Paidion wrote:Yes. I have considered that possibility, Eaglesway. But I rejected it for the other view because God's judgments are not vengeful, but remedial.
Moses and the prophets sometimes taught that God was vengeful, punishing, and instructing the Israelites to destroy their enemies, including babies (but not virgin women, of course.) But Jesus and the writers of the New Testament taught that God corrected evil doers, even as a loving father corrects his children. It is for the benefit of those corrected, not a penalty for wrongdoing.
It is true that the English word "vengeance" occurs 5 times in the New King James Version of the New Testament. In 4 of those times, the word is "ἐκδικησις" (ekdikāsis), a word that means "doing justice to all parties." In the 5th occurence (Jude 1:7), the word is "δικη" (dikā) which simply means "judgment" or "sentence." In Jude 1:7, those given over to whoredom, will suffer the sentence of lasting fire unless or until they repent.
Eaglesway wrote:In that view, that day has still not come, unless one is a full preterist or something like that- …
Paidion wrote:Why did Jesus stop in the middle of the sentence?
If He did it intentionally, what was His purpose? Could it be that He had no intention of proclaiming vengeance in any form?
Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Right there with you dandelionDandelion wrote:My inclination is to see love, as the overriding attribute, of God.
With you there Davo It kind of reminds me of the never-ending debate between calvinism and arminianism. Divine love vs. Divine Will (or justice I suppose).davo wrote:It is this paralysis of analysis that developing Christendom post parousia has tied itself up in knots of “is it love, or is it justice”, “is it freewill or is it determinism” yada yada yada fill in the blanks ad nauseam. We don’t have to work at keeping God happy… He loves his world!
Valiantwarrior wrote:Hey guys, also, between The Inescapable Love of God (Talbott) and The Evangelical Universalist (Parry/G. McDonald), which one would you recommend reading first? I have yet to read either and was wondering which to start with.
Bob Wilson wrote:Both books are a tour-de-force! If you want the most focus on the Bible and its' trajectory, I'd start with Parry. If you prefer to start with more focus on rigorously logical philosophy, I'd start with Talbott. But both come at it addressing both approaches. You can't go wrong.
davo wrote:Lol… you’ll find the pain actually goes away when you stop beating your head against that wall Jason.
davo wrote:It is this paralysis of analysis that developing Christendom post parousia has tied itself up in knots of “is it love, or is it justice”, “is it freewill or is it determinism” yada yada yada fill in the blanks ad nauseam. We don’t have to work at keeping God happy… He loves his world!
Origen wrote:The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who once were enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached... —De Principiis III.vi.6
JasonPratt wrote:Either it was complete on the cross in some way that its completion can be worked out and realized later, or it was not complete on the cross.
JasonPratt wrote:We don't work to earn God saving us from our sins, and we don't work to earn God's love for this world,…
JasonPratt wrote:…but if God was perfectly satisfied with the Passion in the sense that you're requiring, He wouldn't have continued with zorching Jerusalem.
JasonPratt wrote:If the fall of Jerusalem helps finish what was finished on the cross, other things can, too, in principle.
JasonPratt wrote:But we aren't all essentially sinless now and only needing to endlessly learn to live with each other better.
Where is this historically obvious "Christs Coming of 70 AD"? I am completely in the dark about it.
Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Mt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Joel 2:1-5, 11 Blow the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand: a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generations. A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them. Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; and like swift steeds, so they run. With a noise like chariots over mountaintops they leap, like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble, like a strong people set in battle array. … The LORD gives voice before His army, for His camp is very great; for strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; who can endure it?
Isa 19:1 The burden against Egypt. Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; the idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.
Ezek 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near; it will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.
Zeph 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of devastation and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,… (read the whole chapter)
Mt 16:28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Eaglesway wrote:The old covenant was over the instant Jesus was raised from the dead, it was over when the Holy Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem and new creatures in Christ Jesus began to come forth. The new covenant began immediately,…
Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
2Cor 3:11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
Gal 4:21-31 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written:
“Rejoice, O barren, you who do not bear! break forth and shout, you who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children than she who has a husband.” Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
Heb 9:8 …the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
Eaglesway wrote:70 AD was just the burial of that which had already been anulled, and altho it fulfilled that which had been written in terms of the the removal of the former house, it did not fulfill what is written about the consummation of the latter house-
“the consummation of the latter house-” I’d be interested in what texts you propose show an end and consummation of the latter house?? As I understand there is no “eschaton” relative to the new covenant… biblical eschatology is all about “the end” of the old covenant age, i.e., there is no end of the new covenant age.
Eaglesway wrote:None of these interpretaions are historically obvious. I am just presenting my view of the scriptures.
Eaglesway wrote:Two great universalist portions lending weight to a new covenant eschaton are in Ephesians
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
DaveB wrote:I'm following this with great interest, I hope the thread goes on a good bit longer.
Q :What is the origin of the expression ‘I’ll be your Huckleberry’? What exactly does it mean?
A : What it means is easy enough. To be one’s huckleberry — usually as the phrase I’m your huckleberry — is to be just the right person for a given job, or a willing executor of some commission. Where it comes from needs a bit more explaining.
(for that interesting explanation, see: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-huc1.htm)
DaveB wrote:That huckle almost lost his berries
Eaglesway wrote:When the fulness of time had come God sent forth His Son....
Yes, the fulness of time in relation to the sending forth of the Son had come, so He was sent forth.
Eaglesway wrote:When he comes forth at the end of this age, the "epiphanea, parousia, apokalypsis" will be completed for this age but there will still be ages to come in the dispensation of the fulness(pleroma) of times, until the "manifestation" of the restoration of all things is complete.
Eaglesway wrote:Hoping for what we do not see is the very meaning of "eshcaton"(imo)…
Prov 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when the desire comes, it is a tree of life.
Eaglesway wrote:God will become all in all, he has not yet, but the work is done in Chrst- I think on that we agree-
Valiantwarrior wrote:The line of this topic Thank you all
[Spiritual death's] the ‘death’ Adam died “the day” he ate… you will recall Adam lived “physically” a tad longer than “for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Paidion wrote:If they died only a spiritual death, why did God shut them out of the Garden, lest they return and eat from the Tree of Life and live forever?
Paidion wrote:Wouldn't God want them to live forever spiritually? After all, didn't Jesus come that people might have (spiritual) life and have it more abundantly?
Paidion wrote:I think the meaning is, "In the day you eat of it, the death process will surely begin in you."
1Kgs 2:37 For it shall be, on the day you go out and cross the Brook Kidron, know for certain you shall surely die; your blood shall be on your own head.”
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