Yes, please do, Jason. I read an Christian Universast response to this and will try to find it after work, as well.

Hey Kate!

I’ve decided to go Catholic. I need a little more structure in my life. I love that picture of you. You are very pretty!

I remember contributing years ago to a fairly wide discussion of it on a thread here; back during our first year I think. Heh, in my giant compilation notesheet, which is still missing a huge number of things I haven’t even ported to that yet (aside from more research needed on some topics), I have a stub entry saying go to the forum and port in my discussion of it!

The overly short answer until I can get there is that the Greek of the sentence involved is notoriously goofy in its grammar, and can mean that John is asking a little rhetorically “Is there a sin that leads to death? I am saying do not ask me about this!”, thus questioning whether there is any sin that would render a person outside the prayers of Christians for their salvation from sin.

I’m glad someone reminded me of it though; I need to find my notes and port them in.

I will also note in passing that, in combination with 1 John 3:8 about the works of the devil being destroyed, if there was a sin such that no Christian should pray for the sinner’s salvation from that sin (which just sounds ridiculous when spelled out like that but whatever), the death would be annihilation not any kind of ongoing sin.

(So I’ll drop my notes on that so far, until I can find what I wrote about 5:16! )

By the context of 1 John 3:8 the work of the devil is the practicing of sin. (e.g. “The children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:10 only two verses later.) We all however were children of the devil in that sense, whether to the smallest degree, and in some sense we thus remain until we become perfectly righteous as God is righteous – nothing less than that! (“Little children, let no one deceive you: the one who practices righteousness is righteous just as He [God] is righteous!” v.7)

If sin is not eventually completely destroyed, so that no one is doing unrighteousness anymore, then a chief purpose of God in the Incarnation and Passion has been finally and ultimately frustrated, whether by God’s own decree or (worse??) by Satan or other created sinners doing works of unrighteousness stronger than God’s salvation!

This must involve either annihilation of sinners without repentance, or universal salvation of sinners from sin. But to destroy the works of even the devil himself is not necessarily to destroy the person of even the devil himself, or else we all would be annihilated instead of saved from our sins. The question either remains open or, by this testimony, at least slightly in favor of final salvation (not annihilation) of sinners.

Okay, phew, after several hours of trying to figure out what happened here at the office (one of our routers finally bit the dust), I’m back online and have (finally!) found my notes in an old thread from 2008.

I need to update and redraft them considerably – I think I was translating them a little wrongly, not taking account of a dative form for part of the grammar. Still neutral to universalism or not for various reasons, but I’ll post the collated argument in an Exegetical Compilation entry sometime in the next several days.

Thanks for the explanation, Jason, and thank you for the kind words, Cole. Jason, I look forward to reading what else the forum had to say on this in the past.

I’ve come to take it as God can’t work in someone who stubborn refuses to repent, thus such a sin is a “sin unto death.” That person refuses to accept life freely offered, and therefore can’t be open to receiving it. I’ve translated it according to how Sonia described a few years back in an earlier thread:

Of course, this doesn’t render the situation hopeless-- just that such hardened sinners must endure purification now until God opens their minds to life.

The thread which contains that quote is here:

[What is the sin unto death?)

I think I argued that was a reasonable interpretation, too. At least theologically – I don’t think the theory covers the local context data quite as well.

Hey [tag]Kate[/tag]! Are you still out there? Id love to discuss all this from a catholic perspective!!! Ive been confirmed a Catholic for 2 years…

As long as this is a Roman Catholic thread, I thought I would bring this up. There is a book I liked and read entitled Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian by Paul F. Knitter. He is a Roman Catholic, professor of Catholic theology, a former Roman Catholic priest and a practicing Zen Buddhist. It has also gotten good reviews and ratings on Amazon. In the article Catholic Church Opens Up To Yoga And Meditation, it said this:

Any thought from our Roman Catholic contributors here? Or anyone else, for that matter!

I also found this article What are the differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism? interesting.

Don’t worry about any challenges. Personally, I like the philosophy of Japanese Jujitsu and Aikido. Don’t start fights and avoid them at all costs. But if someone attacks me with a “virtual” knife or punch, I turn the opponent’s force against them.

It is not a sin to not attend a mass. It is a good habit to meet with believers, but not being there will not mean you will go to hell, not literally. You will not lose salvation for not attending, if you were in prison or something I don’t understand how you could be expected to go. Also it is true that many enter hell, Jesus said that. As for the meditation comment, I suggest staying away from yoga. Meditation is to focus on a singular topic in your mind. I.e meditating on the word of god is to recite it in your mind.
‘Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.’ - Philippians 4:8.
‘You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you.’ - Isaiah 26:3.
‘I will lift up my hands toward your commandments, which I love, and I will meditate on your statutes.’ - Psalm 119:48
Be careful of what you learn attending any congregation or even what the pope has said. Many are deceived. Grace be with you. Amen.

