Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Post up on thoughts that are not related to the other forums in THEOLOGY.

Can a person who does not believe in God live a generally moral life by choice?

Yes
7
64%
No
2
18%
I am uncertain
2
18%
 
Total votes : 11

Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:03 pm

maintenanceman wrote:
Are your arguments about total depravity something that you need to be reconciled with, but can't quite get there, or are you truly in opposition to fulfilled grace. I use that term on purpose as opposed to Christian Universalism. There are a lot of different ideas floating around.


What's fulfilled grace?

What does it have to do with total depravity?

How does it compare to Christian Universalism?
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:37 pm

Read the Channing piece. It has the answers.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby qaz » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:01 pm

DaveB, the formatting of that piece makes it unpleasant to read. Can you paste a link to the site you got it from? I do want to read it.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:10 pm

Here ya go qaz. The first 5 paragraphs can be ignored - the paragraph beginning "To return: the principal argument..." is where the meat of the essay begins.

http://www.wizduum.net/book/moral-argum ... inism-1809
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:18 pm

DaveB wrote:Read the Channing piece. It has the answers.


The word "depravity" is not mentioned at all in the posted material. The word "depraved" just one time:

" It is plain, that, were a human parent to form himself on the Universal Father, as
described by Calvinism, that is, were he to bring his children into life
totally depraved, and then to pursue them with endless punishment, we should
charge him with a cruelty not surpassed in the annals of the world"

Which is not an objection to depravity but to endless punishment, not applicable to those who support Calvinistic-Universalism.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:20 pm

The entire argument is right there, Origen. The word 'depraved' does not make the argument or break it - it is the argument itself. Surely you can see that? Thousands before you have understood it very well.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby qaz » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:26 pm

Thanks Dave. I didn't finish it but I really liked what are I read.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:45 pm

You're welcome qaz. :D
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:08 pm

Origen; wrote:
maintenanceman wrote:
Are your arguments about total depravity something that you need to be reconciled with, but can't quite get there, or are you truly in opposition to fulfilled grace. I use that term on purpose as opposed to Christian Universalism. There are a lot of different ideas floating around.


What's fulfilled grace?

What does it have to do with total depravity?

How does it compare to Christian Universalism?


I like this:http://www.pantelism.com/redemption/fulfilledgrace.html
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:32 pm

DaveB wrote:The entire argument is right there, Origen. The word 'depraved' does not make the argument or break it - it is the argument itself. Surely you can see that? Thousands before you have understood it very well.


I've read several parts of it. I saw nothing related to any argument against depravity. I've already debunked in detail a lengthy 3 argument article against depravity that no one here has addressed. Does this guy have anything new to add? Maybe someone who's read it can sum it up briefly, as this guy seems awfully long winded.
Last edited by Origen; on Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby davo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:39 pm

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DaveB wrote:Surely you can see that? Thousands before you have understood it very well.

Don’t hold your breath Dave, this old maxim still rings true…
One will not see what one does not want to believe
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:53 pm

I keep forgetting that, dang it. Okay - breathing........ :D
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby LLC » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:45 am

Origen; wrote:" “BECAUSE of the effects of the fall, that original relationship of fellowship with God was broken and man’s entire nature was polluted.


Do these people even read the Bible? There are many who had fellowship with God, for example, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Elijah, Job, Samson, Samuel, David, Solomon, Moses etc. etc. The list goes on and on.

Origen; wrote: But that conscience has been affected by the fall so that it cannot be a safe and reliable guide.
[/quote]

This is basically denying the Spirit of God that speaks to our hearts and minds. As I mentioned previously, such words came from the mouth of a serpent even before the fall. " God told you this? Really?" One thing is true, that after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, it did affect their conscience. They were both ashamed of what they'd done and it changed them for the better because they found out God's words were true. This is the reason why they left the garden as it says in Matthew 10:36 " He who finds his life will lose it , and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:17 am

LLC wrote:
Origen; wrote:" “BECAUSE of the effects of the fall, that original relationship of fellowship with God was broken and man’s entire nature was polluted.


Do these people even read the Bible? There are many who had fellowship with God, for example, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Elijah, Job, Samson, Samuel, David, Solomon, Moses etc. etc. The list goes on and on.



