The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Predestination and Free Will

Dear KKJ,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Later I will take time to fully digest and respond to your thoughts. Here are a few of my immediate thoughts. One of the supporting arguments for my universalist beliefs is that “ultimately” God is the “cause” of everything, and because God is loving and “good” by nature, then the result of all history must be a good one. Whether my decisions are “freely” made or not is irrelevant to this argument, if you look at it in this perspective. The point I was making is that nothing that happens in our “space-time” world is “self-caused.” Every decision we make is a result of antecedent “causes” which led up to it. All our choices are “predetermined,” if not directly by God, then they must be determined by “random processes” which were set in motion by God. The way God views the future, whether as “probabilties,” or “possibilities,” or as “certainties,” certainly would affect the ways in which He relates to us, ie. whether or not He is genuinely “suprised” by our responses and changes His actions in response to ours. The Scriptures definitely describe God’s interactions with us as “open” to change, and our actions as beeing “freely” made, as we are held accountable for them. However, even if our actions are “freely” made, and even if the future is subject to change, even when viewed from God’s perspective, that still does not answer the question, “why do I choose “differently” from you.” Why am I different from you? Did God make me different, or is my uniqueness a result of random processes which were initiated by God? The point is that although I am “free” to make what ever choices I desire, was I really “free” to choose my own uniqueness?

I wrote an essay about this, called “The Twinkie Defense,” in which I explain this dilemma. The court was lenient to Dan White, who killed Harvey Milk and Mayor Mosconi, because his actions were affected by “diminished capacity” which was a result, in part, of his poor diet, ie. lots of cokes and twinkies. Technically, all of our bad choices in life are a result of some form of “diminished capacity” and can be traced to antecedent “causes,” many of which where not under our direct control. Technically, no decision we make is “self-caused.” Therefore, why does God hold us “accountable” for our actions? My conclusion is that He holds us accountable for the sake of our personal growth & development and for the sake of those who are affected by out actions. Ultimate responsibility for our “bad” choices, or credit for our “good” choices, however, belongs to God. In a sense, God did assume that responsibility at Calvary. He no longer holds our bad choices against us. And, He wants us go give Him credit for the good in our lives.

If you look at it a certain way, it is a sin of “pride” to “judge” others as being “deserving” of God’s judgments (or Hell), because, but for the grace of God, we would find ourselves in the same position as they, given the unique set of circumstances which led to their decisions.

My two cents

Concerning freewill

Peter says we are to willingly feed the flock of God not by constraint but of a willing mind.

1 Peter 5:2
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Constraint is something that limits freedom of action. Examples: force, compelling, threats.

Therefore, we are not to feed the flock because we are forced to feed them.

We are not to feed the flock because we are compelled to feed them.

We are not to feed the flock because of threats.

We are to feed them willingly from a willing mind.

If God is pulling all the strings then we are forced or at least compelled by those strings to feed the flock. This is totally contrary to what Peter said. And the Psalmist backs up Peter here.

Psalm 32:8-9
8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. 9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

If one must be led about by God with bit and bridle they are no different than the horse or mule that has no understanding.

The problem with understanding the freewill of man is that most believe that because there are causes and influences that bombard us from all directions mans will is not really free to make a choice.

But freewill is making a choice REGARDLESS of the influences that bombard us.

I have often likened it to the cartoon where on one shoulder the devil sits and on the other shoulder an angel sits. Both the devil and the angel try to influence man to follow their directions. Neither the devil nor the angel can make the choice for man; man’s will is free to follow whichever influence he wants.

Paul says Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness

Freewill is the choice to follow whom you will REGARDLESS of the influences that bombard us.

Neither God nor the Devil can take away our freedom of choice, man either YIELDS to one influence or the other; whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness.

That is why God said

Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death

And in another place said

I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Concerning predestination

Predestination simply means to determine before.
BEFORE man makes a choice God has determined that if man chooses death, man will walk in the way of death, if man chooses life man will walk in the way of life.
This is seen here
Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death
And in another place said
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The problem with predestination is that most believe that God predetermined man to walk in the way of death and man could not do anything about this, yet no scripture ever states such a thing. However, the two scriptures I supplied above show emphatically that what God predetermined is life or death and man can freely chooses which way he walks.

Predestination is concerning life or death, NOT concerning the freewill choice of man. Thus when man chooses death man has chosen this predestination. And when man chooses life man has chosen this predestination.
Thus, freewill and predestination are reconciled.

Concerning foreknowledge

Foreknowledge is the knowledge of things happening before they happen.
God foreknew that if men choose death man would walk in the ways of death, and God foreknew that if men choose life man would walk in the ways of life.

The problem with foreknowledge is that many equate foreknowledge with predestination. They are NOT the same thing. Just because one knows beforehand a certain event will take place does not mean that the event was predestinated to happen.

