The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Something i want to ask everyone

The short answer is “Yes.”

The long answer is “Yes” – with the qualification that “making it” doesn’t mean everyone just walks freely into the kingdom in their sinful state. Jesus says in John 3: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nothing unclean comes into the kingdom.

Or as Paul says in Galatians 5: "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

The child rapist must have truly repented – as all of us must truly repent – before he can enter the kingdom of God. Paul writes in Colossians 3: “Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.” The sinful self must die and the person be raised up a new creature, born into the life of Christ.

If we say that some people are so bad, their deeds so evil, they should not be saved – what are we really saying? We are implying that we deserve mercy and grace, but those people over there don’t. Then we become the Pharisee who prayed, “God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.”

The more evil a person is, the more they desperately need to be saved – rescued from their sin, and made righteous. Jesus says there is rejoicing in heaven over a sinner who repents, and that the one who is forgiven much, loves much. The more evil a person is, the more we should rejoice when he repents – it’s not because we are glad that he won’t be punished, we are glad that he has renounced evil and wants to do right – our brother was dead, and now he is alive.

To take a slightly different angle. As long as sin is existing in any person, God is not his Master. Paul teaches in Romans 6 that our Master is whoever we are obedient to. The last enemy to be destroyed is death (which comes from sin), and every knee will bow, and every tongue swear allegiance to God.

When Jesus dined with the tax collector, Zacchaeus, the Pharisees complained that Jesus was being the guest of a sinner. Then … “Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, ‘Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.’”

Basically the same answer as others have given, just had to throw in my two cents as well!

Hope that helps,
Sonia

This is a good question. To understand it properly, we need to understand that the Bible talks about two resurrections - a first and a second.

Will the rapist and Hitler be in the first resurrection? Absolutely not.

Will they be in the second resurrection. Absolutely.

Now the question becomes, “Just who will be in the first resurrection - and the Kingdom of God”?

Read my article on this most important question here: ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Thanks for the question.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). While us worldlings may think of *some *as being unworthy of salvation, God’s revealed truth is that *none *are worthy of salvation. We are not justified by our works, but by grace; we are not damned by our works, but saved by grace. This is the glory of Universalism.

Jason, what a wonderful and insightful post! Thank you.

Even as a non-universalist, this is an interesting question. In traditionalist paradigm, if a child rapist or Hitler repented on their deathbeds, they would still be saved despite having committed a lifetime of heinous sins. Serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer and David Berkowitz became Christians. The hope of the gospel is Christ’s redemption out of even the darkest that sin and suffering has to offer. If we don’t believe that, there is no point us being Christians. Yes, I believe it is a painful experience and one where our sinful desires and behaviours are confronted and brought into the light, but even as a non-universalist, that moral argument should be void.

Concerning the child rapist, in traditional infernalist Christianity the child rapist is saved if he but recieves Jesus before he dies. People ask, what about Hitler? So what about Hitler if in the moments before he dies he remembers being taught about the forgiveness of God as a child and asks God for forgiveness and turns to him? Saved, right? So what’s the difference if it happens on judgment day? Does the grace, love, and forgiveness of God stop when we die?

Not only that, but the teenaged Jewish boy, having reached the (non-scriptural) age of accountability and not having received Jesus before Hitler’s thugs hanged him, goes to hell. Do not pass go; do not collect eternal life.

There are different grades and rewards for faithfulness; otherwise, there would be no point being faithful. That “EVERYONE makes it” does not mean that everyone will receive an identical station or reward. Those who are faithful now, IMO, will eternally be blessed with a “better” station. Those who are child rapists will be eternally impacted by their sins. God will restore all, but not all will receive identical blessings.

When the child rapist understands his sin, truly repents, and makes what restitution he can, believing and obeying Christ as Lord, what problem would we have with that?
That child rapist may well have to go through hell, though, before those things are accomplished.

Repentance NOW is another matter altogether, Dave. I don’t think there is any sin that cannot be forgiven, apart from sinning against the Holy Spirit. I know a man who murdered someone before he was a christian; but he never got caught. After he became a christian and repented… he turned himself in to the police and confessed. I don’t know if this was wise or not; that is another subject… He spent years in prison, and he was subject to terrible abuse. This fellow has been struggling with very low self-esteem. I think he still carries the burden of guilt. I know a rapist also who became a christian. He did many years in prison, and he still lives with the stigma and condemnation from others (he would have preferred to be known as a murderer than a rapist). He has since become a christian, but people still know him as the rapist. I feel very sorry for him (and his victims, of course). Sin is a terrible burden for everyone; but God offers us amnesty in Christ.

