The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is God's Love Conditional? John 14,15

Many passages seem to indicate that God’s love is unconditional

“For God so loved the world…” John 3:16,
“But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” Rom 5:8 etc.

I have just been looking at John 14 and 15 for a bible study I am leading tomorrow night and came across statements from Jesus like these

"He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him… Jn 14:21
"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him… Jn 14:23
"If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love… Jn 15:10
"The Father Himself loves you because you have loved me… Jn 16:27

I would not want to speak like this to my own children because it sounds like conditional love. Any thoughts?
Thanks.

I have entries on this scheduled for the Exegetical Commentary, but the short answer is that this is addressed to the disciples to encourage them to stay the course despite the hardships coming.

I would also argue that it’s meant to be taken in context of the mysterious “new commandment” to “love one another”, which wouldn’t seem to be a new commandment at all but common sense so common that (as Jesus says on the Sermon on the Mount) even pagans and traitors and prostitutes do that (as a way of shaming His audience into doing better than that).

But that new commandment comes after Judas’ departure to go betray Jesus – which Jesus is carefully preparing them for learning in other portions of the Final Discourse, too.

Anyway, regardless of whether Jesus is actually telling the disciples that they can only stay Christian if they’re willing to love Judas, too, despite his coming betrayal (which by the way would fit 1 John’s exhortation that whoever says he loves God but hates his brother is a liar and God is not in him), He’s certainly giving them encouragements not to incur God’s wrath by abandoning their position. That doesn’t have anything to do with God loving or not loving people to start with, it’s a relative question of whether God will keep supporting them.

(Unless of course we posit that GosJohn offers completely contradictory testimony about God’s love for sinners; but that would be a position against accepting GosJohn for religious purposes at all, even if we still accepted it as having significant historical accuracy.)

Jason, I wonder whether there is an aspect that is new to the new commandment - the "as I have loved you " part? Just before he gave this new commandment John comments that “He now showed them the full extent of His love” Jn 13:1 Many people agree that we should love one another, but to do this “as Christ loves us” - thats really raising the bar.

As I mentioned above, our readings for tonight’s bible study are in John’s gospel. But our OT reading includes 1 Chron 17:13 where God, speaking to David, says

So this seems to be another passage where God’s love seems to be spoken of as conditional and can fail. :frowning: :open_mouth: :confused:

Just thinking aloud……If we are in rebellion against God, could there be a sense in which we are under His wrath, not remaining in His love, not experiencing His love, not walking in his love, and so in a sense separated from His love? Could there also be another sense in which He still loves us intensely, desiring our repentance, seeking after us as His lost sheep, and gave His Son for our salvation? Could “love” be used in different ways in different contexts - in one sense conditional and in another sense unconditional??? Thoughts?

“Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated”; but we know God loved Esau, too, or Isaac wouldn’t have prophecied Esau to be blessed in Jacob.

God’s acceptance and rejection are conditional in relation to our current circumstances, and this gets expressed as “love” and “hate” a lot in the Bible. Are we really supposed to hate our mother and father in following Jesus, and so break the only one of the 10 commandments with a promise?! – certainly not! But if it comes down to the question of rejecting them in some limited way compared to following God, we have to put God first. Our families cannot be loved and served by rejecting what is good.

Craig,

In addition to what Jason said (and with which I agree), it’s also important to consider translation. Your version (1 Chron 17:13) translates chesed as love, though Strongs’ first entry is mercy. But we know that God’s mercy endures forever and that it is new every morning. So I would interpret God’s words here is something on the lines of “I won’t stop being merciful to you and I won’t take my favor (another entry for chesed) away from you as I did from the one before you.”

David was God’s chosen king; Saul was premature – he was an obvious choice for a people demanding a king NOW. Tall and handsome, brave and strong. Just the sort of person you would choose for king if you were looking on the outward appearances. And Saul was a great guy; a family man, modest and self-effacing, and he really did want to please God – in his own strength . . . .

But I don’t think that God’s having taken away His favor or mercy meant He would never again have mercy or favor on Saul. And the passage really doesn’t apply to your lesson (at least I don’t think it does) since it doesn’t talk about love as such. The word “love” in several related forms of ahab’ is not uncommon through the OT, but this word is usually not translated “love.”

Blessings, Cindy

Thanks very much Jason and Cindy for your helpful thoughts.

Cindy, that is something I never know before the group meets! We have a bit of an unusual home bible study group method that we have been trying for 18 months now and has been working quite well. We all try and get through the bible readings of one of those plans for reading the bible in a year- about 3 chapters a day . So each week there are quite a few OT and NT chapters to read. Each of us picks one thing that he or she found interesting or helpful from all of these chapters to share with the group and I direct a discussion around these issues that are raised. Questions and comments can thus be on a vast range of subjects and I try and be prepared as well as possible for anything that might come up. I have learnt to use the essential question “what do others think about that” :slight_smile: but it is still helpful to have thought about possible difficult passages beforehand.

As it turned out, no one asked about the question of God’s love “seeming” conditional, but I am still very grateful for your thoughts in helping me think it through.

Hi Craig… I think Jason’s point about audience context is important. However, if you want to broaden out that horizon such conditionality works in the form of realisation and reward. When certain conditions meet there is an inevitable effect. IOW, there is much reward in realising the love of God.