The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage

I agree 100% Jael Sister. My partner in life now had the exact same experience with her father only, her mother did not divorce because she would have been ostracized, and isolated from her family and her “church family”. The scars are very evident, but God is GOOD! We are helping each other day by day out of real love for each other and for God to work through all the junk that accumulates throughout life.

Sanctified and Jaelsister:
I want to thank you immensely for what you have posted. I also want you to know that I wish you could know the ‘real me’ as well as the poster on the internet. All I can say is, despite what I believe regarding divorce (as previously posted), I am frequently paying the cost for NOT judging those who others seem very ready to judge. I wasn’t going to post this but, for example, when I said that I would attend my sisters second marriage (and no other members of my family would), my other sister said that I was never to set foot in her house again if I went. I still went because I hate judgement of individuals in that way. I do not believe any human can judge another unless they have walked in their sandals. All I know is that these people have endured suffering.
I am sure that I could learn a lot from both of you.
God bless.

P.S.
Sanctified:

I don’t doubt what you have written for one minute so I am not questioning it at all. What I wonder is how this relates to UR? Is it that God will grant us that capacity in the next life?

Pilgrim,

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your question, my individual beliefs about sanctification run a bit askew from most everyone I talk to and on top of that I don’t have it all completely figured out.

What I do feel confident in is that (without getting into a LONG theological conversation) is that when I enter into the realization of my personal justification wrought by the work of Christ, when I actively enter into the reconciled relationship I have with God He sanctifies me. I am made a new creation, that is, in my spirit. I am hidden in him, I am seated with him in the heavens. I am one with him as he is one with the father (another theological conversation), that is, again, in my spirit.

Unfortunately, my spirit for a brief mist more must endure the flesh, this deteriorating “tent” of imperfection and corruptibility. The power of sin (another theo talk, is it an entity, a personification, or other thatPaul references in Romans.) is in my physical body, perhaps at the very core in my DNA, or perhaps buried deep in my psyche. It wages war against the new creation spirit/heart that I have. Somehow (here’s the part I cant quite articulate yet) even though the power of God is present in me, sometimes the power of sin gets the better of the war and my mortal body sins. Paul points out in Romans that is not me sinning, that is sin in my flesh sinning.

Justification, I believe, happened one time at the cross by the satisfactory sacrifice of the Lamb to appease the righteousness of God for all. Sanctification, I believe, is what I mentioned above when we enter into active relationship with God and He consecrates us to himself, this happens by our choice, He doesn’t force us. For some that may come MUCH later than others (another conversation, why does a measure of faith large enough to believe manifest in some sooner than others with the exact same set of circumstances?). One day Glorification, I believe, will happen when when my corrupted tent will be replaced with something we have yet to experience, an incorruptible tent. Then we shall be free from this war that wages on and we will never falter in doing right even as the Son never falters. It isn’t that I do not believe we have the capacity and also even the desire here and now, it is that we are obstructed and thwarted by this presence that we have lived with so long that we confuse it with ourselves and give way to it as though we were making the decision. I think to this point Paul’s comments about “taking every thought captive” and “I buffet my body” and “who will deliver me from this body of DEATH” are right on the mark. We can, do, and will have victory, even often but there will be this constant struggle.

My apologies for the 3 terms justification, sanctification, glorification, it is a fall back on the vernacular that I was raised with in fundy land. I really try to take the mystery out of theology speak when I converse with people. I am even more comfortable with made right with God, made one with God, made righteous as God in all parts of my being.

Thanks again for conversation and questions, I am not sure what all of your experiences are but the last few conversations have been a real blessing. To be able to converse intelligently, lovingly, and and with common purpose is so refreshing. Actually refreshing is likely not the right word as I do not believe I have ever really experienced this, it has always been one group trying to persuade another that they are right. So I guess this is just “fresh” :smiley: Anyway, THANKS!

Pilgrim, I always learn much from your posts. Especially the ones I don’t agree with :wink:
You give me new slants to consider things by. I like that. It’s what we are here for- to sharpen each other.

Just so you’re clear, I wasn’t offended by anything you said. Just adding an additional perspective. I sympathise with your views. Particularly as a midwife, I see all the broken families, children giving birth to children, on a daily basis.

It’s hard to say this without sounding patronising. But I was so proud of what you said about attending your sister’s wedding. I’d just been bemoaning to my mother earlier at how few men had the integrity and courage of their convictions; to stand up and do what’s right, even when it’s difficult, thankless and at personal cost. I wish we could all know each other too :slight_smile:

I entitled my book “God Is A Divorce’ Too” based on Jer. 3:8 where God says that He wrote Israel a bill of divorce and sent her packing because of her perpetual and increasing adultery. My hope wat that 1) it would be an eye-catcher, 2) it would comfort divorce’es to know that God understands that pain and devestation of divorce, and 3) to be an emotional jab at the traditional doctrine and the judgmentalism that flows out of it. And I just kinda like being controversial, saying things that make people stop and think. I’ve found that it succeeded on all accounts, though it was a little too disturbing for some, and the more traditional thought I was somehow speaking evil of God even though it’s a biblical analogy.

Also Pilgrim, previously you asked how the concept of divorce relates to UR. In regards to that I find the Jer. 3 passage to be very encouraging. In this passage the Lord promises to even bring reembrace Israel if she repents after having been divorced and taken off into captivity. The Lord says:

“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the LORD,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the LORD,
‘I will not be angry forever.
Only acknowledge your guilt—
you have rebelled against the LORD your God,
you have scattered your favors to foreign gods
under every spreading tree,
and have not obeyed me,’”
declares the LORD.

What a wonderful promise. To me it is a wonderful picture of God’s enduring faithfulness - that though we sell ourselves to other gods, His arms are always open and ready to recieve us back. Could this be a picture of what happens to people in the afterlife, after having been taken completely off into captivity? I think so.