How about someone MUCH more evil than the child rapist and Hitler? I think of Satan who influenced people throughout history to commit the most heinous and hurtful crimes? Is it possible that Satan could “make it”, fgoad 88? Origen (185-255 A.D.) thought so:

Hi Steve

Interesting point. I can’t decide whether I agree with it or not :slight_smile: . I believe that all our sins are forgiven, wiped out utterly - as far as the East is from the West, thanks to Christ’s atoning sacrifice. So far, so orthodox.

But I also believe that there must be consequences to what we do in this life. Just as Christ carries the scars of his crucifixion in his resurrection body, so perhaps we must carry the mental and emotional ‘scars’ of our sins into eternity. I don’t know if I would go as far as to say that those who are faithful now will necessarily be “blessed with a better station” in eternity. And of course Christ told many parables in which conventional notions of reward and merit are turned on their head. And yet I think I’m with you in believing that there must be some ‘point’ in being faithful now, when it is often very hard to be so.

All the best

Johnny

Hi Johnny,

I might have over-stated the reward by saying “a better station”, but as we both agree, there must be some ‘point’ in being faithful now. We can speculate as to what that is, and I do so on the basis that the parables make mention of rewards (and punishments) that are measured to our life’s efforts or circumstances. God certainly measures things different to man… we might congratulate the great efforts of a man who has been given every resource at his fingertips, and give very little attention to the man who appears to have achieved little but done a great deal with the little they have. The widow’s mite comes to mind (Mark 12:43, 44): “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.” God sees what man does not see, and this is intended to give us hope that our efforts and struggles are not overlooked by God, even if they are overlooked by man.

Paul also said: “If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14-15) And again, “For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.” We can really only speculate how certain scriptures will be fulfilled. I certainly don’t know… but I do think it is apparent that “To each man He will make an award corresponding to his actions.” (Romans 2:6).

How have you been Johnny? I hope all is good.

Steve

The problem is that there are countless monsters who would need to be brain-washed by God in order to become loving and truly desiring Him.

And I don’t believe that true love work like that.

I agree true love would not do that. But true love would heal that mind. True love would remove the veil that prevents the child from seeing what their heavenly Father really is. Sin is more like a disease that we need healing and rehabilitation from than anything else. IMHO

URPilgrim, Yes. If there is any brainwashing it will be done by the washing of the water of the living Word. :slight_smile:

The best way in my mind to deal with it is to see that God both loves and hates the rapist. In hell he destroys the old sinful self of the rapist and creates a new person without sinful desires during purification. Thus making it impossible for the reborn person to sin. The new person has a new name that was written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

The Bible speaks of God as being a fire. The fires of God not only punish and condemn to extinction by turning the wicked to ash but they purify and correct also. The Lake Of Fire is where the wicked are destroyed and turned to ashes. It’s the second death of body and soul. From these ashes the fires of God create a new person that is free from sin. For the LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and raises up. This is how He operates in the Bible. He desires the salvation of all. For God is the savior of all people. Especially of them that believe.

I sure hope so. What’s worse - child rape or murdering the prince of life? Murdering the prince of life is on all of our heads… Jesus shows up to clarify the “exact representation of the father” and decrees “father forgive them - for they don’t know what they’re doing”. Jesus shows that God the father forgives the clueless. Humans may get jailed and put to death for raping children, but they won’t be unforgiven. It’s the spirit of grace that teaches us to say no to unrighteousness. Right behavior comes from us resting in our blamelessness, not our feasting on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I agree that the child rapist will have a very rough ride, but Jesus is mighty to save, not struggling to save.

No. Such “monsters” have the ability to choose the same as everyone else. After they receive the “treatment”, correction in the Lake of Fire, coupled with God’s direct dealing with them, and possibly the ministry of the perfected sons of God, they will sooner or later submit to the authority of God and develop the personality that God intended each of them to possess.

I think also that most of us who are not monsters, might also require some of the same treatment, albeit possibly to a lesser extent.

Well, let me ask you a question, "If traditional evangelical infernalism is true and the child rapist repents (says the sinners prayer confessing his faith in Jesus receiving Jesus into his heart) then will he be saved, will he “make it”?

Of course he will be saved. The issue of salvation rests not in how bad a person is, but in how good God is. Does love fail? Does Jesus fail to save anyone? Is it God who saves us or is salvation dependant upon how good we are, do we save ourselves?