The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Being muzzled by orthodox Churches, what to do?

:laughing: I guarantee you he never got past the first few pages. As soon as he found out what it was, Iā€™ll bet he dropped it like it was a rattlesnake!

But seriously, a lot of people ARE becoming more open to it. Perhaps not pastors, but pastors arenā€™t as popular as they once were. Lots of people donā€™t have them (except in the early church form), and find they do quite well with plain old brothers and sisters. :wink:

Incidentally, way off topic, but my husband and I were hiking day before yesterday, and he stepped right over a rattlesnake. I heard a kind of vibrating noise ā€“ like change in the drink holder in your car. And I looked and there was this rattlesnake ā€“ must have been at least an inch in diameter (which is pretty good sized) slithering under the end of the log.

Too fast for me. Iā€™ve never seen one in the wild before and was too shocked to do anything but say ā€œOh, Oh! A rattlesnake!ā€ :laughing: But Iā€™ll bet he wouldnā€™t have done any better. :wink:

But yeah, I definitely didnā€™t want to get close to that boy. It was almost as scary as universalism!

Thank you sydney for all the good points! But I do not go to church anymore because I cannot find a good church in this very conservative county I call monroe.

Christ didnā€™t come to save you. He came to save us. It is impossible to be a solitary Christian, just as itā€™s impossible to expect a toe or finger to live alone in some bottle. Go to your local church. Donā€™t go shopping. Youā€™re not called to be a connoisseur of fine churches, but to be a member of a local church full of weak, fallible, deeply annoying sinners. Donā€™t ask, ā€œHow can this church help me?ā€ Ask, ā€œHow can I help this church?ā€

As for universalism, if it causes offense, donā€™t push it. God will make it clear in his good time. Donā€™t hide it either. Just say, ā€œI believe Godā€™s grace is greater than our sinā€, and smile sweetly. Or, ā€œI believe God is good, and knows what heā€™s doing.ā€ Or, ā€œI believe all things in heaven and on earth will be reconciled to God through the blood of Christ.ā€ Or, ā€œChrist holds the keys to death and hell, not to lock the prisoners in, but to let the prisoners out.ā€

Bingo! Iā€™d bet youā€™re right, if I were a betting man. Knowing my pastor; at best, he skimmed it. More likely he looked at the bibliography and dismissed it. I seem to recall that he had a fairly ā€œdonā€™t confuse me with the facts, my mindā€™s made upā€ tone in the sermons. I even recall him saying at one point that it was something that he had ā€œstudied and settled years agoā€. Well, I thought; time to take another look then, cause this ainā€™t your fathers universalism!

Oh, I know more people are becoming open to it! (Praise God). Many traditional pastors are just way too entrenched in the system (even those trying to break away from the system) to even want to ā€œget itā€. The funny thing is, it seems that a lot of the folks writing books in favor of universalism now were hardcore, dyed-in the wool fundies, (some even traditional-type pastors of various flavors) up until God smacked them upside the head with the truth. :laughing:
Kind of reminds me of the apostle Paul, actually. Donā€™t tell me God doesnā€™t have a sense of humor!

lol, if it were me, iā€™d have been cooing over the poor thing as it desparately tried to get me to leave it alone!
a mate of mine and i encountered a female adder on a path in Cornwall, and the poor thing but on SUCH a display, but we kept at a safe distance and admired her!

sorry well off topic :blush:

itā€™s important to find a group of Christians that you can benefit from knowing AND that can benefit from knowing you too.
whether thatā€™s a church or just regularly meeting up with people that encourage you in your faith, church can take any shape. i expect BrentBor that youā€™ll find other dissillusioned people if you turn over a few rocks! i found that in the UK if not in my home country, but who knows, i mayā€™ve managed to find some there if iā€™d looked harder.
if a church is toxic, stay out of itā€¦that doesnā€™t stop you being friends with those that go, thoughā€¦maybe theyā€™ll get something from your faith in a loving God, even if they donā€™t accept the doctrinal implications of that love YET.

In Tennessee, all snakes are protected by law from being killed. Even the poisonous kind. (Rattlers, Cottonmouths and Copperheads. Weā€™ve had several people die from Copperheads in the past year, as it happensā€“and they arenā€™t even usually fatal! Some snakes, typically the ones that kill by biting like the otherwise rather harmless garter snake, are just as poisonous as rattlers but lack an efficient delivery system and pouches for storing it.)

