The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What might make you lose your faith?

Hi Folks,

As a sort of offshoot from my other thread on reasons why you believe, it might be interesting (and somewhat sobering) to consider what things (if any) might make you head over towards the non-belief camp.

To get the ball rolling:

  1. Clear evidence of the non resurrection (physical) of Jesus of Nazareth: I doubt whether this is realistically obtainable even if it did exist, but I guess such a find would have me seriously questioning my Christianity (though not necessarily my theism).

  2. **New discoveries of biblical texts **(especially apostolic NT gospels) that show up major canonical NT discrepencies, changes or forgeries. Depending upon content this could be something that has little impact or could move me well away from any last vestiges of Evangelicalism.

  3. **A profound and well attested miraculous demonstration **(with myself being personally involved) that revealed ‘another’ God. This one’s tricky - I’m wary of mircle claims, and since I believe in an evil side to the supernatural I’m also wary of demonic counterfeits. But if I claim Christian religious experience as a motivator for belief, then I have to admit at least to the possibility that some truely overwhelming supernatural display could affect my current beliefs.

  4. **Very strong and persuasive arguments **that undermine the philosophical and reason-based arguments for God’s existence. Probably not enough on their own, but if all the cosmological, teleological, moral and pragmatic arguments for God could be overwhelmingly shown to be unreasnoble then it would seriously undermine my faith.

  5. **If hyper-advanced extra-terrestials show up **(especially if they either a: don’t believe in God or b: claim to have been involved in the formation of religions in earth’s history). This would change my ideas about humanity’s place in the universe, and have knock-on effects concerning the incarnation. And probably quite a few other things too.

  6. Personal suffering. Although I perhaps like to think that my faith is strong enough to weather suffering and evil I’ve never really been put to any serious test. I pray I never am. But many people lose faith from such things and I would be very arrogant to assume I’m any better than them.

not my own situation, but i know someone who lost hope due to all the promises in the Bible that God would be there to help not proving true in her life. she feels utterly hopeless as if God, if He exists, has decided to just let her suffer. she feels like His promises are empty and come to nothing when His help is most needed.

i am sure, objectively speaking, that the reason her suicide attempts thus far have failed is due to God doing that whole “footprints” thing (ie carrying her and making sure she is safe even if she doesn’t FEEL safe), but to her this would just be so much cliche til she actually comes out of it.

i can’t even answer that kind of hopelessness, so i just told her it was a perfectly valid way to feel. she’d likely heard all the answers so far anyway or thought them, and they didn’t bring comfort.

so yeah, that kind of thing i can see as being a perfectly valid reason to lose faith. the ball ends up being in God’s court, and sometimes it really seems like He either isn’t there or can’t be bothered to return it.

In Romans 10:10, it says, “for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.” (NASB)

As I looked at the list that you supplied pog, I found myself thinking that the first 5 things you listed wouldn’t cause one to lose their faith, but would necessarily change it, perhaps to the point where it no longer even resembled what it was originally. But it was item number six that really hit home with regard to what might make one lose their faith.

If it’s the heart that a person believes with, then things that change a person’s mind won’t destroy their faith, only the character of the faith that they have. Oh, but to destroy the heart, to break one’s heart… without heart, how can one believe?

I remember a time in my life where I didn’t have much heart left. I wanted to believe, truly, but it took such effort, I could barely sustain even a modest faith at that time. Those were dark times.

Since then, I have come to trust, as a tenet of Universal Reconciliation, that God will not allow anyone’s heart to be utterly, completely and finally annihilated. As I understand it, this means that there is always room for hope. Such hope has, in turn, helped me to gain heart, which has allowed for a greater faith, which allows me to see a greater hope…

It’s nice that some spirals aren’t downward!

At this point? Nothing can separate me from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus my Lord. I walked away once, but it’s in His grace, not my strength that I stand, and I’m firmly in His hand. I’ve been transferred from the kingdom of this world into the kingdom of the Son of His love and am now His slave – a slave to righteousness. I think I’ve had my ear pierced. I don’t want to leave, and while I may be permitted to sulk from time to time, I feel certain I’m not permitted to leave. :wink: That’s just fine with me.

And Corpsey and Anthro – yeah, I’ve been there. That’s why it’s not going to happen again.

Cool replies guys. :slight_smile:

I’m sympathetic towards all your internal suffering; I guess most Christians have times of the dark night of the soul, and until you’ve been through it I guess you just don’t understand how utterly soul-destroying and horrible such times are. I can’t say that I know exactly the depths you plumbed, but I too find REM’s *Losing My Religion *a meaningful song. :slight_smile: I wish church ministers recognised this reality more and were better equipped to deal with it. Hey, ho.

One problem I do see with emotional and personal responses, though, is that they undercut apologetics. A non-theist or non-christian could easily dismiss my faith as being wishful-thinking and unfalsifiable unless I could give some reasons as to what would make me change my mind or convince me to join a different religion. Does that issue ever arise with people you talk to?

Well, I’ve studied a lot, so I’m not very likely to lose my beliefs.

