The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Half-a-dozen reasons why you believe

Just for the sake of interest and thought, I want to ask people to give the six most important reasons why they are are a person of faith.

For me:

  1. I have just always believed in God. No real idea why; it just seems totally intuitive to me in the same way I believe in moral realism or the existence of other minds. Perhaps a properly basic belief, perhaps I just have a sense others (athiests?) don’t have.

  2. Various factors unknown to me. I find it highly plausible that various factors outside my control led me to theism: where/when I was born; life experiences; parents; genetic predispositions; unconscious psychological factors; the work of the Holy Spirit etc. I accept that these played their part.

  3. The refusal to accept a hopeless universe. A case of wishful thinking, perhaps? But I cannot accept; indeed I refuse to accept, that the universe is just a brute fact, that suffering is unredeemed, that justice is never done, that mind is an accident, that life is absurd, that morality is ungrounded, that death has the final word over all things. Too bleak, too horrible.

  4. The most reasnoble answer to the various cosmological & telelogical arguments seems to be God. It strikes me as more likely that a mind is behind all this than an arbitrary set of physical forces - though I’m not sure why this strikes me as more likely.

  5. The Christ-event. Jesus as a crucified, suffering, rescuing, self-denying God makes sense - against an idea this beautiful I cannot argue. Either God was in Christ reconcilling the cosmos, or God is supremely evil, or there is no God, and it seems that Jesus in His words, deeds and resurrection is more likely the first of those options.

  6. Religious Experiences. Best explanation seems to be God, as far as I can tell.

I agree with all the above.

Here’s another angle I’ve been thinking about for a while now.

All possible truths about circles exist eternally. Pi didn’t come into existence in 3000BC. Some bronze age genius *discovered *it; he did not create it. However, for an eternal truth about circles to made manifest in material space, I must sit down with a pen and paper and use symbols to reveal it. The symbols are not the truth itself. Like a map, they lead other minds to find the truth. ie. We inhabit two worlds. One sort of map guides my body; another sort of map guides my mind. Both journeys are equally real. One is material, the other immaterial.

Through contemplation, I discover something pleasing in mind-space and wish to actualize it in energy-space. I gather together tools and materials and begin. For truth to be made manifest, we need stuff to work with. If all we have is eternal truth existing in eternal mind, there can never be a material world. Truth does not mysteriously tramsmogrify into matter. But there is a material world. Therefore, energy/matter must be eternal also (neither created nor destroyed), just as truth is eternal.

Truth doesn’t become manifest unless we have stuff to work with, but stuff is not enough. Pen, paper, plus the truth about circles, will not spontaneously draw a circle. We need an actualizing agent, some way of taking what exists in eternal mind-space and actualizing it in eternal energy-space. This agent must occupy both worlds as mediator. He must always have occupied both worlds. An eternal incarnation.

So here we have it. Eternal truth (in mind-space), eternal energy (in energy-space), eternal incarnation mediating them one to the other. Father, Spirit, Son. This is the real world, as I see it. Heaven above, Earth below, and Christ, who is both Heaven and Earth. God made Flesh.

“He is the image of the invisible God… For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

We also are God’s icons. My mind and my body are joined by a mediating, actualizing agent. All three aspects are needed for me to exist as an integrated, thinking, physical person. All three are me.

What you said, Pog – and probably you too, Allan. Actually, Allan, what you wrote is beautiful. I don’t understand it, but I can “see” it, at least in part – maybe.

So . . . six MORE reasons. I’m not sure I can do this, but I’ll give it a go.

First, there has to be a first cause. Nothing else makes sense. You can back things up a l - o - n - g way, but ultimately there has to be a first cause. Don’t ask me why; ask Jason. He explains it much better, though I already knew it (in an artsy kind of a way) before I read his explanation. :wink:

Second, beauty. Why should there be beauty? The sky didn’t have to be magnificent and food didn’t have to taste yummy. Voices don’t have to be melodious; honey golden; water sparkly in the sunshine. Not necessary.

