The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Value of Old Sunday-School Songs?

Hi Pilgrim,

My most formative years were spent attending a Plymouth Brethren assembly here in the UK. My great grandfather switched from being a Welsh Baptist after attending a week of special meetings at a small Brethren meeting hall on the top of the mountain where he lived. My whole family (on my mother’s side) were converted and as a consequence these blood soaked choruses and stories were hammered into me with the double intensity of both friends and family.

The Brethren (as you may already know) are a King James Bible toting hell-fire and damnation sect. Every week for Sunday school I had to learn by heart a different set of bible verses (most of which are still burned into my memory). Despite many songs about the love of God I was always disturbed by the fact that their surety of eternal damnation meant that they had to stress it with at least equal intensity.

Adolescence in that sect (especially as my parents had both died by this time) was a nightmare for me and is in large part responsible for my current theological position (agnostic as to the existence of God but hopeful that if I’m wrong that UR is correct). Which is why I have been rubbed up the wrong way by certain hell-fire board members here on occasion (oh alright… more than a few occasions :wink: )

For me this thread strikes at deep chords within (no pun intended).

Of course as I grew older the songs got worse…

Are your garments spotless are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the lamb?

Are you washed? (are you washed?)
In the blood (in the blood)
In the soul cleansing blood of the lamb?

Hi Amy
thanks for the response.
I’m in the teaching profession and perhaps I’m overly concerned about the influences on young minds. Many of the songs I remember are dealing with great tradgedy or horror, almost like some of our fairy tales, the difference being they’re supposed to be true.
I found this on ‘tentmaker’:

tentmaker.org/FAQ/DoesJesusR … ldren.html
Of course, no-body sings them, but they make an important point.

God bless

Personally, I don’t have any impressions of being hurt by Sunday School songs… but no doubt some are, and I wouldn’t choose to teach my kids (or anyone else’s kids) songs that didn’t appeal to me personally. There’s certainly a place for concern. Fortunately, I think a lot just goes over the heads of most kids. At our church, the kids usually sing modern popular christian songs, which are mostly ok.

The first song you mentioned, I don’t think is very bad, because it says the Father is “looking down in love”, and love is a good motive for seeking to please Him.

I was going to mention “He’s got the Whole World” but Alex beat me to it! :cry:
That’s a good one!

Maybe a lot of how we (and kids) interpret them is dependent on our doctrinal foundation. We never thought of that song as being universalistic–which surely would have been condemned by the Calvinist church I grew up attending–but it sure sounds that way to me now!

Sonia

“Hail the Heaven-born Prince of Peace, Hail the Son of Righteousness”

“Light and Life to all he brings, present with healing in his wings”

“Mild he leaves his throne on High, born that Man no more may die”

“Born to raise the sons of Earth, born to give them second birth”

“Hark the herald angels sing, glory to the newborn king”

One curious by-product of my Sunday School upbringing is that I still retain the ability to sing the names of all 66 books of the bible in order (in no way theologically useful but a neat party trick all the same :wink: ).

Hey pilgrim
(feels like I’m trying to talk like John Wayne…!!)

Just discovered this thread and it’s fabulous question.

Don’t know much about you, but I have three kids who are now adults and my wife and I raised them to take very seriously our church traditions. And that included church participation. We were both very involved in what for us was Sabbath School – given that we worship on Saturday, the biblical Sabbath… But no matter, same idea I think…

I’ve got NO trouble with the song you mention… It affirms the simple fact that it is, as one founder of our denomination has said, critical to “guard the avenues of the soul…” — so of course a child should be taught to “be careful little hands and ears and eyes” and so on… Lesson being just don’t let any old sloop fill your plate! We have control over what enters our minds in many ways! (I mean why should I let anyone else fulfill this task which should be, rightfully, a parents??)

For my money, whats more important is the guiding parent – not the song itself!