I’d still be an orthodox trinitarian theist looking for an (orthodox two-nature) Incarnation and Passion (and probably a preceding history similar to that of Israel in the OT) if the Gospels (and Epistles) were somehow conclusively proven wrong about Jesus’ resurrection.

Most alterations to specific details reported in canonical texts have no bearing on any of that either–if Luke sends off in his research for the Imperial census records, and someone at the office accidentally sends back a note where Joseph (and a young Jesus, as the Apostate Emperor Julian once argued!) registered for taxation in the Big Census of 8 AD, leading Luke to report that it happened in the day of the governorship of Kyrenius–not a big deal to me. Minor historical accidents happen. Worst case of persistent forgery and misreportage by the Evangelists?–I’m still an orthodox trinitarian theist looking for an Incarnation, Passion and Resurrection.

We were already warned about evil miraculous demonstrations that would deceive, if it were possible, even the elect. :wink: Christ Himself in the Gospels seems to think miracles distract too much from what He’s trying to say. Even people granted miraculous power and authority by Christ to do good in His name may at heart still be rebels rejected by Christ! So miracles by themselves are of no special theological concern to me. (Interesting and curious yes, and maybe problematic in other ways, but not a threat to my beliefs.)

I’m waaaay too well taught by C. S. Lewis to worry about hyper-advanced extra-terrestrials being any kind of threat to my beliefs. Worst case would be aliens with ironclad proof that they (or aliens of their acquaintance) were pretending to be YHWH and/or Jesus all along–their mere sayso could just as easily be opportunistic lies! Eh, back to being “only” an orthodox trinitarian theist expecting an Incarnation etc.

If atheists could decisively show that people don’t exist but are only illusions of automatic reaction and counterreaction, that would be problematic (and I’ve had some atheists try this against me on occasion!)–but it would be first and foremost problematic for them and their own arguments, since I would literally have no good reason to accept that what they were arguing was true! :laughing: And I have carefully studied metaphysics well enough to know where the existence of human rational action capability leads when all the math is added up: to theism, to supernatural theism, to binitarian theism, to ethical binitarian theism, to ethical trinitarian theism, to orthodox Christian universalism, to an expectation of the Incarnation, Passion, etc. I believe Christianity is true because I believe in atheists! (Although more particularly because I believe in the existence of the agnostic whom I love the most. :slight_smile: )

But personal suffering is often about faith in another sense. I live in unending pain every waking hour. (And I’m exhausted by stress dreams and nightmares every night.) It sucks. I don’t like it. Sometimes it isn’t so prevalent, but other times it surges. Regardless of what I may rationally believe, I often feel like God doesn’t care about me or doesn’t exist at all.

My faith in the sense of trusting God doesn’t always hold up well under torment. But I just have to keep reminding myself that no one thinks very clearly under strong emotional stress, and to just hang on until it passes and otherwise remind myself of what I have come to know. (Such as that much of my suffering, maybe even all my chronic suffering, isn’t actually unfair to me, however much it may feel that way sometimes. And I was warned by God ahead of time it would keep on being this bad if I chose to do what He was asking of me. It was clearly worth doing then, and still clearly was worth doing, and will always clearly have been worth doing.)

There is a whole other concept of unfaithfulness, of course: and that’s sin.

Yeah, in that regard I routinely lose my faith in God. :wink: But that isn’t anyone’s fault but my own.

(I acknowledge original sin effects, and how they slant my behavior, and I penitently–and often impatiently!–look to be free of those someday. But I also take personal responsibility for my misbehavior. What can be excused and cured will be excused and cured, but that leaves over what has to be forgiven and repented of.)

I’m sorry to hear about your pain and difficulties, Jason. I hope it improves for you. It is good that your faith is strong.

In response to this, I resonate with something author Donald Miller wrote in his book Blue Like Jazz:

But then again, social reasons, identity reasons, deep emotional reasons… those are among the reasons why I haven’t walked away from God, strangely enough…

By the way, Pog, did you ever read my response to your companion post, half a dozen reasons why we believe?
Let me know what you think. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you :slight_smile:

Matt

It’s interesting that we seem to concentrate more on what wouldn’t make us lose our faith than what will :slight_smile:.

I wonder if there’s reasons for that? Might it be that we’re closed minded, or scared, or that our faith is, as atheist opponents claim, unfalsifiable wish fulfilment?

ok, I’ll take the devils advocate horns off now :slight_smile:

I dunno. Considering that I ended by noting that every time I sin I “lose faith” in the sense God cares most about, I thought I was being pretty self-critical about what make me lose my faith. :wink:

I’ve lost my faith before, and somehow, amazingly, I got it back… so if I did lose it again, I probably could get it back again.
And anyways, I’ve gone through so much crap, or, more importantly, made it through so much crap, and experienced so much grace in the midst of it and along the way, that I’d be very hard-pressed indeed to totally give up on believing in God, or at least believing in some kind of ultimate goodness/light/love at the core of reality, and at work in my life and heart and in this world and universe… and I wonder if I’ve built up an immunity to the temptation to abandon my faith altogether…

Not saying that I couldn’t lose my faith, but I wonder at this point if there’s anything that could utterly destroy my faith (and I don’t mean faith in Christianity so much as faith in God, or, if not, goodness/light/love, and Christ is a very important aspect of all of that, at least at the moment, and at least to me, on some important and meaningful level) without also destroying me in the process…

I think I have one of two choices really… keep moving forward, one day at a time, one step at a time, believing that I’m loved and not alone and that I am moving towards healing, towards meaning, towards home, even though I struggle and stumble and am often tired and weary along the way; or insanity or at the very least despair in the face of finding out that all of my deepest longings and my deepest hopes are unanswerable and meaningless…

So I keep moving forward, even if that means pretty much ignoring as wrong and mistaken the opinions of those who think and believe otherwise (while respecting them as my fellow human beings otherwise, as much as possible), namely that life has no meaning, save what we choose to impose upon it, and that some of our most desperate questions have no answers, or no satisfying ones anyway…

And that’s where I’m at, to be honest.

But then again, sometimes it’s a good thing to play devil’s advocate, Pog :wink:

We need to, after all, be able to defend the hope that is within us, so we need to know that it can withstand close scrutiny, questioning, changes, and the like.

Thanks for asking such stimulating questions bro :slight_smile:

Blessings to you :slight_smile:

Matt

Hi, Pog

Yes, I do understand (or I think I do) where you’re going. You want to be reasonable to the sceptic and admit that there are some things that could prove to you that you were wrong about believing in God (whether in His simple existence or in His goodness). But I would have to admit to the atheist that God is a special case for me. While I suppose, if it turned out that He is other than He is, then He Himself could prove to me that He isn’t good and He isn’t love and He isn’t faithful, etc. But to lose my belief and faith that He exists. I just can’t think of anything at all, including the testimony of alien species, that would do that – I really and truly can’t.

And having made it halfway through Jason’s SttH book, though it’s way out of my depth, it does appear to me that it goes against logic not to believe in some personal, independently acting, ultimate cause/first cause for the universe. And, and – as I know Him, I already know that He’s good. So I suppose the atheist may feel the need to fault me for unfairness, but I am fully persuaded and by His grace I cannot see any way at all to unpersuade me. :wink:

I think you and I are on the same page on this one, Cindy :slight_smile:

Cool, folks. Thanks for the honesty! :slight_smile:

I thought of a couple more things that would really mess my faith up:

  1. If I was shown clear evidence that all my experiences of God were really psychological delusions
  2. That I awoke from the matrix/dream and found that history, reality and my life were nothing at all like I had thought
  3. That I died, went to heaven, and God explained to me that I was wrong - or if He sent me to hell

All I have are my inner perceptions, my own experiences. I think I’m sitting at my computer, but I cannot know for sure. I might be dreaming etc. If I cannot be certain even about this simple thing, I certainly cannot be certain about God. He’s big and mysterious, and I’m small and fallible. Any relationship with God will have to be grounded in faith. Always. Even in heaven, when I see Him “face to face”, how will I know this is the real God, and not a very convincing stand-in? For me, agnosticism is necessary and somewhat annoying, but no cop-out. I still have to decide how I will live. Will I live as if God is good (and worth seeking and serving), or will I live as if God is bad, or non-existent? To me, this really is a no-brainer.

If Jesus is a misunderstanding, I will seek the good God. If Adam is an alien, I will seek the good God. If Moses is a fraud, I will seek the good God. If some cosmic monster drops me in hell, I will seek the good God. (Where else should I expect to find Him if not in hell, seeking to save the lost?)

I totally agree, AllanS! The only concern I’d have is at what point would one give up the search and admit that there is no good God? At what point does atheism become more reasonable than agnosticism or scepticism?

On that very sad note I’m off for a while over Christmas. Happy holidays everyone! :slight_smile:

A sad note, and a realistic one. There are many situations which can shatter people’s faith, and I’m no stronger than the next man. Thankfully, we’re saved by God’s faithfulness towards us, not our faithfulness towards him.

Hi Pog
I find it heartwarming to read that hardly anyone has been tempted to go down the route of ‘absolutely nothing - it would be quite impossible’ because such a ‘faith’ (if it can be called a faith) is no more than a dead mantra borne out of fear.
I think Matt hit the nail on the head for me and I couldn’t put it better than his quote from Donald Miller (thanks Matt).
Thankfully, I now realise that my salvation has everything to do with the faithfulness of Christ rather than my own feeble conception of His wonderful Grace.
Good thread Pog

A lot of people lose faith because God does nothing to prevent the atrocities which continue throughout the world, day after day — atocities such as murder, torture, rape of little girls, etc. (this is the age-old “problem of evil.”) Somehow, I think God’s honouring of free-will (man has been created in the image of God, the primary feature of that image may be free will), together with His desire to see people come under His rule of their own free will, may be at least a partial explanation.

Right now, I can think of only one way in which I might lose faith. Somehow, I believe that God would not permit the utter extinction of mankind. However, if all of mankind were wiped out by a massive nuclear war, and if I were the last man on earth, and suffering excruciatingly from the effects of an enormous level of radiation, I might lose faith.

That’s another good thing that would shake faith, Paidon. Yes, I too would seriously re-consider my faith if the ending of the human species became imminent and inevitable.