Third, complexity. The closer you look at things, the more involved they become. Does it go on into infinity in both directions? Maybe. It certainly goes on as far as we can see.

Fourth, desire. Why do we long for the infinite? A man desires sex even if he’s never had it. It may not exist for him, but it does exist, and if it didn’t exist he wouldn’t desire it. Likewise water, food, rest, and so on. We desire the infinite; it’s built in to our consciousness.

Fifth, consciousness. We are awake and aware of ourselves and our world. That is a miracle. I don’t know why; it just is. :wink:

Sixth, the miraculous; fulfilled prophecy, prophecy being fulfilled, objective and obvious physical healing, lives turned around and made to work when there was no way they COULD work because they were so messed up that no one could fix them. And then God pulls a pin and it all falls together. And you say, “That was so simple; why didn’t I think of it?” Miracles are weird. You can watch them happening and still miss it unless you’re awake. It’s as if you almost can’t see it because you “know” it can’t be happening. But it is.

There are more, but they take longer to tell, so I’ll leave room for someone else.

Thanks for a great topic, Pog!

:laughing:

I’m no philosopher, unfortunately. The ideas seem to follow logically, but only sort-of make sense to me too.

:laughing:

Great idea Mr. Pog

1… I recall going through quite a struggle to believe in God. I remember it not being easy for me to take the leap of faith. Perhap’s an atheist/agnostic. I believe the breakthrough came for me when I was standing at the patio door looking outside. It was the natural world around me that seemed to suggest a creator. One thought I had was about the fragile grass and how it happened to make it through the hard dirt. Very childlike thoughts. I was probably around 10 years of age- pivotal moment.

2… A slow, but growing acquintence with the bible characters.

These are likely the two big ones! I will add Cindy’s 1 and 2 pick as my 3 and 4

3… There has to be a first cause. Nothing else makes sense. Nothing happens just out of the blue.

4…Beauty. Why should there be beauty? “If order and beauty are reflected in the constitution of the universe, then there is a God.” - Beethoven

5… Desire. Cindy has a good point. I will steal her 4th reason as well.

6… Last, but most important. God choosing me to believe.

Yeah, good discussion guys :slight_smile:

Would love to see others’ input on this too :slight_smile:

As for myself, hmm… probably what I’d say wouldn’t be much different from Pog or Cindy, but I’ll give it a shot…

  1. The world and the cosmos. When you look at the way things are, barring the usual questions of theodicy like suffering and evil ( which will always be a challenge to faith on some level), the world and the universe do have this sense of having been designed, and there is a creative flourish about it all, not to mention pregnant mystery… sometimes it may seem kind of messy and hard to understand, the way things are in the natural order, the way things are set up, here on Earth and throughout the cosmos (which even now we still know far less about than we’d like), but there seems to be a method even to the madness, rather than just sheer randomness… hard to put my finger on all of this, but maybe you get what I mean. :wink:

  2. Human beings. We ourselves are a mystery that, at least to me, the mere chance of indifferent and unguided evolution just can’t seem to explain.
    Our bodies, our minds, which are so complex and intricate, and whose workings have yet to be completely understood even by science; our deep needs that go beyond the physical, including a deep desire within many of us, perhaps all of us whether we admit it or not, to somehow live beyond our impending deaths and someday find answers to the deepest questions and the deepest longings that we just can’t seem to find answers to in this life; our intense creativity and ingenuity; the sense of humanity’s brokenness, which people across the whole spectrum of worldviews share, and our drive to find an answer to that brokenness; the sense of the importance of relationships, and the need for love among one another, which people from virtually every walk of life and worldview share; and I could go on… strangely enough, though when we look all around us, look at the world and the cosmos, we find a lot of mystery and unanswered questions, when we look at ourselves, and at one another, we find just as much mystery, just as many unanswered questions, if not more… and that makes me think. :wink:

  3. The power of stories. Throughout history, humankind has loved to tell and hear stories.
    We tell and hear stories in literature, in film, in music, and in all kinds of artistic expression.
    But the stories that speak most powerfully, at least to me, and to many others I’m sure, are those stories that are full of conflict and struggle, but that still have an underlying hope, and lead at the end to redemption, to a meaningful resolution, to a happy ending or at least a hopeful one, towards home…
    Throughout those stories that have resonated most deeply with me those themes are prevalent, and these stories have planted a seed in my heart that tells me that my story can be like those stories, that our stories can be like those stories, and that just as these themes find themselves in our fantasy, they can also be found in our reality, that though we have conflict and struggle, we do yet have hope, and we will, in due time, find redemption, resolution, a happy ending, find home… and I believe that these stories are passionately told and attentively heard because this is the kind of story that many of us long to be a part of… and I think there’s something to all of us this. :wink:

  4. Miracles, personal experiences, etc. I’ve had a number of experiences of a spiritual quality that I really can’t explain away or ignore, where I feel that I’ve been reached out to, communicated with, and in a positive, and a personal, way, some of them more subjective, to be honest, but a few of them fairly objective, and the source of these experiences appears to be, well, God, for lack of a better word, or at least a Presence (again for lack of a better word) working behind the scenes… and it also happens that these experiences point towards Jesus Christ as being important, though I admit I still have yet to fully understand, or even barely understand if I’m honest, all the ‘theological’ implications of my experiences… it would take too long to relay all of these experiences, but let’s just say that maybe God cuts some slack for skeptics now and then. :wink:
    These experiences more than anything have helped me to believe that, at the very least, something more is going on… whether that something more can be trusted and banked on is of course a matter of faith and always open to question and doubt, but I cannot deny what I have experienced, that those things have happened.
    The best natural explanation I’ve heard for my experiences is pure chance and coincidence, or that it’s all in my head, that sort of thing, and of course I’ve entertained those possibilities, but I just don’t buy it.
    If it was just a couple things, maybe I could, but after awhile, after enough of those kinds of experiences, it kind of starts to add up, and any reasonable person could not help but be at least open to the possibility that maybe something more if going on… or at least that’s how I see it. :wink:

  5. Love. Of course, love is a broad subject matter, but in this case I mean to refer to two desires deep down inside of me, and as far as I know, in many other people, if not all people, though there are those who can become so corrupt and/or jaded that these desires can become buried or twisted and misshapen…
    One is the desire to be loved, and the second is the desire to be able to love.
    Starting out life as a loner by nature, and perhaps having some autistic tendencies, or at least a good helping of social awkwardness, love has been in some ways a mystery to me, or at least I’ve always felt that I wasn’t very good at it, at receiving love or giving love, though others who have known me would argue that… but if others could see inside of me they would know that I struggle with feeling as though I’m just not really getting it, or at least not as much as I could or should get it.
    To have the revelation that love is what life is pretty much all about, and that it matters more than anything, is a very challenging thought to someone who has a tendency to be very self-absorbed, or at least feels as though he does.
    In a number of ways, I believe that God has promised me that He would help me with this, help me to learn and grow in what it means to be loved and to love, to be more and more a part of this, well, dance…
    I wonder sometimes if love is like the spiritual equivalent to gravity or magnetism… I think it is like a spiritual energy that binds things together, much like the Force in Star Wars, only, well, a little different :wink:
    And when it is not present within or between people, who are meant to be vessels of this, well, divine energy, then things get more and more out of whack… but when it is present, then there is an ever increasing beauty and glory… just as there are forces within nature that bring order out of chaos, that bring life out of death, forces that bind things together, I think love is meant to work in much the same way on a spiritual level…
    Not sure if I’m making any sense, but this is one of the reasons why I believe, because for one, love does exist, as few would argue, but it would have little meaning, at least to me, if it was just a fluke of evolution, or if death was final and irreversible… if anything is stronger than death, then it must be love… I can’t prove that scientifically, but there are many who believe that regardless, and I think there is a good reason for it…
    In connection with this is my desire to be a better man; a good husband and father in the future, a good friend and brother, a good son, a good man… to reach my full potential, to find my place in the dance of life…
    But I feel so broken and messed-up so much of the time, with so many weaknesses and shortcomings… perhaps I’m too hard on myself, but I know for sure that I need help, and lots of it. And I cannot turn to myself for help… I know, I’ve tried. But I’ve found out time and again that I can’t just pull myself up by my bootstraps.
    And I cannot turn to other people, because they are in the same boat as me.
    We all need help becoming better people, more or less, we all need help learning how to receive and give love well, we all need help finding strength and courage and wisdom for each step… we all need help finding healing and finding freedom…
    we all need help learning how to dance in this thing we call life…
    So I turn to God for help, because I don’t know who else to turn to… there are those who think I am a fool to do so, clinging to old superstitions and believing in something that is no more sensible than believing in fairies or Santa Claus, but I can’t help it…
    I heard a little story once of an old woman who had faith in God, and an atheist told her that her faith was nothing more than a crutch… she replied that when a person has much difficulty walking, then it better for you to have a crutch that helps you to walk than no crutch, without which you would just fall down and wouldn’t be able to walk at all.
    I can relate to that little story, and that’s kind of how I feel about it.
    I need help walking in love, and I think we all do. And may God help us all in this. We can love because He first loved us…

  6. Trust. All of us fall short in one way or another, and many of us find rather quickly in life that we can neither trust one another in everything nor can we trust ourselves in everything. Not that we can’t have any trust in one another or even in ourselves, we can have some measure of that, in fact, I believe some measure is required for healthy relationships and healthy self-esteem, respectively… but is there anyone out there that we can trust completely, with all that we are?
    So I look to God. Like my fiancee Kaylyn says ‘if we can’t trust God, then who can we trust?’
    If we can’t trust our Creator, then the whole rug is pulled out from under us, so to speak.
    But if we can, then we have no need to be afraid.
    Though it is difficult to trust someone that you can’t see with your eyes or hear with your ears or touch with your hands, let alone understand fully, at least we have a shot with God at finding someone in which we can have perfect trust, who will never disappoint us or let us down, will never do us harm or abandon us in our time of need… of course, there are many who feel that God has disappointed them or let them down, who feel that God has done them harm or abandoned them… faith tells us that though that is the perception, it is not the reality…
    Faith tells us that God, in the end, will not disappoint us or let us down, that God is in the business of healing rather than harming people, and that He will never leave us or forsake us…
    There will always be room for doubt, but as for me, I can’t help but take a shot at the possibility that there is Someone out there, and even near at hand, that I can truly count on no matter what.
    And in connection with this is the deep desire to be known and understood. We can get to know one another fairly well, but there will always be something missing. We are basically stuck inside our own skins, and cannot read one another’s minds or look into one another’s hearts. We cannot live another person’s life, or know and understand exactly how they feel, because we are not them.
    But there is this deep desire, in myself, and in many others I’m sure, to be completely known and understood, and even more, completely accepted, warts and all… there is this fear that many of us have that if others knew absolutely everything about us, then they would reject us…
    But what if there was Someone who knew us and understood us even better than we did ourselves and knew all of the bad stuff about us as well as the good, but still fully accepted us and wanted us even so?
    What if there was Someone who could get inside of our hearts, our inner being, and commune with us there, share in our life, our struggles and our joys, and fully know us and be one with us?
    At least in my mind, if there is no God, then we will never find anyone, ourselves included, that we can trust completely, with all that we are, and who will never disappoint us or let us down in the end, nor will we ever find anyone that will truly understand us, understand who we are and what is inside of us, even those things that we ourselves can’t understand… and if no one like that exists, then, though we have ourselves and one another, and that is something, we will always be missing something, and, in some important sense, at least on the inside, be alone, and that to me would be a sad thing.
    So that is one of my reasons for believing, because I long to be able to trust someone completely, and long to be understood completely… also, I hope to learn from this someone how to become more trustworthy and understanding myself…
    Not sure if I’m making any sense with this, but maybe you get what I’m saying. :wink:

Well, those are six reasons for why I believe, at least that I can think of. Sorry for my long drawn out rambling… but that’s my two cents, and hopefully I’ve contributed something of value. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you all

Matt

:laughing: Matt – that’s not 2 cents – that’s like $1.50 at least. :wink:

You always have good things to say, Bro. I particularly like the one about story. That’s huge. To look at the stories we tell . . . they’re all the same. The prince and his destined bride and the fight with whatever force of evil tries to prevent them from coming together. All the best stories – all the real stories are about relationship and the struggles to love and give love and redeem the loved one or be redeemed – or both. All your reasons are good, but I like that one most of all.

Cheers, edwardtulane82 - that’s a lot of stuff! :slight_smile:

You seem very drawn to the idea of design or purpose in the universe, either in the cosmos itself or in humans. And you marry this with our sense of love, beauty, spiritual experience and our desire for trust and narrative. All very cool, and no doubt many (myself included) share these insights, so thanks for expressing them :slight_smile:

I agree that if we can’t trust God then who can we trust? I guess we cry out for purpose and love and for our own stories to be heroic and noble and come to a good end, so when we see a reflection, no matter how blurred, of these things out there in the cosmos or in religious texts we grapple them to our hearts. Maybe the desire is itself evidence of God.

Yes, me and my excess verbiage :laughing:

Thanks sis, I figured you would appreciate that one :slight_smile:
In fact, I believe that God has given me some of the most powerful revelation, and some of the deepest encouragement, in the context of stories, whether in literature or in film, and that is how much of the hope that is within me has been written on my heart.
And some of, if not most of, those stories that have spoken most powerfully to me have been children’s stories, or at least stories with children as, or among, the prominent characters within them. I guess God knows I’m a kid at heart, and no doubt you are too. :wink:

I think you hit the nail on the head, bro, that sounds like me :wink:
Only most of the time it’s all pretty vague in my head, until I actually take time to write it out…

And I guess I would like my story to be heroic and noble, but I’d settle with a story that is mostly awkward and haphazard, with many mistakes along the way and yet many bright markers of hope along the way as well, a story riddled with failure but also riddled with grace… that would be fine by me, and well enough for me, as long as it all had a good end. :slight_smile:

And I agree that we latch onto these things for a reason, and an important one at that.

It reminds me of a couple excerpts from a sermon about faith by one of my favorite authors, Frederick Buechner:

and

And aye, I agree that that desire, that that longing and aching within us, is some of the best evidence there is. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you :slight_smile:

Matt

I really only have one.

Because God sent His Son- that is what makes me a person of faith, in Him, specifically.

It is true too that I seemed to always have a sense that God was there, since my earliest childhood recollections.

Also true is that I had no idea who He was…His Name, His Son, until 16 when He revealed Himself to me in Jesus. He musta been smiling a silly grin at me when I was at that Ashram then chanting, trying to find Him. :slight_smile:

The Lord is good! and Wonderful! and I remain for ever grateful for His love to me, and to all mankind.

I’ll give you my reason.

Because I don’t know, and I see no reason why an infinitely good God is impossible. I think it may be possible for such a being to exist. Why, then, should I not believe? Why should I not put my hopes in something that cannot disappoint? If he’s not real, I won’t know anyway when I’m dead.

I so love you guys who think with your minds!

And yes, this infinitely good God is not only possible, but Is.

He made you & He knows every hair on your head, counted.

Only believe. You are loved.
God sent His Son.