How does a list of a few people who had "fellowship with God" relate to, or disprove, the statement [not mine BTW] you are responding to?

I'm quite sure Calvinists read the Bible. They even seem to put more emphasis on that & holy living than Christians in general.

BTW, as regards David, for example, from your list, even after having "fellowship with God" he committed premeditated adultery & murder. This man who is said to be after God's own heart.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:34 am

LLC wrote:
Origen; wrote: But that conscience has been affected by the fall so that it cannot be a safe and reliable guide.


This is basically denying the Spirit of God that speaks to our hearts and minds.


How do those words (not mine) deny that? Do you deny that sin affected a fall in Adam & Eve?

Is the Spirit of God speaking to the hearts & minds of suicide bombers to blow themselves & others into pieces?

Was the Spirit of God speaking to the hearts & minds of those of Noah's time:

Gen.6:5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Did that include Noah? Who later found grace with God?
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:57 am

Here's a question, that has been puzzling me. Would the world come to believe in Total Depravity, if the Zombie apocalypse
( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_apocalypse) were to occur?

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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:39 am

Origen; wrote:I've read several parts of it. I saw nothing related to any argument against depravity. I've already debunked in detail a lengthy 3 argument article against depravity that no one here has addressed. Does this guy have anything new to add? Maybe someone who's read it can sum it up briefly, as this guy seems awfully long winded.


If you're not interested enough in actually getting answers to read a 15 minute essay, I'm not going to do it for you.
No offense - I don't think you've debunked a thing. I don't think you have actually thought this through on your own yet. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps yu are sincere, perhaps you are getting off on trolling. I'm not sure.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Paidion » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:04 pm

It is my view that each of Adam's descendants has inherited from Adam and Eve a nature that has a tendency to sin (or do wrong), but CERTAINLY HAS NOT inherited a nature that is totally depraved and can perform no righteous acts.
Last edited by Paidion on Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby qaz » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:05 pm

Paidion wrote:It is my view that each of Adam's descendants has inherited from Adam and Eve that has a tendency to sin (or do wrong), but CERTAINLY HAS NOT inherited a nature that is totally depraved and can perform no righteous acts.


That's my view too, paidion.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:58 pm

DaveB wrote:
Origen; wrote:I've read several parts of it. I saw nothing related to any argument against depravity. I've already debunked in detail a lengthy 3 argument article against depravity that no one here has addressed. Does this guy have anything new to add? Maybe someone who's read it can sum it up briefly, as this guy seems awfully long winded.


If you're not interested enough in actually getting answers to read a 15 minute essay, I'm not going to do it for you.


Sorry, i'm not feeling motivated to read or address the essay.

Evidently others (yourself included) are not motivated enough to respond to my refutation of the 3 argument article that took me hours to write up & post in this thread.

In chess that's what you might call a "stalemate".

In my thinking, though, you've been checkmated, mate! :D
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:13 pm

Of course you do.
I see now where you are coming from, and that actually I'm wasting my time with you.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:13 pm

"Fallen, that's the way we all begin" [4' minute song]:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shANsSX ... _a6aMB_wyc
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The Meaning of Salvation

Postby Paidion » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:35 pm

There seems to be 5 main views about salvation and what it means.

1. Inclusivism (I think that's what it's called)

In this view Jesus' sacrifice covers everybody automatically. So everyone has been automatically saved as a result. But from what are they saved has not yet been made clear to me. Would God have sent everyone to hell forever, if Christ had not died for us?

2. Calvinism
Jesus' sacrifice covers all the elect. The elect are saved from everlasting torment. The non-elect will have to undergo it.

3. Fundamentalism
Jesus sacrifice covers everyone who acknowledges that he is a sinner, and who accepts Christ as his personal Saviour or who believes in the efficacy of His saving grace. Everyone who accepts Christ is positionally righteous and will go to heaven. Everyone else will have to undergo eternal torment.

4. Works Righteousness
Do enough good works and avoid evil works and you'll make it to heaven and avoid hell. Actually, I've never met anyone who actually believes this, but those subscribing to Calvinism and Fundamentalism think this view is ubiquitous.

5. Early Christianity

The purpose of Christ's sacrifice is to deliver us from sin, and be purified in this life, and be zealous for righteousnes so that we will become fit for the next. This purification is a life-long process. The apostles Paul and Peter expressed this.

Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.


However, if we never enter the door of salvation and undergo this process in the present life, we will need to be corrected in the next life. Out of His LOVE, God will provide exactly what we need to correct us. This may be severe, but never more that we absolutely need. God never acts out of retribution, but only out of LOVE—always.
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Re: The Meaning of Salvation

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:21 am

Paidion wrote:There seems to be 5 main views about salvation and what it means.

1. Inclusivism (I think that's what it's called)

In this view Jesus' sacrifice covers everybody automatically. So everyone has been automatically saved as a result. But from what are they saved has not yet been made clear to me. Would God have sent everyone to hell forever, if Christ had not died for us?


Inclusivism is best covered in the article at Inclusivist . And not everyone is "automatically saved". But I am also "hopeful" all are saved, as covered in Purgatorial Conditionalist .

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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby LLC » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:33 am

Origen; wrote:How do those words (not mine) deny that? Do you deny that sin affected a fall in Adam & Eve?


I gave you my answer here:
LLC wrote: One thing is true, that after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, it did affect their conscience. They were both ashamed of what they'd done and it changed them for the better because they found out God's words were true. This is the reason why they left the garden as it says in Matthew 10:36 " He who finds his life will lose it , and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."


Origen; wrote:LLC wrote:


Origen; wrote: But that conscience has been affected by the fall so that it cannot be a safe and reliable guide.


This is basically denying the Spirit of God that speaks to our hearts and minds



As the Bible says: "For the word of God is living and active sharper than any double edged sword. It pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
And as Romans 1:18 -20 "For he wrath of god is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made..."

Paidion wrote:It is my view that each of Adam's descendants has inherited from Adam and Eve a nature that has a tendency to sin (or do wrong), but CERTAINLY HAS NOT inherited a nature that is totally depraved and can perform no righteous acts.


I disagree. Ezekiel Chapter 18 discusses this. "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge'? As I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. Behold all souls are Mine; the soul who sins shall die..................."
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:25 am

Origen; wrote:Sorry, i'm not feeling motivated to read or address the essay.

Evidently others (yourself included) are not motivated enough to respond to my refutation of the 3 argument article that took me hours to write up & post in this thread.

In chess that's what you might call a "stalemate".

In my thinking, though, you've been checkmated, mate! :D


Image

That's Origen - chatting with Dave - but also addressing us.

It's not motivation. It's time. There's only so many hours in a day. And my time is pretty booked (i.e. learning languages, social media engagement, helping a homeopath, promote and publish a repertory, church and wisdom traditions, etc.).

At the end of the day, those presenting the best logical arguments - doesn't make a theological concept true. And I'm sure God will tell, the logicians among us - the same thing...At the end of time. :D

One can use logic and scripture - to prove:

    We are all products, of a hard, theological determinism (Puppets on a string, in the Matrix trilogy)
    Everything in Christianity, is ideas in the mind of God . No matter. Never mind. (i.e. Mary Baker Eddy and Bishop Berkeley)
    Etc.

But it doesn't make it true. :lol:

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."-- Bernard M. Baruch


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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:48 am

Origen said it WAS a matter of motivation, not time. And that's fine with me. My point was and is, that a difficult problem, one puzzled over for hundreds/thousands of years, cannot be cleared up with no effort or a link to a site that takes 20 seconds to read 'the answer' - those sites have their uses, but not for giving pre-packaged answers to issues that need to be thought out.

If we want answers, if we really believe that an issue is important, we have to put in some time thinking the problem through, and reading the best case that can be presented. Which I did imo.

But onward and upward!
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:50 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:It's not motivation. It's time. There's only so many hours in a day. And my time is pretty booked (i.e. learning languages, social media engagement, helping a homeopath, promote and publish a repertory, church and wisdom traditions, etc.).


Someone sounds very busy. What's the secret? Coffee or Chinese green tea?

Motivation is relative. If you're highly motivated to do certain things, will you do other things instead that are of little motivation, interest or low priority?

What motivation is there to post in this thread? Does anyone here actually think they're going to convince the others?