Several years ago, a highway patrolman caught a woman backing up to see if she had run over a rattler, a couple of counties over from here, and fined her stiffly for it. Insanity.

But the point of course is to protect the relatively harmless constrictor (and biting) snakes from being killed along with the poisonous ones, since all of them help keep the rodent population in control, thus also reducing grain lost to rodents.

Still, they can dang well fine me: if I find a poisonous snake Iā€™m killing it. (My area of Gibson County tends to run heavy with cottonmouths, even though Iā€™ve never personally seen one alive in the wild somehow. Iā€™ve seen copperheads before on rare occasion. No rattlers around here, for some weird reason. Not that Iā€™m complaining.)

Thank you allen for your advice! I shall try to put into good use hopefully soon.

:laughing: Corpselight. It was lucky for that rattlesnake I was so shocked. But yes, snakes are very cool. We used to have one that lived in the bathroom (we had a log house). It was a scarlet snake ā€“ a little one. I used to pick it up and admire its lovely ā€œcoat.ā€

Years later, when I was visiting my folks in FL, I came across a lady in the parking lot of the store I was going to, in obvious distress. She wanted to use my cell phone to call her husband to come and take care of this huge snake curled up in the hollow spot in her car door. It was a (very large) scarlet snake, so I took a towel and picked it up and carried it to some grass at the edge of the parking lot and let it go. She thought I was Crocodile Dundee or something. :wink: It was fun.

Jason, incredible! But yeah, people will shoot all kinds of snakes ā€“ which is a bad thing. I like snakes. I grew up on a lake in FL with two little brothers, so it was a matter of survival that I should like snakes. But if Iā€™d been a little bit more collected, that particular snake would be in snake heaven now ā€“ or maybe snake Sheol. :wink: It isnā€™t against the law here.

I just realized something about your advice allen. While it is good advice, I donā€™t think I will be able to use it because while you say just smile and say one of the responses, I wont be able to do that because while I can be nice, If I get into a debate I donā€™t let it go and I will still argue so I may want to stay put for now.

I can relate broā€¦ Iā€™m not one to take things lying down, nor keep things to myself, very easily either. :neutral_face: I know there are those who can do well in such environments, but I donā€™t think Iā€™m one of themā€¦ and that may mean that Iā€™m immature or behind spiritually, but honestly, thatā€™s where Iā€™m at. :neutral_face:

I havenā€™t officially left the Baptist church Iā€™ve gone to for the last five years, though I havenā€™t gone much in the last yearā€¦
Iā€™ve kept putting off talking to the pastor and letting him know that I no longer wish to be a member there, and to ask him to take me off the rolls, yeahā€¦ been dragging my feet on thatā€¦ hopefully Iā€™ll get up the courage to do it sometime soonā€¦
there are some cool people there, people Iā€™ve connected with, and I do hope to stay in touch with some of them, but I feel that in remaining there either Iā€™d have to hide how I really feel (which is something I donā€™t think I can do) or Iā€™d end up stirring up trouble, which is not something I want to doā€¦ :neutral_face:

Anyways, I think though while some pieces of advice may work for some, they may not work for all. Weā€™re all different, and are all at different places in our journey.

I think some things to take from Allanā€™s advice though is that you shouldnā€™t isolate yourself, and also that you should pray that youā€™d learn and grow in your ability to love and get along with those who see things in very different, and even in very frustrating, waysā€¦ and Allan is rightā€¦ we shouldnā€™t just be asking what others can do for us, but we should also be asking what we can do for othersā€¦ though I will say that we neednā€™t force ourselves to remain in environments where little or no good is coming, either to us or to others, from our being thereā€¦ thereā€™s no shame in walking away in some situationsā€¦

With that said, Allan, I think youā€™re a cool dude, and I appreciate a lot of what you have to say here. :slight_smile:

And hang in there, Brent. I believe God can lead you and guide you to find places where you can learn and grow spiritually as well as where you can serve others. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you :slight_smile:

Matt

Thank you for that ed, but I have another problem, I work on saturdays and sundays now so I really canā€™t go to church. I think I will just worship by myself for a while until I can find me a community I can worship with.

