Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Evangelical Universalism and sharing the gospel. What are your thoughts?

Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby joshuakeel » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:19 am

Hello friends, I'm curious what you think of this tract some acquaintances of mine created. When I first saw it I had an extremely negative knee-jerk reaction and I'm sure quite a few of you here will as well. I'm actually looking for some reasoned responses to some of the characterizations here, though. Jesus is pictured primarily as a destroyer and only secondarily as far as I can see it as a savior. Also the assertion is made that there "may be hope" for those whom Jesus will destroy. Only may be hope? Finally we have the assertion that if you "sin everyday" you are not cleansed, don't know Him and don't love Him. Just hoping to hear some of your thoughts on this. Is this the good news? Is this an effective evangelistic technique?

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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby AllanS » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:55 am

I propose some questions of my own:

Who did Jesus destroy when he was here last time? (Answer: No one.)

When his disciples suggested Jesus call down fire to burn up a village, what did Jesus do? (Answer: He rebuked his disciples.)

What sort of person would be convinced to "become a Christian" on reading this tract? (Answer: The sort of person who would worship the devil himself in order to save his own skin.)

Is it any wonder the church is full of weak, fearful, gullible, hypocritical, self-righteous people? (Answer: No surprise at all.)
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby JeffA » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:02 am

The old man surely?
Yours in doubt

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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby AllanS » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:05 am

JeffA wrote:The old man surely?


Precisely.
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby redhotmagma » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:49 am

JeffA wrote:The old man surely?


yep
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Sherman » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:05 pm

There is so much wrong with this tract that I don't know where to begin. I'd probably just share straight forward with them what I've come to believe concerning UR and see if they are interested in considering it and would like to discuss it or if they are adamantly against UR. If they are open, then I'd share with them why I've come to believe. If not, then I'd talk about soccer or something else.
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby JaelSister » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:00 am

This reminds me of Jack Chick tracts (yikes! Those were scary!). The creator of the tract is so sure that they've got it all sorted. Got God's heart and mind and actions pinned down. They presume to speak on His behalf. I think if you do, you should approach such a task with huge caution. How easy would it be to blaspheme His name?

There is so much wrong with this tract, it's hard to know where to begin. But Christ is surely our primary example of how to witness. And I don't seem to recall the "I'm gonna destroy you unless you believe me" technique being a part of his repertoire. In fact, I'm sure he said that the prostitutes and sinners were entering the Kingdom ahead of the religious.

Plus, I love the way people never really see themselves as being on the list of those being destroyed. Also, I would really like some proof that Corinthians is talking about destroying every homosexual. But that's another topic...
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Michael Thompson » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:13 am

I make the list, looks like I will be destroyed! :twisted: I wish I could have all the years back that I wasted trying to be a follower of this concept of a god. :roll:
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Caroleem » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:52 am

JaelSister wrote:This reminds me of Jack Chick tracts (yikes! Those were scary!).

Especially when they show people literally being thrown into a literal lake of fire. :o :shock: :cry:

I agree with you guys, this tract is all messed up. Talk about taking things out of context and twisting the meaning. :roll:
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Cindy Skillman » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:04 pm

:o Horrifying. Really. :(

Perhaps they might want to think this through a little bit longer?
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby joshuakeel » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:24 am

Thanks for the replies everyone. Unfortunately this is how some people really think Jesus is.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." - John 3:17

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." - Matthew 11:28-30

Seems a far cry from the Jesus of that tract.