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:At the end of the day, those presenting the best logical arguments - doesn't make a theological concept true. And I'm sure God will tell, the logicians among us - the same thing...At the end of time. :D


There's usually someone who can present a better argument.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness."
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:59 pm

Origen; wrote:Someone sounds very busy. What's the secret? Coffee or Chinese green tea?


Definitely tea. But I'm usually at a quandary - between Jasmine, Indian Chai, Earl Grey or Oolong

Image

Origen; wrote:There's usually someone who can present a better argument.


Which raises two questions:

    Who determines what is the better argument?
    And what is the criteria?

Origen; wrote:1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness."


Which gives justification, for the Holy Fools tradtion. :lol:

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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Paidion » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:42 pm

I disagree. Ezekiel Chapter 18 discusses this. "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge'? As I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. Behold all souls are Mine; the soul who sins shall die..................."
We are responsible for our own sin.


LLC, I fully agree with you that we are responsible for our own sin. However, I fail to see why you think that fact is not consistent with what I wrote.

I wrote, "It is my view that each of Adam's descendants has inherited from Adam and Eve a nature that has a tendency to sin (or do wrong)..."

Why do you think we cannot have inherited a TENDENCY to sin, and yet be responsible for our own sinful choices?

There is a growing body of scientific evidence that alcoholism has a genetic component.The tendency to drink to excess may be inherited:
https://www.verywell.com/alcoholism-is-it-inherited-63171

Does that mean for you that alcoholics who have inherited a tendency toward alcoholism are not responsible if they become alcoholics?
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby davo » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:49 pm

Paidion wrote:Why do you think we cannot have inherited a TENDENCY to sin, and yet be responsible for our own sinful choices?

I’m inclined to think if we’ve “inherited” anything it is a tendency to sin OR to good, i.e., we are genetically wired to ‘choice’. The bible often points to the consequences of either.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:55 am

davo wrote:
Paidion wrote:Why do you think we cannot have inherited a TENDENCY to sin, and yet be responsible for our own sinful choices?

I’m inclined to think if we’ve “inherited” anything it is a tendency to sin OR to good, i.e., we are genetically wired to ‘choice’. The bible often points to the consequences of either.


"Outside of Pelagianism, most orthodox Christianity believe that the Spirit must work in a person before they believe."

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... 81/page-26
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:03 am

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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby davo » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:29 am

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:
Paidion wrote:Why do you think we cannot have inherited a TENDENCY to sin, and yet be responsible for our own sinful choices?

I’m inclined to think if we’ve “inherited” anything it is a tendency to sin OR to good, i.e., we are genetically wired to ‘choice’. The bible often points to the consequences of either.


"Outside of Pelagianism, most orthodox Christianity believe that the Spirit must work in a person before they believe."

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... 81/page-26

Likewise from your link this is an interesting quote… “The accusation of Pelagianism is simply a way to demonize and marginalize those who disagree with these Calvinistic doctrines.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby maintenanceman » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:59 pm

davo wrote:
Paidion wrote:Why do you think we cannot have inherited a TENDENCY to sin, and yet be responsible for our own sinful choices?

I’m inclined to think if we’ve “inherited” anything it is a tendency to sin OR to good, i.e., we are genetically wired to ‘choice’. The bible often points to the consequences of either.


Okay :lol: I'm going to stir the pot so to speak, First of all, we need to address what this tendency to sin is. If that sin is just a moral pointer to doing wrong, we have to ask what the wrong is and to what degree do we have to understand the wrong and where it comes from. So in other words, who is making the determination to what is sin? :lol:
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:05 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:I’m inclined to think if we’ve “inherited” anything it is a tendency to sin OR to good, i.e., we are genetically wired to ‘choice’. The bible often points to the consequences of either.


"Outside of Pelagianism, most orthodox Christianity believe that the Spirit must work in a person before they believe."

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... 81/page-26

Likewise from your link this is an interesting quote… “The accusation of Pelagianism is simply a way to demonize and marginalize those who disagree with these Calvinistic doctrines.


I wonder how many Pelagians, semi Pelagians & wannabe Pelagians are posting in this thread:

"Pelagianism, also called Pelagian Heresy, a 5th-century Christian heresy taught by Pelagius and his followers that stressed the essential goodness of human nature and the freedom of the human will." (Brittanica.com)

Evidently it is in disagreement with Christian churches & history in general, not just Reformed.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby davo » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Yep Pelagius fell afoul of Augustine and Co.’s Romish rule, being duly declared a heretic by the orthodoxy of the day… there was plenty of Rome the likes of Calvin still clung to.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby LLC » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:31 pm

Paidion wrote:There is a growing body of scientific evidence that alcoholism has a genetic component.The tendency to drink to excess may be inherited:


Paidion, being the child of an alcoholic myself, I have no problem whatsoever with alcohol. I also have four siblings who likewise have no problem with alcohol. On the other hand, I know people who have drinking problems, whose parents never touched the stuff. I can only conclude from this that these scientists are wrong in their assumptions. If two sinful parents produce a sinful child, then it would logically follow that two righteous parents would produce a righteous child. However, I don't see this being the case. Neither is this the case with Adam and Eve. Abel was righteous and Cain was not. Adam and Eve were human, just like the rest of us, and as such, we do not know all things because we are not God. Although a baby is born with legs, he/she does not jump out of the womb and run; nor does the child start doing calculus in kindergarten. The same goes with the spirit. We all have the spirit, but we must grow in that spirit.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby LLC » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:43 am

I believe as it says in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these Truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
We were made to exist as sovereign individuals, coming together collectively as a whole; in other words being a king amongst kings in union with the One true King(God) or I am at the right hand of the great I AM. Did you ever notice when you're talking to someone, if you are sitting while they're standing, or vice versa, it is very uncomfortable. The same goes with other things. I feel weird when people don't make eye contact when speaking to me. If I go shopping with a friend, it doesn't seem right if I'm buying and my friend is not. I can hardly stand being at the same table and eating in front of someone who is not eating. I think such things are inherent in us. We don't like inferiority. I am a firm believer in teaching a man to fish. This is why I'm adverse to any doctrine or teaching that does not teach you of the Spirit of God that is in you and fails to build you up in the Spirit as an equal. (As an added note, I don't believe this has anything to do with material possessions.) So to me, the doctrine of total depravity just doesn't meet the criteria. Likewise, saying that we have inherited sin from our parents leads one to believe that he is incapable of doing anything about it. Jesus showed us otherwise.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:19 pm

LLC wrote:I believe as it says in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these Truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
.


Does this apply to zombies also :?: :lol:

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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Origen; » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:49 pm

LLC wrote:Likewise, saying that we have inherited sin from our parents leads one to believe that he is incapable of doing anything about it.


That depends.

If the sin is an extremely powerful force, but one that can be resisted by the will alone (or by the will in co-operation with the grace of God), then created beings are capable of doing something about it.

OTOH if created beings in slavery to sin are like dead corpses in their graves, can they do anything to resurrect themselves?

1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.


For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby davo » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:36 pm

LLC wrote:I believe as it says in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these Truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal,…

That must really grate against and get stuck in the throat of the Calvinist of any consistency as their doctrine of ‘election’ makes it plain and clear… all men are NOT created equal.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:38 pm

That's a damn good point.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:40 pm

DaveB wrote:That's a damn good point.


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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:09 pm

You're a bit off your game, Randy? That was NOT a zombie, unless they are paying more attention to personal hygiene these days. :lol:
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby davo » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:18 pm

If a non-believer is immoral by birth but becomes moral by belief what does that say about said belief when that now moral person behaves immorally? Apart from the arrogance underpinning the basic belief of TD it is only ignorance that then tries to pin it on God’s chest.
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:08 pm

Thanks Randy ;)
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:30 pm

davo wrote:If a non-believer is immoral by birth but becomes moral by belief what does that say about said belief when that now moral person behaves immorally? Apart from the arrogance underpinning the basic belief of TD it is only ignorance that then tries to pin it on God’s chest.

This is big. :o
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Re: Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Postby DaveB » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:58 pm

George MacDonald "followed Plato in thinking that evil was. to a large extent, a result of deprivation and not depravation. Human beings sinned because they did not see the truth clearly, and to have a clear vision of God would mean that they would be so overwhelmed by his love, that all wrongdoing would be immediately set aside. Seeing right was the beginning of acting right, and Christ was the clearest picture of God given to humankind"
-http://www.george-macdonald.com/articles/theology.html
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