That said, (and maybe I’ll think of some more songs to comment upon) I must wonder about a song which I was raised with. I grew up in Africa to missionary parents. (Ethiopia, 1959 - 1969) And there was this song…

Satan makes my heart all BLACK with sin…
Jesus makes it WHITE when He comes in…

Wow – not exactly easy to explain in THESE days is it!!

And I’m incredibly curious why you would ask such a question!

Blessings,
TotalVictory
Bobx3

Hi Jeff - yes, I learned that song too: “66 books in God’s Holy Word, telling the story of Jesus my Lord…” and I still recite it in my head sometimes when I’m trying to find a bible-book. I wonder if it was one of the more useful songs taught.

Hi TotalVictory - and all the best in talking UR to your church.
I used to have nightmares when young (maybe most do) and I wonder now I’m old and grey how I was influenced as a child by my ‘religious input’. I think that whilst ‘God loves you’ was pre-eminent, there was always the underlying threat. I think that a lot of fear was instilled very deeply and ECT is quite a concept to young minds.
I just wonder how many of the old SS songs had this underlying message of ‘the REAL Bogy-man in the sky’.
‘Mr Noah built an ark’ for example is dealing with a matter worse than genocide.

You are probably right. Maybe different children with various dispositions may take different things from it.
Although it mentions ‘looking down in love’ the over-riding tone for me was a sort of 1984 Big Brother watching for anything less than perfect. Note how the ‘Father looking down in love’ isn’t interested in taking pleasure over seeing a child do good, or rewarding good actions. The only interest this ‘song-Father’ has is looking for any blemishes. Does that portray how you or I love our children?

I agree that without doubt I owe my faith to the living faith I saw in my parents. They are the biggest influence but good parents would also want to eliminate any harmful influences from outside the family.

You mean the good guy is always dressed in white etc.? Yes. Thank the Lord we have moved on from that.

How about this one I sang:
“Satan is a sly old fox
If I catch him then I’ll put him in a box”
-seems like nonsense to me.

Or:
“Round the walls of Jericho…”
which is about God killing His ‘enemies’.

contrasted with:
“How did Moses cross the Red Sea…” - I have no problem with this one as the primary message seems to be the salvation of people from slavery.

As I get older, I tend to think that the influences in formative years are embedded very deeply and maybe we could ‘clean-up’ some of the messages we pass on to the next generation.

and may God bless you too. Thanks for the interest.

I think it portrays that if we cross certain boundaries we are giving a foothold to the devil.
“Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Gal 3:6

That exact song is used with great effect in Casting Crowns’ "Slow Fade" (click here)

The man in the video was not careful what his little eyes saw and where his little feet went. . .
Destruction, in his case, was the end of his marriage and the wreckage of another broken family. . .

Hi Gem:

I wish I could see that in the song myself. If I could, I’d have no problem. It mentions nothing about how we give a foothold or how we put ourselves in jeopardy. Instead, it talks about the Father, rather than the Devil.
Thanks for your thoughts though.

pilgrim,

when we fall into the traps where our little eyes and little feet can take us, we are like the prodigal son. Imagine the prodigal son singing the song, heeding its warning, and sparing the grieving of his father’s heart. Does that help?

Somewhat off topic but related, I was thinking today about a song (not a SS song though, one that is on the radio and sung in church) that I used to think was “dangerous” because it teaches universalism.

See how it says EVERYONE gets treasure?

Yes - that helps thanks.

We sing that in our church too! I’ve often wondered if the song’s lyricist is implying universalism. It reminds me of the text “The Saviour of all the world, especially those who believe.”

I grew up in the Catholic church, so we didn’t have SS songs, but my husband and I have 8 children and we taught children’s church in a baptist church down south once upon a time for a little while. Some of the songs I remember using follow. Most of them have actions with them. And in thinking through them, I have no discomfort with the messages our children took away:

“This Little Light of Mine” I’m gonna let it shine. Shine all over (name of town). Hide it under a bushel? NO! I’m gonna let it shine. Don’t let Satan blow it out, I’m gonna let it shine. Let is shine let it shine all the time.

“Deep and Wide” (Deep and Wide, Deep and Wide, there’s a fountain flowing deep and wide)

“Father Abraham” had many sons, many sons had father Abraham, and I am one of them, and so are you, so let’s just praise the Lord (with the right hand, next round add the left, then add rt foot, then rt hand, then turn around)

“Read your Bible, pray every day and you’ll grow grow grow” (repeat and grow bigger each round)
Neglect your Bible forget to pray and you’ll shrink shrink shrink (repeat and grow smaller till you are in a heap on the floor)

This one, we changed the words slightly to what we felt was more accurate terminology (From My God is so BIG, there’s nothing my God cannot do):

“My God is so GREAT” so strong and so mighty, He’s able to do everything. The mountains are His. The Rivers are His. The stars are His handiwork too. Repeat refrain.

This one is to the tune is an old TV commercial. “Oh I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner” :laughing:

“Oh I wish I were like Jesus Christ my Savior. Like Jesus I would truly like to beeeeee. Cause if I were like Jesus Christ my savior, then all the world would see His love in me”

Hey, everyone! I know this should technically be my introductory post, but I found this thread to be all too interesting to pass up. I’m Liliana, by the way. Hope to meet everyone on here soon. :wink:

I also grew up attending a Catholic church, so some of these songs a bit foreign to me. I never went to sunday school (just Sunday mass), but my mom would play Christian music (for kids) in the car while driving from church and to Sunday brunch. Now, I’ll admit, some of the songs played were a little “pointless” – and by pointless, I mean not teaching Christian values as much as providing nice clean entertainment for the kiddies.

But you gotta wonder. . . “Jesus Loves the Little Children.” As heartwarming as that song is, does it really convey a message further than “Jesus Loves You?” I mean, like I said, it was one of my favorite songs growing up, but what sort of values is it teaching children? I suppose it’s teaching kids to love one another (as Jesus loves everyone this Earth), but I like Christian songs that outwardly teach kids to love one another. What does everyone else think? =)

O.K. I’m rambling. Glad to be here!!! =D

Hi Lily,

Welcome :slight_smile:

That song says that Jesus loves “all the little children of the world”.

What does that mean to you?

Welcome Liliana! Check out this song by the David Crowder Band about God’s love for us called “How He Loves”:
youtube.com/watch?v=TCunuL58 … detailpage

Welcome, Lily!

Do you mean you’d rather have the songs teach practical ways of loving?

Sonia

Welcome Lily :slight_smile:

In addition to Jesus Loves Me, He’s Got the Whole World in His Hands, and Jesus Loves the Little Children- there are many choruses and hymns that I grew up with that still stick with me today including but not limited to:

He Knows my Name (the earliest affirmation of my divine belovedness)
I have a Maker
He formed my heart
Before even time began
My life was in his hands

I have a Father
He calls me His own
He’ll never leave me
No matter where I go

He knows my name
He knows my every thought
He sees each tear that falls
And He hears me when I call

This Little Light of Mine (a passionate response to Jesus’ call to be witnesses)
This little light of mine- I’m gonna let it shine
This little light of mine- I’m gonna let it shine
This little light of mine- I’m gonna let it shine
Let it shine, Let it shine, O Lord, let it shine!

Jesus gave it to me- I’m gonna let it shine
Jesus gave it to me- I’m gonna let it shine
Jesus gave it to me- I’m gonna let it shine
Let it shine, Let it shine, O Lord, let it shine!

Hide it under a bushel? No! I’m gonna let it shine
Hide it under a bushel? No! I’m gonna let it shine
Hide it under a bushel? No! I’m gonna let it shine
Let it shine, Let it shine, O Lord, let it shine!

This is the Day (A reminder to rejoice in the Lord in dark nights of the soul and in times of rejoicing)
This is the day, this is the day that the Lord has made that the Lord has made
I will rejoice, I will rejoice and be glad in it and be glad in it.
This is the day that the Lord has made I will rejoice and be glad in it
This is the day, this is the day that the Lord has made.