already know his position, it is easy to corner him in the flaws of that position and his arguments. My weakness, and it is in real life, I do not demonstrate emotional sympathy or empathy very often, I am unkind and do not beat around the bush. I am highly intuitive of a person's agenda's. That doesn't mean I don't care and love them as Christ loves, I am a person who has no time for human drama which amount to nothing in the scheme of things.

So am I complaining about BA's attempt to evangelize us? No, the only bit of respect I have for the guy is the guts to come into a place where he has absolutely no chance of winning and tries anyways (not that I am making this a win or lose situation [we just have a better hope]).

So I am far from perfect, and I do not make any excuses. If someone says I am unkind, I agree; but unloving? No, I love very hard and very passionate. Uncaring? No. I care very much, so much so that I am still playing the bad guy in order that a good guy would be seen.
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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby JeffA » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:51 am

Born Again wrote:Jeff.

You told me your an unbeliever..now your a backslider coming back to God because of UR? Which is it? I have not dismissed you..I just will not argue scripture with someone who claims to be an unbeliever or whatever your calling your self.. Agnostic, Atheist, backslider, whatever. Which one Jeff?

Unlike yourself I am a complex character. As Edmund Blackadder said 'Sometimes I'm nice and sometimes I'm nasty!' (can't be bothered to supply you with a reference to who that is).

I divulged very personal and sensitive material to you about my past in a private message that should have made you think before hurling this kind of crap at me. You on the other hand in your introduction told us diddly squat about yourself (I have also posted the things I told you in my own introduction).

You will note the lack of smiley.
Yours in doubt

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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby AUniversalist » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:41 pm

Sorry Jeff,
As intuitive as I am, I am unable to warn others of people without evidence, this makes me look like the bad guy when I do. However since I did try to warn people of BA before any evidence was created of his intentions, it may not have seemed much as an alert.
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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby JeffA » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:20 pm

No problem Craig :D

All of my encounters with others here over the year and a bit that I've been a member have been illuminating. If nothing else I have learned a lot about myself; so in the long run it's always been a positive experience.
Yours in doubt

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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby Melchizedek » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:34 pm

JeffA wrote:
Born Again wrote:Jeff.

You told me your an unbeliever..now your a backslider coming back to God because of UR? Which is it? I have not dismissed you..I just will not argue scripture with someone who claims to be an unbeliever or whatever your calling your self.. Agnostic, Atheist, backslider, whatever. Which one Jeff?

Unlike yourself I am a complex character. As Edmund Blackadder said 'Sometimes I'm nice and sometimes I'm nasty!' (can't be bothered to supply you with a reference to who that is).



:lol: "Sometimes I'm nice, and sometimes I'm nasty. And sometimes I like to sing little songs, like; "see the little goblin, see his little feet..."

Edmund Blackadder; what a great character! :D
Belief doesn't change what is true, it only puts one in line with what is already true.
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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby JeffA » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:21 am

I had completely forgotten the Goblin part :D
Yours in doubt

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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby Melchizedek » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:53 am

It's frightening how many quotes I can remember from the various BlackAdders. It's probably because I watched them repeatedly for years. Even though I've seen many others since then, it remains one of my all-time favorites. It's certainly among those I consider the funniest British Comedies of all-time.

BlackAdder trying to teach Baldrick to count:

"Right, this is called adding..."
"If I have two beans, and then I add two more beans, what do I have?" "Some beans."
"Yes; and No. Let's try again shall we?"
"If I have two beans, and then I add two more beans, what does that make?" "A very small casserole."
"Baldrick, the ape creatures of the Indus have mastered this... now let's try again; If I have two beans and then I add two more beans, how many are there?" "Three." " What?" ..."and that one". "So if I add that one to the three, what do I have?"
"Oh! some beans!"
"Yes; to you Baldrick, the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it?"

That was all from memory... :shock: :lol:
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Re: EU Evangelism; lessons from our new friend

Postby JeffA » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:01 pm

:shock:

Awesome!
Yours in doubt

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