Judaism and the Mystical Christ

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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby Eaglesway » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:56 am

randylkemp wrote:
fatherlearningtolove wrote:Listen - my problem here is that internet critics are some of the most demanding and lazy people out there. I put so much work into my writing already, and have gotten nothing back from it. Not a dime. Occasionally I get a compliment, but more often I get people who want to argue. I'm so, so tired of arguing. And if I smell a heresy hunt, I'm not going to even try to lure you in to read my work - you're not worth the time, if you're a heresy hunter. That's a headache I don't need in my life - and I know because I've had too many of them already. I think I've given plenty in this thread - don't like it, don't read. Or if it makes you curious, go read.

No, I won't read it. And that would go for many folks, if you don't tell them where you are coming from. And it all depends on what you mean by heresy and who's on the other side. For Christians embracing exclusivism and traditional hell teachings,folks here would be embracing heresy - by embracing universalism. As far as arguments go, I usually refrain - unless someone attacks me first. It's the martial arts philosophy of aikido and jujitsu. And I can guarantee that you won't be presenting any position here, that I haven't already encountered in academia or at the Theosophical Society.


I think I could have a civilized conversation with anyone, about anything, and there are no heresy hunters here that I know of. I am not speaking for Randy, but in my original question, I just wanted to know if you saw the other three religions(kaballah,budhism,hinduism) as equal paths, and if you saw Jesus as Messiah, or as just one of several avatars.

I have read enough of your blog to know you have a lot of knowledge and some insight- but after reading 6 sections I could not tell where you stand on those things. I have no desire to "straighten anybody out", but since you posted your material here to read, I think it was fair to ask.

I hate to assume -but since you are a bit dodgy about simple answers I am going to assume you're teaching comes out of the wheelhouse of the book you linked to, "Parallel Sayings"- and thats all right, I was just trying to get to the heart of your implications, which are definitely not that clear in your blog. I think you are straddling as long as possible before you come out and tell Christians you think the scriptures are largely inaccurate myths and the fundamentals of what we would call Christian faith(Virgin birth, bodily resurrection of Jesus, his Messiahship) are fables intended to teach other, more universal truths.
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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby fatherlearningtolove » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:02 am

randylkemp wrote:And the best way to prove you are right

Here's where you're wrong - you can't prove you're right to anyone but yourself. I am comfortable with myself - I just wish other people would stop pushing me to be different. So, when I feel like I'm being pushed, I withdraw. That's what I started to feel here, and that's what I did, and now I feel like you're both pushing me to feel bad about that. And I refuse to do this. I don't owe you anything, and will not be made to feel like I do.

Your questions, to me, show a lack of nuance. You ask "either/or" questions, where I think that there is more than 2 options. So I try to play at why there might be more than two options. And now you're accusing me of being evasive. I wonder if anyone ever accused Jesus of such a thing, for telling stories and asking questions instead of clearly defining exactly what he had to say?
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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:25 am

fatherlearningtolove wrote:
randylkemp wrote:And the best way to prove you are right

Here's where you're wrong - you can't prove you're right to anyone but yourself. I am comfortable with myself - I just wish other people would stop pushing me to be different. So, when I feel like I'm being pushed, I withdraw. That's what I started to feel here, and that's what I did, and now I feel like you're both pushing me to feel bad about that. And I refuse to do this. I don't owe you anything, and will not be made to feel like I do.

Your questions, to me, show a lack of nuance. You ask "either/or" questions, where I think that there is more than 2 options. So I try to play at why there might be more than two options. And now you're accusing me of being evasive. I wonder if anyone ever accused Jesus of such a thing, for telling stories and asking questions instead of clearly defining exactly what he had to say?


Actually, Socrates in philosophy did the same thing. But I am sure the folks who hung around Jesus and Socrates, probably knew where they were coming from "in general - most of the time". What you are asking is for folks to take a journey through Middle Earth - without a roadmap.
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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby fatherlearningtolove » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:29 am

Randy - I have done my best to provide a roadmap. I have done so in a blog that I have spent countless hours on. If you are unwilling to click a link to such a blog, but are willing to spend hours accusing me of being unwilling to provide a roadmap, that is your problem, not mine. All this time spent trying to manipulatively make me feel guilty and trying to force me into a situation where I will have to greatly summarize something I've spent a lot of time carefully and meticulously laying out could be time that you are spending reading what I have done.

You and Eaglesway have made me feel like I am not in a safe place to say what I really think. And you're not helping this situation by continuing down the path you're on.
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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:21 am

fatherlearningtolove wrote:Randy - I have done my best to provide a roadmap. I have done so in a blog that I have spent countless hours on. If you are unwilling to click a link to such a blog, but are willing to spend hours accusing me of being unwilling to provide a roadmap, that is your problem, not mine. All this time spent trying to manipulatively make me feel guilty and trying to force me into a situation where I will have to greatly summarize something I've spent a lot of time carefully and meticulously laying out could be time that you are spending reading what I have done.

You and Eaglesway have made me feel like I am not in a safe place to say what I really think. And you're not helping this situation by continuing down the path you're on.

