The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Sin, free will, and the fall of man?

The matter of how people can be so easily taken in by evil has become a disturbing and frustrating question. In the popular Fundamentalist view, Adam sinned, therefore causing all his descendant’s to inherit a totally depraved nature, leading eventually to Eternal Damnation at death. Then the teaching goes in many circles is that even though Jesus died to save us from sin, many and even most will not ever see salvation, because the sin they inherited made them refuse the path of righteousness, or belief.

To me, this seems very fatalistic, to be sold over to damnation over the sin of another. And for years, I have always saw this doctrine as stupid and irrational. Sure, I could easily believe that we have predisposition to sin, as I know that we often times make bad decisions, and that there are some people who truly are hardened sinners, who chose it and therefore will take a long time to repent. With what I am seeing today, I am beginning to wonder about just how powerful Original Sin is. People can be so easily manipulated by evil, and even more disturbing to be desensitized by it and justifying it. Like the Milgram Studies where people in authority could easily get people to do horrible things. Whats more disturbing is how the environment can have so much power over how one thinks in terms of goodness. Since it seems like in every period of time and culture, there are things considered good and bad. Like in the 19th century, having slaves was considered completely acceptable. Where today, such a thing is seen as evil. Or how in the Middle Ages, burning Heretics was considered just penalty, where today, it would be abhorrent.

What really got me concerned about this whole thing was how our Corporate system, where people can find a way to justify and place a corrupt system on a pedestal. Considering how this economic system place profit above all other things, and exploits people, the environment and all other forms of life to get what they want. Yet people seem to defend this system to the death, and fall into a very judgmental culture that makes wealth a sign of goodness, and poverty a sign of evil. Like how people can think that 1% is entitled to own half the wealth, all the while people are barely able to get by. Then, we have these systems that just exploit workers like they are some machine to be used, and then being so judgmental towards those who protest the system as just being lazy. And we have people easily manipulated with dumb phrases like “Thats why its called work”. Whats worse is that we have called this exploitation a “Work ethic”. I just have the hardest time understanding how anyone can glorify such an exploitative system.

But this is not the first time people have been easily manipulated to think a certain way. Like all those Islamic Fundamentalists who believe committing acts of Terrorism is holy. Or Christian Fundamentalists who spread so much hate towards homosexuals. Or the Hindu Caste System, Human Sacrifice, Genital Mutilation, or Holy wars can be considered holy acts.

I just wonder how people can be so psychologically manipulated to believe and glorify such horrible things? I can understand if someone thought a certain way purely out of ignorance, or behaved a certain way(Like the people forced to obey evil Nazi commands) out of fear.

Is there something I am missing? I know there are many psychological theories about the subconscious, and many Spiritual leaders do not consider the Mind to be the essence of the person. Like I think Karl Rahner stated that a truly free person paradoxically has no choice but to choose Christ.

Since I know in the Eastern churches, they see Humans as essentially good, where in the Reformed see humanity as essentially evil. Now both believe in free will. Which has me wondering a lot about how if people have free will, are they so easily manipulated?

This has even had me wondering about Salvation. How can someone be damned over something they did not choose? Whether Eternally or Temporarily? Or do we often look at Judgment, or purgation as a kind of negative or penal way? Since it seems like we often look at suffering as punishment for being evil, and fortune as a reward for being good.

So this has me wondering if there is more to Free will than some mental choice to think up. Like just one day, I decided to follow Jesus without any cause.

This has even had me wondering about Salvation. How can someone be damned over something they did not choose? Whether Eternally or Temporarily? Or do we often look at Judgment, or purgation as a kind of negative or penal way? Since it seems like we often look at suffering as punishment for being evil, and fortune as a reward for being good.

So this has me wondering if there is more to Free will than some mental choice to think up. Like just one day, I decided to follow Jesus without any cause.

Tempting as it is to respond to your political comments i have to bite my tongue but on the biblical comments the bible says we are judged by our works. So i think judgment is a process that is meant to sanctify us not primarily a punishment process. THe definitions for the greek words used for judgment suggest this IMO.
According to Jesus we should expect persecution if we follow him and also suffering seems to be a theme in this life not necessarily tied to being good or bad.
Clearly all of us have good and evil in us and we battle to do right, the contrast in this life is how we learn. IMHO Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because it was necessary that we learn good and evil. It was never some unfortunate accident that Adam and Eve stumbled into.

It seems like even within Universalism, there is still the tendency to see divine judgment as a kind of stigmatization. Considering that earthly judgments are more stigmatizing. Plus I have found that its easy to fall into a strictly restorationist view of seeing suffering as a penalty for bad behavior, and that the current state of affairs was a massive cosmic accident just trying to trudge through till Christ comes again and takes things back to how they were, rather than seeing history in a progressive sense. Which if I am correct is closer to a platonic view of the perfect losing perfection, and working back towards perfection. This maybe a Hindu view also, at least according to one sect.

But if I am correct about the Biblical traditional understanding is that History and mankind started in imperfection, and the fall was just an imperfect act of sin. Something like in the Easter Saturday Exultet saying “O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam that gained for us so great a redeemer”.