Example: I knew BEFOREHAND that most here would reject what I had to offer on these topics, does that mean then that all who have rejected what I have to offer was predestinated to reject it? Hardly.

God’s foreknowledge does work closely in hand with predestination but they are not the same thing. God foreknew the two ways given to man to freely choose from. God foreknows all the ways of death and every step man will make when following the ways of death. God also foreknows all the ways of life and every step man will make when following the ways of life.

What God does NOT do is predestinate by foreknowledge that man walk in the ways of death or life. This according to God Himself is man’s choice.

Man chooses the way of death, and God knows all that man will go through, all the suffering and evil, because He knows all the ways of death. Tis the same with the all the ways of life.

God bless

Dear Pneuma,

Thank you for your response. Your line of reasoning is the commonly accepted view in most evangelical circles. I believe, however, that you are equating “free agency” with “free will.” You still do not answer the questions, “Why am I unique and different?” and “Why are my choices different from yours?” I agree with you that God does not “predestinate” in ways that prevent us from making our own choices. I don’t believe that God directly “orchestrates” all human events. I do believe that God has set truly “random” processes in motion that do “influence” our desires and choices in life. Ultimately, but only in a very indirect sense, God is the “cause” of everything, including our own uniqueness and the resulting choices we make in life. For this reason, and because God is “good,” the very epitome of self-sacrificing, Agape love, I believe that God will eventually bring us all to full repentance and redeem His entire creation.

Richard

Thanks for your response. I can tell you given this a lot of thought. I’ll try to make a couple comments.

Richard: …“ultimately” God is the “cause” of everything, and because God is loving and “good” by nature, then the result of all history must be a good one. Whether my decisions are “freely” made or not is irrelevant to this argument, if you look at it in this perspective.

kkj: OK, I think I see where you are going here. But if everything proceeded from God (who is love and good) in the kind of cause and effect way that you are describing, there would be no way to account for evil. I understand that you are saying that everything will come back around again because it can’t diverge from the nature of God forever, and that might be true, but how do you account for evil in the meantime? I account for it in libertarian free will (LFW). So, whether or not we a free to self-determine has a lot to do with how we (free will theists) account for evil. Evil emerges out of divergence from the goodness and love of God, and this is only possible if we are libertarianly free to do so.

Richard: Every decision we make is a result of antecedent “causes” which led up to it. All our choices are “predetermined,” if not directly by God, then they must be determined by “random processes” which were set in motion by God.

kkj: In order to posit LFW, it’s not necessary to say our choices are completely free of ‘outside’ influence, it’s only necessary that we have the power to do otherwise. If our choices are predetermined by whatever, then we cannot possess LFW.

LFW is important because it is necessary for genuine reciprocating love, understanding the origin of evil, and some other stuff like, moral responsibility.

Richard: The point I was making is that nothing that happens in our “space-time” world is “self-caused.”

kkj: If by ‘self-caused’ you mean that we are the ONLY factor in the choice, then yeah, no one is saying that we could ever be independent of influences, but if we can have a bunch of influences upon our will and still retain the power to do otherwise, then we are actually free to choose. If there is an ultimate cause behind our proximate cause that is actually the determining factor for what we do, then it cannot be true that we are free.

…“our space-time world”… There is only ONE metaphysical whole, and ONE time: NOW. However many ‘dimensions’ there are, they are not temporally disjointed from one another.

Richard: “why do I choose “differently” from you.” Why am I different from you? Did God make me different, or is my uniqueness a result of random processes which were initiated by God? The point is that although I am “free” to make what ever choices I desire, was I really “free” to choose my own uniqueness?

kkj: I’m not totally sure if I’m tracking with you on what you mean by, “random processes initiated by God.” But let me take a stab at this… There are a lot of things are we are not free to choose in life, but what is important is whether or not we are free with respect to moral choices. I don’t choose my parents but I choose whether or not I love and honor my parents at any given moment.

The uniqueness of our situations arise out of chance, and the exercise of LFW. It’s not only chance that I was born on the date that I was. My parents exercised LFW 9 months earlier. (As much as I’d like to think that my parents are virgins.) But there might have been chance involved in which genetic traits I inherited from which parent.

For me, LFW and chance account for this “randomness.”

Richard: Technically, all of our bad choices in life are a result of some form of “diminished capacity” and can be traced to antecedent “causes,” many of which where not under our direct control.

kkj: right, this is precisely the issue that got me thinking on UR to begin with. There are always layers of misfortune and deception at work that impinging upon people’s ability to make good choices. “…the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

I’m not a universalist, but this what got me thinking about questioning eternal conscious torment.

KKJ,

I love your responses, and it looks like you have been willing to meet me at least half way. In the morning, I will answer you in more detail, particularly regarding the origin, nature and purpose of evil.

Love in Christ,

Richard

Your choices are not different then mine Richard. Everyone has the same choice LIFE or DEATH.

And it depends on who you yield your members to serve determines which path you are on.

I don’t believe God is the cause of everything, Jesus said the tares are of the devil. So to me it is obvious God is not the cause of the tares.

I also believe God will save all Richard and He will do it through love and we will respond to Him through love not because He pulled our strings and made us love Him but because we truly love Him.

Richard I hope you will not mind if I join in on this part of the conversation also, as I do have much to say on it.

You are more than welcome to join in.

Richard

Sorry that I have been dragging my feet. Had a very busy day today. I’ll post some more thoughts and responses tomorrow.

Blessings,

Richard

Who is the landowner? God. Who does the hiring(electing)? God. Does it say that God hires everybody? No. This is a parable of salvation using everyday human situations. In this case it’s farming labor. Ever seen a farmer hire everybody in the whole world to work in his farm? No. “Narrow is the way and few find it.” Why? God. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent draws him.” Why? God. So Universalism is just plain heresy. Get off your high horse and stop putting your pride above God. Why? Your not God. Have a nice day.

God doesn’t need to know how many times we took a crap in the toilet all our lives. Predestination is election to salvation before the foundation of the world if not the universe. It’s only about salvation and salvation by grace alone. We are just seeds to God and if God chooses not to water us then we will not grow(saved). There are New Testament parables that make this point. Without water and sunlight, plants don’t grow and can’t do anything about it. “No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws him…” It’s that simple.

Hi zzap999,
Welcome to the forum. :slight_smile: We’d love to hear a bit more about yourself and your beliefs if you’re willing. You can start a thread in the Introductions section to do that. My impression from your comments above is that you are a calvinist, but I might be mistaken. In any event the introductions thread would be a good place to clarify that sort of thing.

Oh, and the comments above are more than a little bit trollish and rude. Tone it down a bit if you are really interested in being involved on this site. Accusing people of “heresy” with your first post won’t win many friends or arguments. :wink:

All the best,

Steve

That’s good to know :slight_smile:

:laughing:

Hi zzap999,

Your emphasis about God not needing to be aware of when we’re on the toilet (but only of who he wants to save) sounded to me like you’re one of them radically Arminian open theists who thinks God doesn’t know many things. Your view is welcome here, although you may get a little pushback from some of us who see God as quite omnisciently sovereign and interested in the smallest details, even being close to us in the crapper. Maybe you can give us some idea of your background that led to your view of this. Have a nice day, Bob

Btw, I agree that no one can come without being drawn, but when Jesus affirms about the cross, “If I am lifted up, I will draw every one to myself,” He is quite powerful, and I trust that he is sovereign enough to know that He can pull it off.

Zapp, As the others have said, everyone is welcome here, and everyone is welcome to expound on their views so long as they’re able to do so courteously and respectfully. The above is neither courteous nor respectful. It’s not your doctrine I object to (though I disagree). It’s your tone. So long as you can modify that successfully, you’ll have a good time here and find friends. Do give us an intro if you’d be willing. Everyone would like to know a little more about you. :slight_smile:

Did you forget the verse after that? “33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.”
In other words, Christ violent crucifixion was going to be public and will draw a lot of attention by many. Yet you read in some universalist salvation into the verse. Really?

The doctrine of predestination is only in regards to salvation as mentioned in Romans 9 and other verses. The act of repentance to Christ whether it be privately or publicly is just a formality. Just like in the book of Acts where it was the Holy Spirit that convicted the crowd and drew them to repentance and not due to some fancy preaching. We have freedom to choose but no where in scripture does it say it is absolute freedom of choice. Human freedom is not some absolute wall that God cannot penetrate. The moment you start saying to yourself, God saved me because on my own I ultimately made the choice or that I triggered God to save me due to my choices. That’s were you fall into error. Our repentance is a by product of election, not the cause of it. Even if you say, well God saw into the future who will repent and therefore wrote down the names in the Book of Life ahead of time, you are still saying you still caused God to write your name down. In other words, it’s still about you and not God.

That is actually a really good point and I am very glad you brought this up. It is too bad God shows partiality, doesn’t love everyone, and even worse yet, punishes them eternally because He failed to do His very best for them.

There are New Testament parables that make this point. Without water and sunlight, plants don’t grow and can’t do anything about it. “No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws him…” It’s that simple.

I don’t think it’s quite that simple. Some verses do sound like predestination although some that are quoted are not actually about salvation like Rom 9.
About 10 times as many tell us to repent and make choices. Clearly God intervenes when he wants but not always and IMO gives us enough rope to use as we will.