Ah, Iā€™ve been there, bro :wink:

But you donā€™t necessarily need to go to a Sunday morning service (I rarely do myself these days) to have a sense of communityā€¦ thereā€™s this forum, and other places on the internet, thereā€™s people you can talk with over the phone, or maybe like-minded people (if you can find 'em) that you can get together with on your days off, for fellowship and prayer.

When it comes to social networking, I guess youā€™ve just gotta be creative and persistentā€¦ my natural tendency, as an introvert, would be to curl up in a corner somewhere by myself, but thereā€™s that other part of me that longs for connection, so I try to seek it out in whatever way I can.

Worshipping by yourself is greatā€¦ sometimes I go out late at night with my dog to stargaze, pray and wonderā€¦ but then, like the pastor at the Methodist church Iā€™ve visited said, though itā€™s good to connect with God on your own, itā€™s also good to connect with God in a communityā€¦ you need both. :slight_smile:

If youā€™d like, I could try to help you find some people you could connect with, maybe even in your area.

Are you on Facebook? Thatā€™s a good place to start to meet some people. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you, bro :slight_smile:

Matt

Nor do I! I get myself into all sorts of hot water. But as I grow older, Iā€™m getting better at not arguing. First, I just canā€™t be bothered (not enough energy). Second, falling testosterone levels make me less competitive. And third, Iā€™ve learned from long and bitter experience that arguments rarely achieve much, and often create bad feeling.

Iā€™m a slow learner. :slight_smile:

Yeah allen seeing how I am 18 im full of testosterone and get into arguments alot. And yes ed if you could help me find people in my area that would be fantastic! :smiley:

Whereabouts do you live? :slight_smile:

I live in carleton, Mi

Oh okay cool :slight_smile:

Jeremy, aka redhotmagma, here on the forum, lives in Detroitā€¦

Thatā€™s about all I can think of here on the forumā€¦ maybe you could post a new thread, asking if anyone here lives in Michigan?

Iā€™d probably have an easier time hooking you up with people on Facebookā€¦

Do you have an account there?

Blessings to you bro :slight_smile:

Hi ā€“ want to add my two cents to the issue of being muzzled, that is, forbidden to speak about EU. I think the issue is so inflammatory with non Universalists because it is an inflammatory issue. And I think that is also why it is important to be ā€˜outā€™ on it. I think it is up there, in its way, with issues like civil liberties or gay rights or something like that because it goes right to the heart of the gospel and the nature of God. If it could be argued that one of the most important things Christ did when he came was to clarify the nature of God, to show us the Father ā€“ to demonstrate exactly how we are to be in Godā€™s image, and what that means, then whether God is capable of inflicting ECT or came to Love and Save all, and is powerful enough to do so, is central. It is Jesus. For many of us, I think, believing that God could deliberately send anyone to pointless (not point except to inflict pain) endless torture for not believing in ā€˜himā€™ is like saying that God is capable of enormous sadism, or egoism or racism or ā€¦ in short, that God is capable of evil. This is not a minor issue. I know for me personally, ECT caused an enormous crisis in my faith and sanity when I first became a Christian. It was THE point upon which my faith turned and I donā€™t think I was alone. I was terrified of a God who could inflict ECT on people I loved who were not and never will be, Christian. The doctrine is just so important because it is central to whether God is Love or God is Power ā€“ and I would like to suggest that the latter definition is possibly Satanic. It is not possible to be simultaneously Love and also willing to inflict ECT on the majority of humankind. I think that may be why many of us are chaffing at the gag rule. It isnā€™t a minor side issue ā€“ it IS our faith and those who donā€™t believe may, in a way, be more different in their understanding of God and Christ from IU believers as someone who believes that Godā€™s chief prophet is Mohammed or the Christian Identity adherents who also believe that we should return to thinking God ordained slavery. It constitutes a different faith in many ways, since so much is implicated by it, so much changes as a result of it ā€“ for me to keep quiet on this is paramount to keeping quiet about attempting to be a disciple of Christ at all. There may (and are) many times when I do keep my faith to myself and possibly it is not always respectful of other beliefs or faiths to make a point of speaking up ā€“ but at least in the place where we are practising our faith, we canā€™t, I believe, be silent about our faith or vision of Christ.

Great thoughts, Sasha, thanks for sharing :slight_smile: