God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

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God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Paidion » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:43 pm

This is a story about which my mother used to wonder. She found it "strange" and "mysterious" and "hard to understand" but she never questioned its veracity, for it was written in the infallible and flawless "Word of God" (the Bible). It is found in 1 Kings 13:1-32

In short, a man of God, a prophet, made a prophecy to an altar upon which King Jeroboam was making offerings to other gods. He prophesied that the altar would be destroyed. Jereboam, stretched out his hand toward the prophet, and said to one of his servants, "Seize him!" His hand immediately became withered or paralyzed so that he couldn't move it. He then asked the man of God to pray to Yahweh to restore his hand. The prophet did so, and it was immediately restored. Jereboam was so grateful (or perhaps it was the thought he'd better not mess with a prophet whose prayers God answered) that he invited him to his home to eat and drink, with a promise of a reward. But the prophet said, "Even if you give me half of your possessions, I will not go. For Yahweh commanded me not to eat or drink while away, or return by the same route."

But an old prophet from Bethel learned from his sons what the man of God had done. So he rode and met the man of God and invited him to his house for a meal. Again the man of God refused on the basis of Yahweh's commands. But the old prophet said, "I, too, am a prophet. An angel told me the word of Yahweh, that I was to bring you to my house for a meal. But the old prophet lied. No such angel had appeared to him at all. But the man of God did not know this. He knew that Yahweh sometimes changed his mind, and probably thought that He had done so on this occasion. So he went to the lying prophet's house and ate with him. Then Yahweh spoke to the man of God through the lying old prophet, "Because you've disobeyed my instruction to you, your body shall not come to the tomb of your fathers." So after the man of God had eaten and drunk, he rode away on his donkey, and encountered a lion that killed him. The lion and the donkey stood beside his body. People who saw it told the old prophet. The old prophet said, "That is the man who disobeyed the word of Yahweh. So Yahweh gave him to the lion." Then the old prophet rode to the body, laid it on his donkey, and brought it back to the city. Then he laid the body in his own tomb, and mourned his death, crying, "Alas! my brother!" After that he requested his sons that when he died, they would lay him in the same tomb—lay him beside the man of God, "For," he said, "The word of Yahweh against the altar in Bethel and against all the houses of the high places in Samaria shall surely come to pass."

Why did the prophet lie to the man of God? Did he WANT God to kill him? Yet he seemed to truly respect the man of God since he wished to be buried with him, and declared that the man's prophecy from Yahweh, would surely come to pass. Was the lying prophet punished, or even rebuked for his deception? There is nothing in the record that suggests so. And does that fact indicate that Yahweh APPROVED of the prophet's deception? Is obeying minor commands such as He gave the man of God, more important to Yahweh than refraining from lying or deception?

These are questions for which I have no answers. Any thoughts?
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby davo » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:22 pm

Paidion wrote:Why did the prophet lie to the man of God?

(1) Perhaps simply because he was a pathological liar i.e., “a false prophet”. (2) Perhaps because being as dishonest as he was figured “the man of God” may be somehow a means of tapping into the King’s wealth (given what was apparently on offer, vs. 8).

Paidion wrote:Yet he seemed to truly respect the man of God since he wished to be buried with him, and declared that the man's prophecy from Yahweh, would surely come to pass.

Again it is pure speculation… perhaps having been previously rebuked for his many deceptions (lies) ruled him out as being a prophet of Yahweh; and yet he carried on regardless in his (no-doubt known to all) many deceptions; remaining ever envious of the real thing.

Paidion wrote:Was the lying prophet punished, or even rebuked for his deception? There is nothing in the record that suggests so.

Perhaps this false prophet’s ostracisation and isolation from the service of Yahweh was punishment enough? And yet selfishly in his own death perhaps sought nearness to God by proximity to “the man of God” in the grave?

Again since the text doesn’t actually give us these sorts of details we are left to “fill in the gaps” with what we DO know of the human condition, etc.

Paidion wrote:Is obeying minor commands such as He gave the man of God, more important to Yahweh than refraining from lying or deception?

Hardly… the whole incident would appear to show a major lapse in judgment on behalf of “the man of God” – seems harsh BUT there are details we are simply not given, and as the saying goes… “to whom much is given much is required” – perhaps such was the case here?
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:09 pm

It seems to me that there should be some kind of moral to the story, but what is it? This man of God comes from Judah to denounce the altar of Jeroboam. On the other hand, we have the son of Solomon, Rehoboam, ruling over Judah who doesn't seem to be much better. If he was following in his father's footsteps, he was probably worshipping other gods as well. Besides that, Rehoboam sounds like a tyrant and a slave driver. The story goes on to say that the old prophet lied, but again, the man of God disobeys as well. Obviously, the old prophet's prophecy came true, so I wouldn't say that he was a false prophet. Then in verse 31 he says "Alas, my brother!" I don't really know, but it seems to me that maybe the moral of the story would be that before you go preaching to and judging someone else, you'd better get your own house in order first.????
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby davo » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:28 pm

LLC wrote:Obviously, the old prophet's prophecy came true, so I wouldn't say that he was a false prophet.

Though he remained “a false prophet” Balaam had moments of speaking truth…
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby JasonPratt » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:27 am

The gist of the story suggests that the "old prophet" was about to die himself. It's quite possible God did kill him (or Jeroboam; see later!) soon after he made arrangements to bury the younger prophet in honor -- an honor the younger prophet might not have gotten had he died later.

This is one of those stories that stand as evidence that even a legitimate prophet of God can mislead people as a prophet of God, and be in rebellion (whether well-meant or not) against God. The underlying word for "disobey" is "rebelled against" and it's the same word used of Aaron and even Moses at Meribah in Numbers 20:24 and 27:14.

Presumably, though, the younger prophet, being under fierce temptation not to eat or drink until he returned home, should have discerned that either this guy was lying for some reason or had himself been fooled by a devil masquerading as an angel. Also, the old prophet didn't say he was passing along a command to the younger prophet; and didn't even say it was the angel or presence of YHWH himself but only an angel. God might make allowances for previous orders, but He wouldn't send mere angels to announce that. Moreover, the old prophet was himself living in the same Israel city of Bethel where Jeroboam was worshiping with the altar -- but neither he nor his sons had been asked to do anything there, which at best casts aspersion on his honor that some other prophet would be called to do so, and even suggests he was complicit in the idolatry going on. The younger Judean prophet should have been suspicious when this guy from Bethel shows up on the road and invites him back to Bethel to eat and drink. (Which also by the way would void the command not to go back by the same road.) Note that the old prophet makes his lie about the angel after hearing the command of YHWH Himself -- the younger prophet should have been suspicious that the older prophet wasn't at least confused why a mere angel would come to him making an offer against the command, or perhaps seeing it as a test and so (since there wasn't an anti-command involved) encouraging the starving young prophet to keep going, maybe with support provided by the old prophet.

In fact, the old guy should have been notorious already to the younger prophet, if 2 Chronicles 11:16-17 correctly reports the situation. Jeroboam had been interfering with priestly families caravaning down to Jerusalem to serve their courses in the Temple there (and otherwise interfering with any local priestly duties of theirs, appointing other people as idolatrous priests instead), so all the priestly families had packed up and moved down to Judah, inspiring anyone who devotedly cared about God (possibly including this young prophet who knows his way to, from, and around whichever Bethel this is in Israel) to migrate south, too. (At the time Reheboam was acting much more faithfully to God.)

So who is this old prophet still in Bethel with his sons and/or disciples? He's someone who should have been opposing the situation but who hadn't been, or Jeroboam would have been persecuting his school. This is something that should have been at least suspiciously suspicious to the younger prophet. It turns out later that this guy already had a tomb reserved near the Bethel idolatrous altar along with the priests serving there!!

In a way things turn out as well as they could under the circumstances, since the old prophet actually comes to penitently honor and validate the younger one, and takes a public stand in validating him. Jeroboam had already tried to kill the younger prophet for speaking out against the idolatry. The older guy there in the same place, just volunteered to be killed by the evil king.

Later (in 2 Kings 23) when Josiah arrives to fulfill the prophecy, he burns the bones of the priests and prophets buried near the idol's altar of Bethel (actually burns them on the idolatrous altar) -- but spares the bones of the younger and the older prophet, for both of them had stood up against the altar and had prophesied his coming.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:43 am

Here's some further commentary, from the Protestant site Got Questions: What can we learn from the man of God and the lying prophet?
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby JasonPratt » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:44 am

As a followup, it's possible that the younger prophet was already in some rebellion against God when the older one caught up to him, for he was found under an oak. Although resting under shade trees is a tempting prospect, hardcore devotees would be leery about doing so even in observant areas because the areas were also public restrooms and may have been easily defiled -- moreso if Gentiles had possibly been camping and/or pooping there! This applies to trees near a road, btw, not to trees well back from a road. Although even then you'd want to be careful your hair didn't get caught in low-hanging branches (since those who hang from a tree are cursed per Torah). Worse, in a time and place like Bethel-of-Samaria where this is happening, pagan sacrifices were being made under trees whether near the road or not.

The younger prophet couldn't have gotten far out of Bethel already, and he's already resting under an oak tree apparently near the road. For us that wouldn't have been a big deal, and after all he must have been starving and dehydrated. By the principles of hard kosher Torah observance, though, he shouldn't have been caught dead under that tree! -- nor gone near it even for shade, considering the stringency of the terms of his self-sacrificial mission, where he would only survive by a miracle from God: not drinking for three days on a round trip of four to six days. The command not to go back the same way, means it would be impossible to take the shortest route both coming and returning. (The area wasn't a desert yet like today, but dehydration is still dehydration.)
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby JasonPratt » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:47 am

That point about the tree has some interesting connections to the story of Zachaeus and Jesus in GosLuke, by the way.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:29 pm

My question would be, was the man of God really a man of God? For God told those in Judah, not to go up against their brothers in the first place. So, it would seem to me that the man of God disobeyed that order and went to Bethel anyway to start some trouble. Again, if he was a man of God, then the first place to start preaching would have been Judah, seeing that Rehoboam himself needed a little instruction.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:54 pm

Then again, maybe the man of God was instructed to leave both places and not look back. This would be similar to the story of Lot and his wife.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Paidion » Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:02 pm

Thank you, Jason, and others for commenting on this story.

Jason, you wrote:...didn't even say it was the angel or presence of YHWH himself but only an angel.


Not quite only an angel. He said it was an angel who told him the word of Yahweh.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:53 am

LLC, at the time Reheboam was doing well enough, although he was already on the slope downward. As usual, political polygamy was a key opening that door. :roll: Going up against their brothers meant military action -- and they were certainly arming forts on the border to prevent Jeroboam from trying to come take Jerusalem and its neighborhood! But God was going to have them go up against their brothers to some extent later when Josiah rose to be king, so a prophet being sent up to Samaria to warn about that coming would be consistent enough.

Paidion, true my eyes must have done that reverse ellipsis thing where one of two somewhat similar details gets blipped out. :oops:
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:34 am

Jason, according to the story, the whole reason for the split was because Solomon was worshipping other gods and forcing the people into slavery.
1 Kings 11:31-34 "And he said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces (tribes) for thus says the Lord, the God of Israel; 'Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you (but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel) because they have forsaken Me, and worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, an Milcom the god of the people of Ammon, and have not walked in in my ways to do what is right in My eyes and keep My statutes and My judgments, as did his father David."
I suppose if it wasn't David, Rehoboam would have been left with nothing. When Rehoboam came into power, he was instructed by the elders to be a servant to the people, and all would be well. Instead he acted the tyrant as he states in verse 11: "Whereas my father laid a heavy yoke on you, I will add to your yoke; my father chastised you with whips ; but I will chastise you with scourges!"
Jeroboam had no intentions to return to Jerusalem. In fact, he went to the mountains of Ephraim to build a new city. Jeroboam wanted nothing to do with Rehoboam, nor did he want the people to return to Jerusalem because in doing so they might return to Rehoboam. This is why he built the golden calves. From what I understand, Rehoboam was the one who was planning a military attack on Jerobaom and the house of Israel. He was mad because he did not have complete power over all the tribes.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:39 pm

The reason I suggested that the man of God may have gone to Bethel to start trouble is because of his warning. When the man of God told Jeroboam that a child was to be born of the house of David and destroy his altars, I would think that he would have taken this as a threat that was to occur sometime in the near future. It seems odd that a man of God would be sent to warn Jeroboam of something that was to occur some three hundred years in the future. By then, he would be long dead and gone. Why would he care?
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:54 am

I'm beginning to think that maybe this story is out of place. It would make more sense if the man of God was addressing Jeroboam II.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Paidion » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:01 pm

.
Last edited by Paidion on Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Paidion » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:04 pm

Here's a couple of other somewhat similar stories:

35 And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to his fellow at the command of the LORD, “Strike me, please.” But the man refused to strike him.
36 Then he said to him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as you have gone from me, a lion shall strike you down.” And as soon as he had departed from him, a lion met him and struck him down.
37 Then he found another man and said, “Strike me, please.” And the man struck him—struck him and wounded him.
38 So the prophet departed and waited for the king by the way, disguising himself with a bandage over his eyes.
39 And as the king passed, he cried to the king and said, “Your servant went out into the midst of the battle, and behold, a soldier turned and brought a man to me and said, ‘Guard this man; if by any means he is missing, your life shall be for his life, or else you shall pay a talent of silver.’
40 And as your servant was busy here and there, he was gone.” The king of Israel said to him, “So shall your judgment be; you yourself have decided it.”
41 Then he hurried to take the bandage away from his eyes, and the king of Israel recognized him as one of the prophets.
42 And he said to him, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Because you have let go out of your hand the man whom I had devoted to destruction, therefore your life shall be for his life, and your people for his people.’” (1 Kings 20)

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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:12 am

Paidion, Now you've got me going! I can't make heads or tails of anything! :?: :lol: According to 2 Chronicles chapter 13, Rehoboam's son, Abijah, is the one who came up against Jeroboam I and took Bethel as well as some other cities and villages. I was thinking that the man of God would be warning Jeroboam of this attack, rather than one that was to come hundreds of years later. That's why I suggested the story in question seems out of place. We see from 1 Kings 11:35-37 according to the prophet Ahijah, God was giving reign over Israel to Jeroboam because Solomon was worshipping other gods. In chapter 12:22-24, Shemaiah, the man of God warns Rehoboam and the house of Judah, not to go against Jeroboam because the split was God's doing. Yet again in 2 Chronicles, Abijah claims( chapter 13, verse 5) that Jeroboam was the one in rebellion, that he took advantage of a young Rehoboam, and that all of Israel belonged to the house of David. So,wasn't Abijah the one disobeying the Lord's commands not go against his brothers?
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:28 pm

So, this is my last attempt at trying to decipher the story. The man of God represents the message that Jeroboam was given by the prophet Ahijah; that Jeroboam would have ten tribes and be king of Israel only if he followed the ways of the Lord. God gave him rule over these tribes because Solomon was worshipping other gods. However, Jeroboam did not listen. Instead, he turned back to the very same ways from which he came, that of worshipping other gods. I'd say that the lion represents Judah. They go up against Jeroboam but do not completely destroy him. I think the donkey here represents some kind of enlightenment that happened because of the whole ordeal. The only thing I don't get is the prophecy of Josiah when it was Abijah who attacked Jeroboam and took Bethel.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby JasonPratt » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:50 am

Prophecies can be fulfilled multiple times. Abijah is a case of details being fulfilled partially early, and other details being fulfilled later.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:47 pm

There is a proverb that says not to rejoice when your enemy falls. The time where we are most vulnerable to defeat is after a victory. Jesus said, "Watch and Pray for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."

There is another place, where God asked, "Who will go for me?" and one of the sons of God said, "I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouth of his prophets"- I think this was to draw Ahab out to battle.

Whatever the reason for the prophet's lie, the man of God may have been reveling in his victory and not on point, attentive to the voice of the Lord.

I personally think the lesson concerns God, as no respecter of persons, weighing the motives of the heart, and a haughty spirit going before a fall. Saul, when he was small in his own eyes was powerful for God, but when he became careless in executing the word of the Lord, he stumbled and fell.

Samson was the anointed of the Lord, but his arrogance cost him, even tho God used even his defeat to bring victory- showing that we ought never count out the servant of God, even tho he be disgraced, because God might bring the hair back upon his head for a final victory- all to the glory of God.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:48 pm

Eaglesway, what you presented makes sense. I was previously thinking along the same lines myself. One is stated as being a man of God, the other just a prophet. Could this have been a slight of some sort, such as one having more knowledge or wisdom than the other? Both seemed to have been partially right, however both had their own faults as well.

Jason, seeing that history repeats itself, what you suggested may be the case. However, I'm also inclined to think that there may be some mixing up of the stories. A couple of things I found strange in reading a little further (1Kings, chap. 14) is that Jeroboam had a son named Abijah as well. According to 1Kings 15:1-2 Rehoboam's son was named Abijam, who's mother's name was Maachah. According to 2 Chronicles 13:1-2 Rehoboam's son was named Abijah, who's mother's name was Michaiah. Also some of the details of each of the stories of Jeroboam and Rehoboam are different. It says in 2 Chronicles 13:20 " So Jeroboam did not recover strength again in the days of Abijah; and the Lord struck him and he died." I was wondering if there was some relationship between the man of God being killed and Jeroboam being struck down.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:46 pm

Jeroboam and the "man of God and prophet" story have some interesting similarities.

God's intention for Jeroboam was good. Jeroboam was a great man in Solomon's's entourage, and built many things. He received a prophecy that he would receive a throne over Israel "like unto David's throne"- one that would continue into perpetuity. Because Rehoboam offended the people by raising taxes and disregarding their concerns, God tore off israel and gave it to Jeroboam.

But Jeroboam, once he had the throne, became fearful. He said in his heart, "If i let the people go up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord they will go back under Rehoboam. So he set up golden calves at the northern and southern borders of Israel(Dan and Beersheba) and he said to the people, "These are your gods, O Israel" and he built a temple in Samaria and put the altar of the Lord there and also built an image of the god Dagon(a chief god of the Philistines) in the temple.

He threw out the Levites and created his own priesthood. He changed the times and the seasons and replaced the holy days and feasts.

All to protect something God had already promised him, just like Saul trying to kill David as if such a thing could forestall the word of the Lord Samuel had laid upon him for disobeying the command of God concerning Agag and the spoil of the Amalekites.

So jeroboam was used as a watch word for evil in a king thereafter.

The failure to trust the Lord has cost many a servant of the Lord and it seems success makes most vulnerable.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:27 pm

Great thread and while I have not commented on it, I do the feel the need to now. These are my personal beliefs and I don't hope to offend anyone. But, as it occurs, in the O.T. the way to know if someone was false Prophet or a true prophet was if their prophecy came true. This seems a bit to 'convenient' shall we say. For example, Isaiah would have been a false prophet if he had been judged 300 years before Christ and even today, as not all his prophecies have come true (yet) and the fact is - they might not ever. Right? If you throw enough crap on the wall, some of it is sure to stick. All this to say, if something seems morally wrong, it probably is wrong, at least as far as that individual is concerned. No, I am not suggestion moral relativity, but I am suggesting that perhaps the O.T. isn't inspired as many would like to think. I mean, I don't have to read long before part of me says "This was totally inhumane". There are lots of 'atrocious' things done in the O.T. that are supposedly supposed to be in the name of God, both for him and approved by him.

For example: Saul's sons and grandson's...

2nd Samuel 21:6 "let seven men from his sons be given to us, and we will hang them before the LORD in Gibeah of Saul, the chosen of the LORD." And the king said, "I will give them." BTW, these grand children were crucified/impaled. Now, some might suggest these were bad kids... All 7? Seems unlikely. Besides, didn't the somewhere in Deut (I can provide a reference if necessary) it says that sons shall not pay for the sins of their fathers and vice versa? Seems to me, that David did not follow this law as set forth when he present the 7 descendants of Saul to be dealt with in a cruel manner.

Of course, the reasoning behind accepting these verses tends to be "Well, there must be a good reason, the text just doesn't give the details" yet the text gives specific details or somethings that don't seem important... You know? It seems all to convenient to accept a text and pretend there is something we don't know. While that is the truth, there are things we don't know, God can only rightly assume that we will judge matters based on what we do know. Hence, I see no reason to reject things in the Bible that see morally corrupt and evil, no matter if they are attributed to God or not.

FYI - I know very well that I make typos and rarely do I present something in a format where it could be published. I am capable of writing much better, but I don't due to lack of time. Anyhow, just wanted to throw that edit in there, which is why I don't often provided references and paraphase many things. Once of these days I might dedicate some time to really post something a bit more professional, but I do that all day at work. The last thing I want to do is spend 1 hour proofing through a posting and editing, etc... Hope you all understand. Now that most of you care anyway, as I am a nobody. Just a person with his own walk with God who is pretty cynical over what Christianity has become. I may be to blame in that too... Lord knows I am far from where I need to be.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:47 pm

I think it is a simple thing that the scriptures of the OT are inspired but not every act recorded within the histories was of God. When God judges we as men sometimes judge Him back, as if to wipe out a society is impossible to rectify, because life and survival are our highest morality. Looking at it from God's perspective it might be different, considering the depravity of man, who comes up with things that never entered the mind of God, acts of wickedness that he Himself could never have conceived without our help.

It appears that Saul pursued a program of genocide against the Gibeonites, despite an existing covenant between them and Israel that had been in force for some time.

At that point in time the world was a hard place, and man was more limited in compassion, the world having not yet received the age of Messiah Jesus and the leaven of the kingdom of God.

Also i think that you should cite some authority for the whole crucified/impaled thing. I think thats an exageration and they were simply hanged, as it says. also, nothing in those verses actually says God had anything to do with this, it could simply be a record of an interaction between David and the Gibeonites- and we surely know from scripture that not all the acts of the kings of Israel and Judah- including David, were inspired.That the act was recorded in the scriptures doesnt mean the act was inspired by God.

But imo denying the veracity of the OT is a slippery slope, since Jesus and the apostles all quoted from it repeatedly without any reserve ever stated concerning its veracity- and in fact, all stating just the opposite, regarding the words of the prophets and the scriptures.

"Holy men moved by God" I think Peter says.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:36 am

I don't understand why citing an authority as to whether they were crucified, impaled or hung would be crucial to your position. As if slitting someone's throat, drowning them, starving them or just flat out beheading them would make it any better? The fact is, the sons died died for the sins of their father. While you are correct that God doesn't necessarily give his blessing and nowhere in the text is this implied, except for the fact that David was a 'man of God' and 'was a man after God's own heart'. Since Christians typically hold him in high regard, with the exception of his two 'major sins' from which he repented, they assume he was a genuinely good person.

If being righteous or a good man merely means that one follows their own conscience than many people, even people like Hitler can be 'men of God' since they are convinced in their own minds that they are doing the right thing.

As far as the slipping slope - In my opinion, if you believe in the active work of the spirit of God, then this isn't really a slippery slope at all. If God wants any of us to believe an act was inspired or approved by him, then he will reveal it to us in due time. If he can't be trusted to make known to us what we need to know, then can we trust him for anything? As for the argument that Jesus quoted from the OT - I used to share that same idea, but then I realized, quoting sections doesn't mean you support the entire work. We see it all the time where someone reads an author's work and says "I didn't agree with all of it, but that was a brilliant quote" some people even drop the "I didn't agree with all of it" while still believing such. Hence, you have quotes from George MacDonald that people love and cherish without necessarily agreeing with everything he says.

For what it is worth, I thought this was an interesting article. The SDA's have some weird quirks, but I think their exegeses is far greater than your typical evangelical fundy. They tend to mix a bit of logic with interpretation and are typically pretty balanced about their theology. That said, it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, I disagree with them on a great many of things, but I can see where they come from.

http://spectrummagazine.org/article/sabbath-school/2010/11/21/do-two-wrongs-make-right-rizpah%E2%80%99s-story
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:08 am

It is not critical to my position at all. You stated it- perhaps for effect to add weight to your point. It didn't ring true to me so I asked where you got that info.

I believe in the active work of the Holy Spirit. I think His active work was in the scriptures from the beginning really, and it is easier to debunk the spiritual authority of the scriptures than to allow the Holy Spirit to sort it out for you because, at least as far as I can see, if the OT is not inspired then the whole of scripture is not inspired.

I am not a hard liner on inerrancy, but I just think there was something deeper going on than the Hebrews just recording their history in the form of propaganda and legend.

I think the NT is a vastly superior revelation so when we look back at ancient times we have to recognize an inferior paradigm was at work.

In the process of creation, as the Holy Spirit hovers over the waters of the new creation, the separations of the waters and the emergence of dry ground(civilized spiritual humanity) occur as the "let there be light" of God penetrates the chaos and the futility of tohu and bohu man. In my opinion that explains a lot of the conflicts many people have with the OT.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:35 am

I read the article. I really dont want to argue the points of the article, it is not an unreasonable perspective..... but really, the story could be read as the record of a decision David made, and imo is not presented by the scriptures as any more than"'what happened", which doesnt change my essential point. it is too easy to pick and choose the verses you want to believe, the ones you consider legend, the ones you consider unlikely or unjust.

Thats just a fundamental position we disagree upon and we are not likely to come into agreement on it either :)

I believe the "corporate man"(Adam) is a body within which God is operating and he is limited in the "bringing out" by the light that is growing within us. we humans are incredibly violent and manipulative and without compassion, even now, in the light of the gospel. The human race has a long way to go yet and YHWH is bringing us along in the administration suitable to the fulness of times. It is a painful and bloody birth with which the entire creation groans in the pangs of childbirth.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Paidion » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:54 am

Here are two of the laws of Moses, supposedly originating with God:

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her. (Deut 25:11-12)(Deut 21:18-21)


Does it seem to you that God would give such commands?
Moses recorded also that God commanded the Israelites to make war on other nations, and even wipe them out completely.

All of this is contrary to the way our Lord Jesus described his Father. Jesus described the Most High as being kind to ungrateful people and to evil people (Luke 6:35). Do these Mosaic commands sound like kindness to evil people?

Also, according to Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is the exact imprint of the Father's essence. Did Jesus ever command his disciples to kill disobedient children, or anyone else? Moses said that adulteress wives were to be stoned to death, but Jesus saved the woman caught in adultery, by shaming her accusers. Did Jesus ever command his disciples to make war or fight? He said that because his Kingdom was not of this world, He would NOT command his servants to fight. It seems that Jesus' ways of dealing with people demonstrated the love of God, and were always totally different from the way Yahweh conducted Himself according to Moses.

I am not a gnostic, but I think I understand why second-century gnostics thought the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ was the Supreme God, whereas Yawweh was a lesser god who thought he was Supreme. I think the gnostics were mistaken on that point. But it seems to me that Moses had a big job trying to lead those many Israelites, some of whom were causing problems. So he came up with ideas as to how to control them, and then thought that God had planted those ideas in his mind, and thus affirmed that God had given these commands.

In 1650, the laws in Connecticut were based on these Mosaic laws. What follows is the 1650 Capital Laws of Connecticut, listing the crimes that received capital punishment, and quoting the Mosaic Scriptures to justify the Connecticut Laws. What if these laws were incorporated into state laws today? Would you find that acceptable?

Image
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:18 am

Paidion wrote: But it seems to me that Moses had a big job trying to lead those many Israelites, some of whom were causing problems. So he came up with ideas as to how to control them, and then thought that God had planted those ideas in his mind, and thus affirmed that God had given these commands.


If I had read this 10-12 years ago, I would have thought "Wow, what an outrageous and sacrilegious viewpoint. He is going to Hell" ... Now, I totally agree with your comment. The biggest flaw in Christianity today is the refusal to use logic and incorporate it into our theology.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:31 pm

Logic is a funny thing. if I am right it is because I am logical. if you are wrong - it is because you are illogical and vice versa. The smugness with which people assert that their logic exceeds the testimony of the scriptures always entertains me. You dont often have to look too far to find a resolution that is logical within the testimony of the scriptures, for instance.

it is quite possible, and logical, that Saul's sons participated in Saul's genocidal acts against the Gibeonites and God required justice. Murder cannot go unanswered. Certain perversions cannot go unanswered either. The problem with treating our own view point as if it is the logical one, as opposed to the scriptures, is that we dont necessarily have the frame of reference from which to make that judgment call. Because of what the scriptures say about themselves, I tend to search for a logical explanation that does not require me to set my "logic", or accept anyone elses "logic", over them.


Paidon, you're comments about Moses are hilarious, even if they do make a total mockery of the scriptures. I mean, how can anyone read the tone of the scriptures and the attitude with which the things said within them are presented, and come up with a reality such as the one you present, and then later on quote scripture as if it has any authority at all. it is a snake chasing its tale. Your argument about Moses defeats any other argument you make citing scripture as authority. :lol:
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:49 pm

Actually Paidon, understanding free will as you do, I think you might understand that Moses DID come up with some of the law himself, as a steward over the flock of Israel, not because he was inventing control mechanisms, but because the Holy Spirit was working with him in dealing with the unique issues of the time and the conditions of the world at that time. "For the hardness of your hearts Moses gave you divorce but from the beginning it was not so".

i think the poison of the "total predestination of all things" has ruined the true understanding of how God is leading mankind by shepherds and preists from within their own midst out of the primordial stew- and it aint easy LOL. There is no antiseptic path through the mess of blood and death that follows the fall of Adam to0 now that can be explained in any other way- but that is just my logic, which I am sure someone will find illogical, and I mean no offense. We all see our own arguments as the most logical or we wouldnt make them :)

Today we have armies of young men and women killing one another in the streets and parents cannot control them because they are prohibited by laws that "protect" them until they are professional criminals preying upon innocent bystanders, defenseless defenseless victims of robbery and homicide, etc

Pedophiles and abusers of all kinds prey upon innocent children and women because we dont have the nerve, the courage, or the enlightment to execute the judgment they deserve. The statistics are staggering and you often have to dig to find them- But criminals and perverts rack up huge numbers of victims before they are incarcerated and after. while they are on trial and when they are paroled. Its a joke really, the number of innocent lives destroyed by our enlightened ways.

No, the logical path that has been espoused as "mercy" and "enlightenment" has led us into the ultimate quagmire. it is destroying our world. Perhaps this Father you think Jesus describes must at times be harsh in His wisdom to maintain, protect and preserve family and community. The societies that were destroyed by the Israelites at the command of YHWH were cancers in the body of the world, committing atrocities against there own children and treating everyone weaker than themselves as prey.

yea, I think maybe there is a Supreme God who reigns over the lesser God YHWH. He is the product of man's imagination and he stands by spouting platitudes as evil predators get away with murder. :lol:
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Paidion » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:54 pm

Eaglesway wrote:Logic is a funny thing. if I am right it is because I am logical. if you are wrong - it is because you are illogical and vice versa. The smugness with which people assert that their logic exceeds the testimony of the scriptures always entertains me. You dont often have to look too far to find a resolution that is logical within the testimony of the scriptures, for instance.


Unfortunately, people say that some assertion is "logical" as if "logical" were a synonym for "reasonable." In what you have stated above, replace "logical" with "reasonable", and "illogical" with "unreasonable" and I will agree with your second sentence. What makes you think that the people who assert that logic overrides the testimony of the Scriptures are smug? I think I am detecting a bit of anger here on your part.

In any case, I will give you examples of logic. 2+2=4 is a logical statement. No amount of argument can convince a rational person that the sum is 5.
What follows is a logical argument:
Premises:
1. If it is raining outside, John will stay inside until it stops.
2. It is raining outside.

Conclusion:
Therefore, John will stay inside until it stops.

The conclusion logically follows from the premises. IF the premises are true, then the conclusion MUST be true.
If the conclusion is false, then at least one of the premises MUST be false. No amount of argument can convince a rational person that this is not the case.

Paidon, you're comments about Moses are hilarious, even if they do make a total mockery of the scriptures. I mean, how can anyone read the tone of the scriptures and the attitude with which the things said within them are presented, and come up with a reality such as the one you present, and then later on quote scripture as if it has any authority at all. it is a snake chasing its tale. Your argument about Moses defeats any other argument you make citing scripture as authority.


What is hilarious about my comments? Are they hilarious to you just because you disagree with them?
There is nothing inconsistent in my quoting the Bible. I don't quote it as having intrinsic authority, as being without error. Jesus is my authority, and I quote his words as recorded in the Memoirs of Christ (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) as authoritative—not because they are in an infallible Bible, but because they are in a historical record. I may also quote historical records to establish that after Columbus discovered the western hemisphere, he first landed in San Salvador. That doesn't imply that I think those historical records are flawless or infallibly inspired.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:01 am

The scriptures have testimony in them about the nature of the scriptures. As I said before, I am not a hardliner about inerrancy, but saying that Moses was making it up as he went along governing those rowdy hebrews is just too much for me. I find it to be really funny. Its not like you are talking about a peripheral point in the Bible.

My point is that when you look at a shoot coming up out of the ground(OT) you see something different than when you look at a mature fruit bearing tree(NT).

In my view Christians who are debunking the OT because there are things that happened therein with which they are not comfortable are like people looking at the shoot and saying, "Why is there no fruit on you yet".

God is building the new man in stages.

I am anything but angry about it. I just think it is smug- which is like a small form of arrogance.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:02 am

I don't understand the logic of "If one part is false, then the whole thing must be false". Word's don't make truth, they merely reflect it. If a book said 2+2=5 then the book would be wrong for that specific equation. If another page in the book said 3+3=6 then the book would be right for that specific equation. To condemn the whole math book merely because there are some typos or incorrect mathematical equations would be like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Sure, if you find a typo or an incorrect calculation, you should be on watch, lest you find another one. I see why this is no different with the Bible. The Holy Spirit is said to guide us into all truth. But many Christian's have added a restriction to it by adding " by bringing us the Bible only". So the Holy Spirit guides us into truth by bringing us the Bible only. I don't think think that is a proper restriction. There is truth in many ancient documents. There is truth is modern books. Truth is when you do something true and upright to your neighbor. Truth isn't truth because it is in the Bible. It is truth because it is true!

Additionally, Scripture and the Bible are not the same thing. The Bible contains scripture. Think of scripture like math equations. Some can be true, some can be false and if the Holy Spirit is present in our lives, we will find truth not only in the Bible but in other books and life's experiences. The key difference between you and me I suppose is that I am trusting in a living and active God, as opposed to one who dropped a manual that only some people were blessed enough to see. Not only do many people in the world not have access to it, but if they were born blind, they also was 'shut-out' from this divine manual. I wonder how Moses was able to know truth without the Bible, I mean it isn't like God could have told him... Oh wait... That is exactly what I am suggesting. Maybe we are all a bit like Moses where we can hear and talk to God directly.

Also, since you said you are not a hardliner on innerancy, I don't see why you would be upset with Paidion's or my viewpoints on certain things. I mean, you must have hated many of the Christian's in the past for what they did. Martin Luther namely, who rejected the authority of many scriptures. I mean, someone who would do that could hardly be trusted, right? Isn't that your manner of thinking?

That said, I don't want to turn this into a heated debate. So far I have not been upset or unglued over anything that has been said. I'd love to keep it that way and since I don't want to assault your beliefs or make you or others upset, I will close with this: I may very well be incorrect in my beliefs. May God correct me if he finds me in error. I trust God does his best for every man and woman.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:25 am

Well, to start with ... I am not upset with Paidons view and I respect Paidon and have read some great stuff by him. I just disagree with this particular idea pretty strongly. when I say i am not a hardliner on inerrancy, it means I am not like some raving lunatics who have to find an explanation for every little inconsistency or who disegard the faith and opinions of those whose view on the integrity of scripture are not as strict as mine.

But I see the scriptures as a cloth with a few tattered edges and a couple of small holes in it due to the ravages of time. In order to rationalize the law and YHWH's participation in it, or to disregard the miracles and supernatural events of the OT, I think you just have to tear a big ol hole in it.

How one goes from the burning bush to a guy just making it up as he goes along really strongly contradicts the tone and testimony of the scriptures concerning themselves, and the law concerning itself- and imo lowers Moses almost to the level of a charlatan despot.

I am presenting an alternative view to that which I believe is as logical as any- even if it turns out to be incorrect(since we are dealing with theories explaining acts from ancient times). My view hinges on three hypothesises.

1)God has set limits for Himself while He grows man through stewardship.

The law was a tutor and a shadow. The entire revelation under Moses was inferior, there was a reason for that, beyond God just singing "Doh De Doh" through the ages. His hands are in the clay upon the wheel of time, his winnowing fork upon the threshing floor separating the wheat from the chaff. we cannot see all the way into how the one "who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will" has done what he has done, but to me it is clearly progressive, and in the OT you see the law given to govern a civilized nation in the midst of a primitive uncivilized word. A nation formed as a lampstand to the corporate consciousness of man. And even that is in stages as Israel progresses through trial and error through the Judges and the Kings while the prophets continually interpret the heart of the law back to erring Israel as they point to the coming reality of Messiah. For someone who had never seen a summer fruit tree, the dry tree would look very inferior until the leaves began to come out, then the blossoms, then the mature fruit.

2)Man presents logic in refutation of the scriptures that is as inconsistent and limited as the inconsistency man thinks he defies.

For instance, I think it is entirely possible that Saul's sons participated in genocide and God would not let them go unpunished. He is a covenant God. The drought, as God is known to do, brings hidden things to light, and the cause of His disfavor had to be removed- similarly to when Achan hid things from the ban under his tent and Israel sufferred loss until the violation had to be revealed and purged. This is just as logical and likely a possibility and casts the "victims of the imaginary man-made unjust scriptural view of God"" in an entirely different light. Despite whatever their mother's pain- in such a case they had to be judged. I cannot strictly see what (objective independent) logic would lead to one view over the other, but faith in the wisdom of God and a greater respect for the scriptures causes me personally to regard that as the logical view.

3)God understands war, but hates murder, and these can be two different things.

God is working with mankind, and "all the families in heaven and earth" are like waters flowing this way and that. he is the Master of the Seas and he is trying the hearts of men(individually and corporately) within the circumstance of time and chaos(futility- the crucible).

The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.

The only way out of time and chaos is to seek God and commune with Him and His Spirit is moving over the face of the waters. "No man comes to me but the father draws Him". But the scriptures testify of themselves that they are the integral thing within which the Spirit is able to reveal this relationship between God and man. If they are not largely dependable they are a joke, and shouldnt be treated as anything holy, because of what they say about themselves. IMO this would be a falseness to great to ignore/overlook, while at the same time using them to justify arguments and positions that suit my individual persoective.

Sometimes harsh circumstances, brought on by the actions of humanity, become the hammer and the anvil as God shapes His purpose through the "corporate clay of man". The clay when fully shaped, must still go into the kiln.

God has never been "abhorrent" to violence. I think a lot of our moralizing about how God uses death is just our survival instinct enthroned and worshipped intellectually. Violence and death and injustice and pain are tools He is using in some fashion to bring us into an awareness that we are all connected and that "I am my brother's keeper". Like a drunk breaking up on the rocks and finally coming to the end of his wantoness and seeking help, the earth, because of mankind staggers- and God is working in every little bit of it, and the scriptures are the map he has given to go along with the compass of the Spirit.

Men say they abhor violence, then they lay on their couch as the predators of the world consume their prey in the most obvious ways, and yawn, go to sleep, and pretend to wisdom. "For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"- Jesus of Nazareth
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:05 am

Going back to the OP, i think what is revealed in the story of the prophet and the man of God is not so much whether or not the prophet was "true" or "false".

The man of God followed the Spirit and saw the glory of God. The prophet was used to test the man of God, whether by his own falseness or because God led Him to it- doesn't matter, the man of God was tested after his victory.

We all find ourselves in the crucible at times, as God deals with us as sons. To him unto whom much is given, much is required.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:09 pm

I read the Bible mostly as literature. The Jewish people were great story tellers, and Jesus Himself often spoke in parables. Moral stories, poetry, proverbs and such reveal truths of life much better than just plain facts in a history book. Who remembers anything from history class? Yet we all remember great stories passed down through the ages. Not everything in the story has to be literally true for it to be considered true. If you have ever watched the movie Cars, of course cars don't talk but the movie revealed a truth of life. So, in the story that Paidion presented, I figured that there must be something of a hidden truth. However, I can't really put my finger on it.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Paidion » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:29 pm

Eaglesway wrote:As I said before, I am not a hardliner about inerrancy, but saying that Moses was making it up as he went along governing those rowdy hebrews is just too much for me.


I think this is what is called the strawman fallacy—attacking a statement that was never made.
Never have I said that Moses was "making up his laws as he went along." If you care to check my post with an open mind, I think you will find that I said that Moses believed that his thoughts for governing Israel were planted there by God, and thus wrote that God said it.

This is quite different from "making it up" knowingly, and trying to dupe the Hebrews into believing that God said these words to him.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:40 pm

I accept your correction of how I portrayed your comments Paidon, but the effect of them leads to the same result. I was being ironic in expressing the result of what you propose- as I see it. Moses thought he heard from God so he said "God said" is a lot different from "holy men moved of God spoke by the Holy Spirit."

I wasnt saying that Moses was "purposely duping" the Israelites, but if your proposition were true, he nevertheless duped them, representing his own words as God's, or at least representing them as sanctioned by God, when they were'nt. He would still be a charlatan in my opinion, self deceived at least.

Also the comparison, which you kind of disavow, but nevertheless use to communicate, at least in some measure, your estimation of Moses and the law(little YHWH contradicting Supreme Father, the gnostic position) is also a huge diminution of the OT scriptures and the Pentateuch in particular, again- I am only speaking from my point of view.


I see it as straw argument to posit that what you actually said leads to any different logical destination than the one I indicated.

Jesus never represents Moses or the law in any such lesser light. Actually, to the contrary, the law and the prophets and the histories of the OT are represented by Jesus and the apostles in exactly the way i am explaining(imo of course:))- a stage in the reclamation of the creation, perfectly effectual in its time according to its purpose- as a shadow of what was to come and a tutor leading to Christ and the Kingdom of God- teaching the insufficiency of man to fulfill it without Messiah and the Spirit. While the light Moses brought was a fading one, and there is a veil over it still for anyone who reads it outside of Christ without the illumination of the Spirit, the man who stood on holy ground before the burning bush and received the tablets was the epitome of what God was doing in that stage of the "administration suitable to the fulness of times."

I think it is the limits of those primordial times, and the nature of YHWH's bringing man up out of the soup of chaos through stages, that is confusing, not the work God was doing through Moses.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Paidion » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:38 pm

Jesus never represents Moses or the law in any such lesser light.


Have you ever noticed that Jesus never represents the Father as having killed anyone or commanded his people to fight or destroy other nations?
Rather He describes Him as kind both to ungrateful and to evil people, and states that if his hearers do the same they will show themselves to be sons of the Most High (Luke 6:35)

Jesus was Another divine Individual EXACTLY like his Father. He was the exact imprint of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3). He said, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." Yet Jesus never ordered his disciples to kill anyone or to participate in war against an enemy, to punish rebellious children by stoning them to death, or to cut of women's hands for particular offenses, as Moses claimed God did. Why not if He is exactly like the Father?

According to Moses, God presumably told the Israelites to stone to death adulterous people. An adulterous woman was brought to Jesus by the Pharisees who then asked Him, "Moses commanded that such a one be stoned, what do you say?" If Jesus had followed the laws of Moses, He would have said, "The law is clear. She must be stoned," and probably would have cast the first stone Himself. But instead He shamed the Pharisees into going away without another word. Then He told the woman that He didn't condemn her. He simply told her to go on her way and to stop sinning.
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby LLC » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:28 pm

In Deuteronomy 5:1-22, the laws that Moses was originally given were the ten commandments. Verse 22 goes on to say that "These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more." Again, in Deuteronomy 10:12-22,the essence of the law is stated. These are the same as what Jesus spoke of. I would say that over time, man began adding to this. Some of the things added may not have even been from Moses, or they could have been misinterpretations of things that Moses had said. Who knows? For example, Leviticus 11:13 says " And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle,the vulture, the buzzard." I think this has a spiritual meaning to it. However, many foods were banned from being eaten. This may have come from the fact that eating such things was not healthy, but I don't doubt that some food laws came about through misinterpretation. Another example might be circumcision. Did God really require this? As Paidion pointed out about the laws of Connecticut, we see how things can be twisted into something other than what was originally intended. The Constitution and the laws of this country are also a prime example of how all of this occurs. It starts out simple and ends up to be so complex one cannot even move without breaking some law or another and often unknowingly. I don't think anyone can possibly fulfill all of the thousands upon thousands of laws we have on the books today. I believe this is one of the reasons Jesus came to earth, to separate God's laws from man's laws and bring them back to what they originally were in the beginning.

On another note, I see what Eaglesway is saying. I think there do come times when our sins "pile up to heaven". These are judgment times when this law of God must be fulfilled: Deuteronomy 30:17-18 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish." We do have a right to protect ourselves against evilness and to bring to justice those who commit evil acts.Jesus says in Luke 22:36 "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a sack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:46 pm

Paidion wrote:
Jesus never represents Moses or the law in any such lesser light.


Have you ever noticed that Jesus never represents the Father as having killed anyone or commanded his people to fight or destroy other nations?
Rather He describes Him as kind both to ungrateful and to evil people, and states that if his hearers do the same they will show themselves to be sons of the Most High (Luke 6:35)

Jesus was Another divine Individual EXACTLY like his Father. He was the exact imprint of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3). He said, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." Yet Jesus never ordered his disciples to kill anyone or to participate in war against an enemy, to punish rebellious children by stoning them to death, or to cut of women's hands for particular offenses, as Moses claimed God did. Why not if He is exactly like the Father?

According to Moses, God presumably told the Israelites to stone to death adulterous people. An adulterous woman was brought to Jesus by the Pharisees who then asked Him, "Moses commanded that such a one be stoned, what do you say?" If Jesus had followed the laws of Moses, He would have said, "The law is clear. She must be stoned," and probably would have cast the first stone Himself. But instead He shamed the Pharisees into going away without another word. Then He told the woman that He didn't condemn her. He simply told her to go on her way and to stop sinning.


That statement you quote taken out of the context of all I wrote certainly does seem ignorant doesnt it? :) The lesser light I was speaking of was in comparison to your "gnostic position"- diminishing the OT. The Old Covenant is certainly a lesser light than the New.

I clearly see the difference between the law and grace, and between Jesus and Moses. I simply see the nature, origins and validity of the law and the histories differently than you do. As I posted, since the advent of Christ a greater law(the perfect law of liberty,love through the indwelling Christ) has come to the forefront in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The difference between our positions, as I see it, is that you see Moses and the law as "not good", in error. Yet Paul says it was good and of God in its time but now it is dissolved in the body of Jesus Christ. Only by the breaking of that body could the ability to walk in the new creation succeed and the Holy Spirit be poured out into the world. Before that it was a different world. You see an opposition between Christ and Moses. I see Jesus transcending and fulfilling Moses. I see Jesus speaking with Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration- the law the prophets merged into Messiah's gospel.

Of course Jesus opposed the stoning of the adulterous woman...He came to abolish the law and conquer death. Paul calls it the former covenant. he clearly defines it as inferior, but he does not at any point invalidate it as to its purpose for its time in the administration of the fulness of times. Paul says that the old testament saints saw that they were serving us, and that they could not be completed without us, and that they would have loved to have been able to see plainly what we see plainly. They were incomplete, even as we are also, but we are much further along because of the advent.

Where I do agree with you in some small measure is that Moses struck the rock, so he could not enter in. that is the nature of the law. it strikes the rock, instead of just speaking to it. Jesus is the promised land. Moses could see it from afar- but he could not enter, just as the law YHWH gave through him was only a shadow and a schoolmaster preparing for a much greater revelation to come.

i dont think we have any disagreement as to the greater glory of the revelation of God in Christ. We have a serious disagreement about the law and Moses and to what extent he was anointed and equipped by God to deliver the revelation for His time.

Think about it. A two million person camp. Moving through the wilderness through the midst of pagan tribes, hated by every kingdom, without a home, without a central location, following the pillar of fire and smoke. Moses was saved from death, prepared in Pharaoh's house, was the hand of God to release the israelites by signs and wonders. parted the red sea by God's outstretched hand, met YHWH face to face at the burning bush, received the tablets written in fire, and was the meekest man on the face of the earth, yet everyday he met God face to face in the tent of meeting.
The earth opened up and swallowed those who sought to usurp his mantle when he opened the question before God and the great congregation as to whether he was God's chosen deliverer. Miriam was struck with leprosy for getting catty behind his back.Aaron's sons were struck down for offering a careless offering before the Lord.

But then I know a lot of people think that's all hyperbole. I think the I AM is not who some people want Him to be and they are offended at Him, but He Is Who He Is- not some lesser god.

At any rate- we aren't likely to agree on this one. Peace out :)
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Re: God Killed the Deceived but Not the Deceiver

Postby Eaglesway » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:28 pm

LLC wrote:In Deuteronomy 5:1-22, the laws that Moses was originally given were the ten commandments. Verse 22 goes on to say that "These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more." Again, in Deuteronomy 10:12-22,the essence of the law is stated. These are the same as what Jesus spoke of. I would say that over time, man began adding to this. Some of the things added may not have even been from Moses, or they could have been misinterpretations of things that Moses had said. Who knows? For example, Leviticus 11:13 says " And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle,the vulture, the buzzard." I think this has a spiritual meaning to it. However, many foods were banned from being eaten. This may have come from the fact that eating such things was not healthy, but I don't doubt that some food laws came about through misinterpretation. Another example might be circumcision. Did God really require this? As Paidion pointed out about the laws of Connecticut, we see how things can be twisted into something other than what was originally intended. The Constitution and the laws of this country are also a prime example of how all of this occurs. It starts out simple and ends up to be so complex one cannot even move without breaking some law or another and often unknowingly. I don't think anyone can possibly fulfill all of the thousands upon thousands of laws we have on the books today. I believe this is one of the reasons Jesus came to earth, to separate God's laws from man's laws and bring them back to what they originally were in the beginning.

On another note, I see what Eaglesway is saying. I think there do come times when our sins "pile up to heaven". These are judgment times when this law of God must be fulfilled: Deuteronomy 30:17-18 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish." We do have a right to protect ourselves against evilness and to bring to justice those who commit evil acts.Jesus says in Luke 22:36 "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a sack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."



I do think it is possible there are interpolations and mistranslations in the law. I forget the number of traditions and statutes the Pharisees added to it in their practices but it was a large number. As i said before tho, i see the scriptures as perhaps tattered a little around the edges and bearing a few holes due to the ravages of time and the imperfections of men.

i am sure, for instance, that "hell" and "eternal damnation" and "forever" and the many little twists that english "interpreters" added in the guise of translating the New testament are accompanied in like manner in the Old Testament. The Septuagint was translated by Greek Hebrews and who knows where they nudged the translations in order to interpret their pharasaical ideas.

But i definitely dont think the integrity of the cloth is as shredded as Paidon does, and I think the histories are largely true, not legends or cultural mind-speak. But then, I think the Red Sea actually parted, and the first-born of Israel actually died, and frogs fell in a plague upon the land of Egypt- all by the hand of YHWH.
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