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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby corpselight » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:28 am

looks like standard shock tactics. i know that some have been saved through this, that after the shock and repentance they form a solid, loving faith...but...
i can't help but think that this is best as an emergency tactic, like with a self-harming satanist who may've ended up dead from drugs or whatever, like one of my good friends.
though incidentally not a friend i feel it's right to discuss UR with yet.

trying to see this in a positive light and...failing. nope, i don't feel it's a good tract. i'm not convinced a little flyer or a booklet will do much either way, anyway.
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Matt Wiley » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:11 pm

Most of the tracts I've come across in my life have been badly-written, poorly-illustrated, and, worst of all, very cold-hearted and downright mean in their approach and their representation of God. :(
A couple of these have brought on episodes of deep and violent depression and emotional agony for me, so yeah. :(
There are a few that I've run across that are more hopeful and even loving in their approach, or even might be considered to be UR friendly now that I think about (I have one in my wallet like that) and I have even been encouraged by them, but they seem to be rare... :(
I used to leave tracts like this wherever I found them, cuz I think I believed deep down that God would be disappointed with me if I didn't, but now I just tear them up and throw them in the trash (or recycling, at least they're recyclable, that's one good thing about them :lol: )... honestly I don't want anyone else to be subjected to such cruel and graceless junk :(
Well, at least that's my opinion :)
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Revival » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:19 pm

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. :shock:
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Matt Wiley » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:31 pm

Check out the verses following this one, Aaron ;)

Matthew 10:29-31

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.'

Always thought it was interesting how Jesus said those two very different things back to back like that... it's kind of like God saying 'I want you to take me seriously, but I want you to remember that I am for you and not against you.' :)

Or at least that's how I take it. :)

Just some food for thought :)
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby corpselight » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:48 am

edwardtulane82 wrote:Most of the tracts I've come across in my life have been badly-written, poorly-illustrated, and, worst of all, very cold-hearted and downright mean in their approach and their representation of God. :(
A couple of these have brought on episodes of deep and violent depression and emotional agony for me, so yeah. :(
There are a few that I've run across that are more hopeful and even loving in their approach, or even might be considered to be UR friendly now that I think about (I have one in my wallet like that) and I have even been encouraged by them, but they seem to be rare... :(
I used to leave tracts like this wherever I found them, cuz I think I believed deep down that God would be disappointed with me if I didn't, but now I just tear them up and throw them in the trash (or recycling, at least they're recyclable, that's one good thing about them :lol: )... honestly I don't want anyone else to be subjected to such cruel and graceless junk :(
Well, at least that's my opinion :)

i'm with you, mate. it's worth destroying dodgy ones. honestly, with my tiny bit of discernment, i can smell a bad tract a mile off...how in the world could anyone make them? surely they can't lack discernment that badly?!

there was a nice tract i got after the London bombings, about God being our father. it was very loving and comforting. that sort of message is what needs to be out there...not this "repent, vile heathen!" type rubbish.
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby AllanS » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:06 am

Revival wrote:Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. :shock:


Are you an annihilationist now? Don't fear men who can kill the body stone dead. Fear God who can kill both body and soul, stone dead.

Of course, Jesus didn't say "hell", but Gehenna, the local tip. (You feel free to add to the scriptures?) Also, Jesus wasn't a Greek philosopher. He didn't think your soul was a ghost that floated off somewhere when you died, but rather your inmost being, your very identity.

Look at the context. It's all about the fall of Jerusalem. Jesus was saying, "Do not fear these Romans who can destroy only your body. Fear God, whose judgment is coming because you are rejecting me. Unless you repent, you will be destroyed by these Romans and thrown into the tip. Your bodies will be destroyed along with your very identity as the people of God, as children of Israel."
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Matt Wiley » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:07 am

i'm with you, mate. it's worth destroying dodgy ones. honestly, with my tiny bit of discernment, i can smell a bad tract a mile off...how in the world could anyone make them? surely they can't lack discernment that badly?!


I think it's cruel and graceless theology that creates cruel and graceless tracts. :(

there was a nice tract i got after the London bombings, about God being our father. it was very loving and comforting. that sort of message is what needs to be out there...not this "repent, vile heathen!" type rubbish.


