The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Church Fathers, Pedagogical Deception, and Contradictions?

I believe Gregory of Nyssa, St. Chrysostom, and other Church Fathers believed that God sometimes uses Pedagogical Deceptions (and held to the “Christus Victor” theory of the atonement), but there are passages in the Old and New Testaments that say that God cannot lie.

One of them is here.

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should be changed. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfil? (Num. 23:19.)

This passage also seems to say that God doesn’t change His mind, but the following passages seem to imply either that He does change His mind, or that He sometimes says that He’s going to do things only to achieve a desired effect.

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. (Jer. 18:7-10.)

In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying, I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, F114 that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD. And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David’s sake. (2 Kings 20:1-6.)

And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days’ journey. And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. (Jonah 3:1-10.)

If God didn’t know that Nineveh would repent, and if He didn’t foresee Hezekiah’s prayer, doesn’t that contradict the part of Num. 23:19 that says He doesn’t change?

And if He did know that things would turn out the way they did for Hezekiah and Nineveh BECAUSE He sent Isaiah and Jonah, doesn’t that contradict the part that implies He never speaks without fulfilling His word?

Didn’t He say He would take Hezekiah’s life from the illness he was suffering when Isaiah told him to get his affairs in order (because he would not recover), knowing He’d add another fifteen years to his life after he prayed?

And didn’t He say He’d destroy Nineveh in forty days knowing He’d spare the city for another century after they repented?

Is there a contradiction?

Can it be reconciled?

And is the following passage an example of what some of the Church Fathers would call a Pedagogical Deception?

And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria. And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said, LORD, open the eyes of these men, that they may see. And the LORD opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold, they were in the midst of Samaria. And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them? And he answered, Thou shalt not smite them: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master. And he prepared great provision for them: and when they had eaten and drunk, he sent them away, and they went to their master. So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel. (2 Kings 6:18-23.)

Every Commentary I’ve consulted seems to agree that this was no ordinary blindness (or else they could not have followed Elisha), but a supernatural blindness that caused their sight to be “so altered, that they knew not the objects they saw,” couldn’t recognize their surroundings, and allowed Elisha to lead them straight into Samaria.

This army returned to Syria, no one was harmed, and the war came to an end, but was this an act of divine pedagogical deception? (and how do we reconcile that with the passages that say that God cannot lie (or is there something wrong with our definition of lying)?

Can anyone help me here?

Hi Michael,

I never agreed with the church fathers on Pedagogical Deception. Concerning conditional prophecy such as the case of Jonah, I do not see that as a deception but that all prophecy of doom includes conditions. For example, implying that repentance will avert a prophetic doom with out explicitly stating the need for repentance is not lying.

I hope that helps. :smiley:

Thank you.

But if you define a lie as any knowingly made factually incorrect statement, wouldn’t saying Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days, when it would actually last another hundred years be a lie?

And wouldn’t messing with the video input of the human brain, so that a whole calvary unit followed Elisha into the heavily fortified enemy capital without knowing where they were going, be deceptive?

It seems to me that a lie might involve some kind of malicious intent, but Numbers 23:19 seems to use the word in the simple way we sometimes use it.

It says (at least in our English versions) that “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should repent. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfill?”

How would that definition leave any room for conditional prophecy?

How would you answer Balaam’s question in regard to Nineveh?

Didn’t God say, and not do?

Didn’t He speak, and not fulfill?

There’s got to be something I’m not seeing here.

Hi Michael, I feel like your taking the Bible out of context. The ancient Near East writers and readers did not focus on strict word usage as you impose on it. As I said earlier, conditions for the prophecy were implicit.

Hi Jim.

Maybe it’s Numbers 23:19 that I’ve been taking out of context.

I was just reading the parable of the two eagles in Ezekiel 17, and Numbers 23:18 introduces verse 19 as a parable (Strong’s Number 04912, same word used in Ezekiel 17:2.)

I was also re-reading Genesis 22, and God certainly seems to have had Abraham thinking He wanted Him to do something He really didn’t want him to do for awhile there, so maybe it’s Balaam’s words I’ve been taking too literally.

Maybe God can temporarily mislead or misdirect people to test them (as in Genesis 22), or prevent a war (as in 2 Kings 6), or for some other good reason (like maybe leading them to some greater truth)?

Maybe the Church Fathers who spoke of Him using pedagogical deceptions weren’t wrong after all?

Someone posted this question on a Catholic Forum.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=502101&highlight=It%27s+a+common-sense+notion+of+Christianity+that+God+does±deceive+us.+But+with+the+story+of+Abraham+sacrificing+Isaac

And someone there posted this answer.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=502101&highlight=It%27s+a+common-sense+notion+of+Christianity+that+God+does±deceive+us.+But+with+the+story+of+Abraham+sacrificing+Isaac&page=2

What do you here think of this answer?