That's the problem. I don't know what you think. And it might take me hours reading your blog - to figure it out. That's assuming you are straightforward in the blog, letting us know what you really think. Else, I might as well go reading some established controversial figure - like Jiddu Krishnamurti. I don't know about Eagles Way or others - I can't speak for them. But let me leave it this way for me. If you ever get a publisher or self-publish and the book is available on Amazon, I'll read what the book description and the author bio says. And I'll read through all the reviews. If I like what I read; there are enough overall favorable ratings and reviews - I'll order a copy. Or see if my local public library, can obtain me a copy.
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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby fatherlearningtolove » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:46 am

randylkemp wrote:And it might take me hours reading your blog - to figure it out.

However many hours it takes you to read, I can guarantee it took at least twice as many hours to write - at least.

randylkemp wrote:That's assuming you are straightforward in the blog, letting us know what you really think.

I am pretty straightforward about my views. Sometimes, however, I'm not quite sure what they are. Sometimes I feel like I've glimpsed truth that I have no way of putting into words. And sometimes, I feel that in order to understand a conclusion I've come to, I've got to lay out the road I took to get there, and this takes longer than simply stating "this is my opinion." So you might not get a direct answer to a question you'd want answered, but you will get direct statements. Demanding that I simply answer your questions will not do - they are your questions, not mine.

Now really, look here: I have given you all I'm willing to give you on this forum at this time. If you'd like to read my blog and then ask questions about what you've read, I will try to answer. But in the meantime, I am done. I am serious about this - if the next post is along the lines of the last few, I will simply not answer.
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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:52 am

fatherlearningtolove wrote:
randylkemp wrote:And it might take me hours reading your blog - to figure it out.

However many hours it takes you to read, I can guarantee it took at least twice as many hours to write - at least.

randylkemp wrote:That's assuming you are straightforward in the blog, letting us know what you really think.

I am pretty straightforward about my views. Sometimes, however, I'm not quite sure what they are. Sometimes I feel like I've glimpsed truth that I have no way of putting into words. And sometimes, I feel that in order to understand a conclusion I've come to, I've got to lay out the road I took to get there, and this takes longer than simply stating "this is my opinion." So you might not get a direct answer to a question you'd want answered, but you will get direct statements. Demanding that I simply answer your questions will not do - they are your questions, not mine.

Now really, look here: I have given you all I'm willing to give you on this forum at this time. If you'd like to read my blog and then ask questions about what you've read, I will try to answer. But in the meantime, I am done. I am serious about this - if the next post is along the lines of the last few, I will simply not answer.

That's fine. I gave you my final, reasonable proposition also. Get it published and available on Amazon, along with enough reviewers and raters. My friends have done it. If you read through the thread here, I gave you 3 examples of spiritual friends, who have done this. And they are NOT established and great authors, rich people or folks with extensive publishing connections. Really, now. If they can do it and you have something worthwhile to share - so can you!

And for these examples of spiritual writings on Amazon, look at:


First you need to be an expert in your field:



And you might get a publisher and/or agent, who might negotiate a contract with you:



And you can spread the word about the book



And you can educate the readers on all the new technology.

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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby Eaglesway » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:19 pm

Really, I have no intention beyond discussion. I dont get the thing of not feeling "safe" to say what you think but- really, its ok. I just wanted to know where you were at- not to condemn you for it- even th I may not agree with your position, its just a discission to me, but I find it is way too easy to jump too conclusions after a few words from someone. Even if someone says, "Buddha is the real Jesus", I'm not gonna freak out and get all defensive or anything. Its not like that. I just wanted to know where you were cming from.
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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:13 am

Eaglesway wrote:Really, I have no intention beyond discussion. I don't get the thing of not feeling "safe" to say what you think but- really, its ok. I just wanted to know where you were at- not to condemn you for it- even though I may not agree with your position, its just a discussion to me, but I find it is way too easy to jump too conclusions after a few words from someone. Even if someone says, "Buddha is the real Jesus", I'm not gonna freak out and get all defensive or anything. Its not like that. I just wanted to know where you were coming from.

Same, here, Eagles Way. Really, now.

This is NOT the Southern Baptist Church forum.



This is NOT the Southern Baptist Convention forum.



And we are protected here from rebukes - by the forum rules. I was protected when someone claiming to be a prophet, who didn't like my position on other religions - even through it is consistent with the Roman Catholic Church position. For them, all religions were created by demons. This was someone who took positions like "God created evil", even when mainline churches, Christian philosophers and theologians would disagree. And here are the forum rules. And here's what the admin Jason, said in the particular situation I brought up:

In other words, nobody may rebuke or condemn others in this forum, apart from rebukes required while moderating the rules and policies of the forum. Likewise, biblical rebukes and condemnations appropriate within the context of a church are not allowed in this forum, apart from rebukes required while moderating the rules and policies of the forum. This forum focuses more along the lines of an academic discussion group instead of a church that enforces biblical doctrines."

But you know what. I have friends who are Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus. Muslims view Christ as a prophet, Hindus as an avatar or great saint, and Buddhists as a bodhisattva (enlightened being). And Theosophists usually advocate some form of Gnosticism or Esotericism. And years back, when I was out of work, I spent time with the free Mormon Job Search program - open to Mormons and non Mormons alike. They never tried to convert me and they have a very different version of Christianity. Is Mormonism Christian? There's a recent article on Patheos entitled Is Mormonism Christian? (Long But Everyone Interested in Mormonism Should Read This), by a Protestant evangelical scholar. One thing he says is this:

"Years ago I read several books about Mormonism by Christian anti-cult apologists, but I have found much of what they said to be unreliable—not so much because it was blatantly false as that it lacked evidence of first-hand acquaintance with Mormon scholarship and, in my view, put the worst “spin” possible on Mormon beliefs—blowing some out of proportion."

Now I'm someone who is an Christian inclusivist. Someone who sides with the Roman Catholic Church and Protestant theologians on that, as well as the visions of Catholic mystic Tiffany Snow. I'm more concerned that people are following some form of philosophical and theological ethics, consistent with the golden rule.

So is our poster really holding a viewpoint that's radically different from that of a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Mormon or Theosophist? I sincerely doubt it. If I was the poster and I was afraid of being attacked on my position, here's what I would do. Pay close attention here! Did you ever see the Catholic priest, who was a detective (not the British Father Brown - but the American version, with the street smart nun)? One time the villain confesses his crime to the priest. Hence, the priest can't say anything to the police, as it's under the seal of confession. Similarly, you go to introductions and state your theological and philosophical viewpoints. It says there:
Members may not challenge or rebuke beliefs expressed here but may ask clarifying questions.

This way, you satisfy what Eagles Way and I are looking for. And unless you state a position outside the introductions area, you are protected from even academic style disagreements. I have given him a way out that is foolproof.

But if our poster wants to eventually get published and become available on Amazon, etc., they need to have a book jacket and summary, that tells readers what they are about and where they are coming from. There's really no way around it.
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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:24 pm

If our poster won't tell you what he is about - even in the safety net of introductions - then I will. If you go to his concluding chapter at Judaism and the Mystical Christ, Ch. 11: Concluding Thoughts for "Book I", it says this:

The mystical view of the Unity of God - where we are all emanations of God - may sound like nonsense, and it may sound like heresy. The history of the church has certainly had its fair share of mystics who were accused of heresy for their views.


Reminds me of this guy talking about game theory:



And the IS.GD URL shortener for that site says this:

Why am I seeing this page? We currently force a preview page for certain legitimate sites that we see frequently abused in spam or phishing campaigns. We hope this will help users think twice about where the link goes and not fall victim to any such scams!


Here's the problem and where he really needs to define and tight up things. You see, emanations of God has many meanings:

    We have the Eastern Orthodox viewpoint, at Emanation (Eastern Orthodox Christianity). The writer could be a traditional Eastern Orthodox tradition. The author could talk at any Eastern Orthodox Church.

      We have another one at Emanationism, where it says this:
      Emanationism is a common teaching found in occult, esoteric and metaphysical writings.
      . So the writer could well be a Theosophist and give a talk at the Theosophical Society national headquarters in Wheaton, Illinois

      There is also a view where everything emanates from Brahma. So the writer could be an Orthodox Hindu.. The author could give a talk at any Hindu temple.


      Or I could interpret this in the context of the religion of Bahaism, where emanations are the manifestations of God - his divine representations.. The author could join Bahai informal gatherings or talk at the Bahai Temple in Wilmette, Illinois.


But he can't be ALL these things.
If this chapter was part of something being published by Quest Books - the publishing arm of the Theosophical Society - it would be sent back to the author, to define Emanationism and expand upon it.
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Re: Judaism and the Mystical Christ

Postby Eaglesway » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:04 pm

The issue for me is simply whether or not Jesus is the only begotten Son of God or not. If He is just another avatar, then He is not Messiah. While I do not judge anyone, we all come through different paths to bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father, I just do not believe that is within any parameter of what His body is, His tabernacle of men. "I am the door to the sheepfold". "No man comes to the Father but by me."

I SO get all the alternate gnostic and mystic interpretations that integrate biblical scripture with pluralism, because that is what I came out of by a revelation of Christ crucified, who called me to be His disciple. Since jesus knows everyone, and loves everyone- I may still get upset at Christians who frighten peole with lies about the divine nature, but I never have a problem with someone who is Budhist or Hindu- I just dont get involved in those kind of debates- but share whatever I may if I even feel led to do so.

I also understand why contemporary Chrstianity s distaseful to many, not because of Christ- but because of Christians and hardline theologies. but if we are writing to Christians as a Christian representing a view that invalidates the scriptures and makes Jesus equal to (for instance) Krishna or Buddha- I dont want to debate it, but I do want the person to come on out and say it so the conversation is open and honest.

I don't have a problem being friends or at least collegial and friendly with anyone of any faith. If asked i give account for what I believe. But in a discussion forum, I think it is effective to be upfront for the purpose of discussion, not for the purpose of judging. I can't really respond intelligently until I know where a person is coming from, especially if the person asks for thoughts, input- which is the reason I responded.
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