I suppose for someone trying to follow the Russian Orthodox path of the Holy Fool, I sometimes like to push the envelope. If you use or have the name Augustine, then you know he was a proponent of the guilt and stain of original sin, passed down through the generations - something the Eastern Orthodox have a different theological take on.

If Roman Catholic theologians teach inclusivism since Vatican II, then I like to join some of their more adventurous types. Roman Catholic theologians like to play with Buddhist Zen and Indian Vedanta. Sikhism

Vendanta says that all paths or traditions can lead to God. Christian Vedanta says all paths or traditions can lead to God in Christ. Here’s a definition of Zen:

The word Zen(禪) is the abbreviated form of Zenna or Zenno, which is the Japanese transliteration of the Chinese word Ch’anna. It comes from the Sanskrit “dhyana”, which means quiet contemplation ( Christian-Zen).

Now Father Bede Griffiths is part of the Christian Ashram Movement. Another Catholic priest writes a book entitled The Pipe and Christ: A Christian-Sioux Dialogue. Other Catholic clergy go off and learn Zen. Then there is the idea that all religions share a common mystic ground. This underlined point is explored by Catholic writer Wayne Teasdale in The Mystic Heart: Discovering a Universal Spirituality in the World’s Religions

I guess I’m just joining the Catholic direction of inclusive exploration, under the umbrella of the Russian Orthodox Holy Fool movement.

Eastern forms of meditation are dangerous for people like me. According to NeuroWiki:

I would suggest the scripture:

Here’s some Christian meditation. It’s a beautiful musical C.D. with psalms being read. It’s called “Soaking In The Psalms”

Hi Cole:

I agree that meditation might be detrimental to folks with mental illnesses. They should also clear this first with-both a medical professional (i.e. psychiatrist and/or general practitioner) and someone providing psychotherapy or counseling.

I appreciate the Christian meditation you shared. I especially like Catholic writers, who explore both Catholic theology and Eastern traditions. Like Father Bede Griffiths with Indian spirituality and Thomas Merton with Zen. Of course, the Eastern Orthodox and Quaker traditions have their own meditative and contemplative traditions.

There is a rehabilitation center and nunnery in Wheaton, run by Franciscan sisters. What’s interesting is they have a Tau center, where that have different spiritual programs. They have a Buddhist meditation night, a Keating Centering Prayer night and a drumming circle. In fact, one of the women who comes is studying Peruvian shamanism and models the center altar in the Peruvian shaman traditions - all supervised and participated in by a Franciscan nun. I thought I would add this.

My pastor said something last week that I agreed with, I think. He basically said secular meditation it more about emptying the mind, whereas Biblical meditation is about filling our mind with God’s word. While I am sure exceptions exist, that seems most true from my research.

For me, meditation IS about “emptying” (more to the point, quieting) my mind so that I can experience and hear from God.

Good thought Cindy.

Meditating On God

You got it, Cindy. There is a book I liked and read entitled Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian by Paul F. Knitter. He is a Roman Catholic, professor of Catholic theology, a former Roman Catholic priest and a practicing Zen Buddhist. But the essence of why he does what he does is your quote. Same philosophy as the Quakers, who sit in silence. Now here is a question. If folks here (along with those from Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy who also do) believe in Universalism, why worry about a Christian embracing any form of meditation?

Because the scientific evidence shows that it’s dangerous for people like me. I don’t empty my mind but rather fill it with beautiful and lovely things. Part of that includes the beautiful parts of the Bible. God speaks through the Bible. Meditating on spiritual truths of scripture is simply pondering them and seeing how they apply to my life. I went to a Oneness Universalist church where they did some Hindu meditation and one of the ladies said she was seeing people she had never seen before. The lady directing the meditation said that it was common for people to see things during meditation. It’s creepy and dangerous.

Perhaps, Cole. I said before I agree that meditation **might **be detrimental to folks with mental illnesses. They should also clear this first with-both a medical professional (i.e. psychiatrist and/or general practitioner) and someone providing psychotherapy or counseling.

Having said that, there’s a paper on the US government website by Michael McGee, MD. It’s entitled Meditation and Psychiatry. In the abstract, it mentions these questions the paper addresses:

How might meditation promote wellness and healing from psychiatric illness?
How might it contribute to the practice of psychiatry?
To be honest, I have not conducted any research into the scientific literature on this topic. It’s something I could do through the College of DuPage online library resources. But it seems you have both pros and cons. And I know there is much scientific experiments and data, showing the benefits of certain types of meditation.

Randy,

It’s not people who are mentally ill in general that it’s dangerous for but people who are prone to psychotic states. It’s a specific type of mental illness. There are benefits for some people. I’m going to stick with filling my mind and meditating on lovely and beautiful things. Not emptying it.