That sounds cool, man. Do you still have it? Maybe you could take pictures of it and post it on here? :)

Maybe sometime I could take a picture of the one in my wallet and post it on here.
It's more of a card then a tract (got it from a friend of mine who thought I might like it, and I do), and it's got a cool picture of Jesus wearing a robe that's covered with flags of the nations, and on the back of the card it's entitled Jesus, Lord Of All, and it says:

Please know that Jesus not only died for the world - every nation and tongue - but He also died for you.
He is the God of the multitude and the God of the individual.
He has created a plan for us to live with Him forever.
Please call on Him and ask Him to come into your life.
His love for you is unending!

And then they end by quoting John 3:16.

Pretty simple and encouraging if you ask me. :)
That and it kind of leaves the door open a bit on the theological implications, I think. :)
One could, if they wanted to, look at it from an ET perspective, but then one could also look at it from a UR perspective. :)

Now tracts like this and the one you mentioned I wouldn't mind leaving for someone to find. :D
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Matt Wiley » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:22 am

Allan, I've gotta read up more about that viewpoint, and there may be something to it, but like I mentioned to Aaron, I always thought it was interesting how that verse about caring for sparrows, and caring for us far more than sparrows, is right after the one Aaron quoted.

It's almost like how some parents tell their kids 'I brought you into this world and I can take you out.' :lol:

But then any good parent (i.e. our Heavenly Father), would follow that up by saying something like 'but even though I want you to respect me and take me seriously, I don't want you to be scared of me or freaked out by me... because I love you and care for you, you can trust me, and no matter what you do or where you go, I'll always love you and I'll never give up on you'. :)

I think there are different ways of looking at different passages in the Bible, sometimes it's multi-layered like a poem, and maybe what I'm talking about here is one way of looking at it. :)

Blessings :)

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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby corpselight » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:24 am

edwardtulane82 wrote:
i'm with you, mate. it's worth destroying dodgy ones. honestly, with my tiny bit of discernment, i can smell a bad tract a mile off...how in the world could anyone make them? surely they can't lack discernment that badly?!


I think it's cruel and graceless theology that creates cruel and graceless tracts. :(

there was a nice tract i got after the London bombings, about God being our father. it was very loving and comforting. that sort of message is what needs to be out there...not this "repent, vile heathen!" type rubbish.


That sounds cool, man. Do you still have it? Maybe you could take pictures of it and post it on here? :)

Maybe sometime I could take a picture of the one in my wallet and post it on here.
It's more of a card then a tract (got it from a friend of mine who thought I might like it, and I do), and it's got a cool picture of Jesus wearing a robe that's covered with flags of the nations, and on the back of the card it's entitled Jesus, Lord Of All, and it says:

Please know that Jesus not only died for the world - every nation and tongue - but He also died for you.
He is the God of the multitude and the God of the individual.
He has created a plan for us to live with Him forever.
Please call on Him and ask Him to come into your life.
His love for you is unending!

And then they end by quoting John 3:16.

Pretty simple and encouraging if you ask me. :)
That and it kind of leaves the door open a bit on the theological implications, I think. :)
One could, if they wanted to, look at it from an ET perspective, but then one could also look at it from a UR perspective. :)

Now tracts like this and the one you mentioned I wouldn't mind leaving for someone to find. :D

sadly i no longer have it...it was two (three) moves ago.
google failed as well :(

that card you have is brilliant. simple and loving. that's what they should be! and i like the idea of Christ with the flags, bringing us all together.
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Matt Wiley » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:41 am

Here it is :)
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Matt Wiley » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:42 am

ahhh, it's sideways :? my apologies :oops: ::tilts head to look at picture:: :lol:
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby corpselight » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:59 am

lol!
that's quite stylish, as robes go!
when you said flags, i thought it'd be standard tacky flags, but a good sentiment...but oh me of little faith! Jesus of course comes out looking stylish as always :lol:
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Matt Wiley » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:06 am

:lol:
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby Matt Wiley » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:07 am

Who ever said Jesus wasn't cool? 8-) :)
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Re: Who Will Jesus Destroy?

Postby corpselight » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:57 am

Isaiah may've done, though he may've been saying really that Jesus didn't fit into the norm...and that to me IS cool 8-)
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