The Evangelical Universalist Forum

On hell and cognitive dissonance

In this new post I argued that conservative Evangelicals believing in eternal torment are utterly unable to live consistently unless they become moral monsters such as Fred Phelp and his underlings.

Do you believe this is the case or am I exagerating?

I think you’re right Lotharson, the key word being ‘consistently’. Most Calv friends of mine hide behind ‘sovereignty’ and repeat it like a mantra - but sovereignty is not a moral thing, it’s a power thing (for which we should be grateful, since the Power is the power of Love), and the arguments against Calvinism are all moral. (As well as scriptural IMO).

I think you nailed it my friend.

It would be interesting for me to have your testimonies (or the testimonies of friends) if you or they previously held to eternal conscious torment.

Hey Lotharson,

I’ve let it go many times before. Here recently I just forced myself to believe it because I was looking for a place to fit in. I was also thinking of going Catholic partly because the 83 year old man that I take care of is Catholic. Believing in eternal suffering is a requirement to becoming Catholic. I don’t care anymore. I just let it go. It doesn’t fit well with me. It’s not what I’m about. When you let it go it’s like a big weight is lifted off your shoulders. I’m more of a free spirit. I like to do things from my heart. For me it’s not about “obey me or I will beat you”. That’s not who I am.

The ego makes one fear, demanding punishment. The belief that punishment is correction is clearly insane. Every mistake must be a call for love. For Christ has no ego.

I wrote this all out quite a while back, mostly to keep from having to write it again and again. :laughing: If you’re interested, Lotharson, my personal story about UR starts here: A Personal Odyssey There are five posts. (I usually opt for multiple rather than long posts.) You can get to the subsequent ones by the link at the bottom right of each post. There’s one unrelated post interspersed (on worship), but just click through that one unless you’re interested and you’ll find the rest of the Odyssey posts.

If you want to comment, be sure to enter your URL on the form. That way people will be able to get to your blog by clicking your name. :slight_smile:

Lotharson,

It’s important to understand the historical reality behind this idea of “corrective punishment.” Augustine advocated beating people, even killing them in the name of “corrective punishment.” He referred to this as “medicinal” punishment which was done “out of love.” That logic lead the way to the Inquisition and the Catholic and Protestant practice of torturing people in horrific ways as well as burning them at the stake, again as a way to “purge” their souls. This is the very real results of people believing in the truth of “corrective punishment.”

One can still have a basic belief in Christ who is love and compassion even if He isn’t responsible for the creation of the physical realm. He would then also not be responsible for the intense and unexplained suffering that occurs because of natural disasters in the universe. Why do these things happen on this view? Things happen and sometimes they hurt. Where did the physical universe come from on this view? From what we know of quantum physics the universe could have quantum tunneled into existence from a previous universe. Where did that universe come from? Quantum physics would say that from the perspective of that previous universe it quantum tunneled into existence from ours. No need to invoke Christ as the explanation.

Mike: I think that worshiping a god having predetermined every of our sins and going to eternally torture most of mankind necessarily leads to countless atrocities.

Consistent Calvinists are worshiping an evil demon they call God.
When they defend with passion and joy the doctrine of eternal torment, they sound like Nazi SS to my ears.

Lotharson,

I agree. It’s crazy. I don’t hold to the whole Bible as inspired anymore. The idea of this discipline of the Father is crazy.

The Greek word here for scourge is mastigoō and it means whip, flay, scourge. Scourging means “to flay or skin” meaning to whip so as to draw blood. Here’s is how the word is used in the NT:

Pilate did not “have harsh words with Jesus as a loving father” he had him beaten bloody. That was “discipline” as practiced in Rome at the time. It was also common practice in the synagogue:

The reality is, monstrous, bloody, beating was common practice then. It was likewise common for children to be whipped bloody at the time too. And according to Hebrews God scourges those He loves. The writer of Hebrews didn’t know any better.

Lotharson,

Hitler praised Martin Luther:

It is well known that Luther had a huge influence on the religious views of Germany. He was not only hateful against the Jews but developed a doctrine of God’s total sovereignty. This has been put forth by reformers that God has control even over evil. He brings about a greater good by causing (directly or indirectly) all things. Is this not what Hitler was doing? He was trying to build a superior humanity by doing experiments and such on the Jewish people. He was trying to bring about a greater good by committing these acts thereby imitating the reformed God as he ruled over people. As Hitler has stated in Mein Kampf:

I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

The belts of the Nazi army read - God is with us.

The Sovereign God of the Reformation has the profile of Adolf Hitler.

You might like my post about Martin Luther:
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/on-luther-hitler-and-religious-confusion/

Cheers.