I was raised in a denomination that had little or no assurance of salvation. Being saved was very dependant upon how good a person lived, if one took all the right steps to salvation and then remained faithful. Many years ago though, long before I came to embrace UR, I came to believe and trust that my salvation rested wholly in the goodness, faithfulness, love, and mercy of God. I came to believe and trust that all my sins had been forgiven, even sins that I had not committed yet, sins that I repented of and even the many sins that I would not repent of until I stood before the Lord in judgment, sins that I recognized and the untold number of sins that I didn’t even know were sins until He reveals them to me. I came to realize that I did not save myself, I did not choose to have faith but it was given to me, developed in me. And if I didn’t save myself then I certainly couldn’t expect to keep myself saved. It was very liberating to recognize that salvation rested fully in the Lord.

Sanctification:
I cannot hear enough about justification, sanctification and glorification so I thank you for the time you have given to my question and the thoughts you have provoked. What a wonderful future we have thanks to God.

Jaelsister. You are far too gracious. My mother was a district midwife (she died a year ago) and, amongst many other things, was instrumental in getting ‘running water’ to a squatters camp where her work was called for. She was a fierce lady when she needed to be and likewise I see a similar strength in you so it comes as no surprise to hear that you to are a midwife. May God bless, bless, and bless your amazing ministry.
Like you, I learn the most from those with whom I disagree.
For me, I cross swords and then take time to mull over and masticate the others POV. It may be days, weeks or even months before a seed that has been sown in my mind/spirit comes to fruition.
I do not find these forums easy but I believe they can be beneficial - like one distasteful drug from a big medicine chest.

Sherman
Please forgive this slight derailment. I’m reading your posts with great interest & thanks for Jer 3.

Hey Pilgrim, it’s no derailment at all. I think that it is always good to couch theological discussions in real-life context, so that we can be not only heavenly minded but also have our feet on the ground. And thanks for sharing the personal information.

Sanctification and JaelSister, thanks for sharing.

I’ve been meaning to chime in here for awhile now, but just hadn’t got a chance to get around to it (I’m a prolific writer [or in this case, typer], and places to share my thoughts keep popping up elsewhere online or even on the forum here… so many bases to cover :laughing:)

Thanks for bringing all of this up, Sherman, as everything I’ve read here has been very thought-provoking.

I’ve noticed that in coming to question the tradition of everlasting punishment/separation, I am not so afraid to question other traditions as well, including traditions concerning marriage.

And this is very relevant issue for me at the moment, as I’m engaged to be married, and will probably be tying the knot sometime in December.

Both my fiancee, Kaylyn, and I come from divorce. Her father left when she was a child, and her parents divorced soon after, and my mom left my dad when I was 19.

Kaylyn can’t remember much of what it was like, as she was so young, she just remembers a lot of fighting, and she feels the pain of not having had a father growing up, and still struggles with anger towards him… they spend time together only on rare occasions, and aren’t very close… hopefully that will change…

In my case, being older when my parents split, I can remember it well, as it was only ten years ago… my parents fought alot over the years, but in the last couple years it was just… its like there was a coldness between them…
After my dad had a mild heart attack, which doctors said wasn’t nearly as bad as it could have been, my dad decided to quit working, and stayed at home and expected my mom, and us, to take care of him… my dad was turning into this needy, vindictive couch-potato, and it was just… well, sad. :frowning: I hated seeing him like that… it’s hard having a father that you don’t feel you can look up to…
My mom put up with a lot from my dad over the years (I could go into detail, but I don’t want to dishonor my dad, he’s doing better now, which I’ll share more about later here) and I think she just got to the point when she couldn’t take it anymore… and she felt that not only was he dragging her down, but also my sister and I down, and even himself too…

So she felt the only thing she could do, after having tried everything, after having tried to work things out, after 25 years of marriage, was to leave him…

It was a difficult experience. I can still remember it vividly… I don’t have time now to tell the whole story, but lets just say that it was a big change for all of us. At first it was really scary, and surreal… it happened soon after I had walked away from the Christian faith and God, having explored it and tried to have a relationship with God in my last couple years of high school, but becoming disillusioned, I gave up on it… and my parents splitting up only disillusioned me more…

I was angry with my dad more than my mom actually during all of this, and for a couple years after that I think, angry for how he’d basically driven my mom to leave, and for how he made me feel pathetic knowing that he, my father, at the time, was so, well, pathetic :frowning:

So it was a difficult time for me, and I’m sure it was for my sister too… but we had both sided with my mom, and actually on some level wanted the split to happen… so in that I can relate to Jael…

Eventually my dad reconciled with my sister and I after a few years, and though we don’t see him much, we’re on good terms with him, and he and my mom, though by no means friends, are still civil with each other…

My mom and my sister and I live together in a trailer, and my dad lives on the coast with his now fiancee, and we all seem to be doing better for it, even if there is a certain amount of sadness to it, at least to me…

My mom takes my sister and I down there to visit with him sometimes… we try to see him around Father’s Day, which is coming up soon…

Though my dad isn’t perfect by any means, I don’t see him as pathetic anymore. Flawed and fallible yes, but not pathetic.
He seems to be doing better, seems to be more active and engaged in life, and perhaps a little more humble.
So perhaps in some sense, my mom leaving him was good for him in the long run, which was one of the reasons why she said she left him, because she said it would be a good wake up call for him. And it was.

And it drove my sister and I to get jobs and become more engaged in life ourselves, where before we had little motivation for it, being around my dad… though both my sister’s journey and mine have been far from smooth sailing. :neutral_face:

It’s a difficult, painful, sad thing… but I wonder if sometimes it’s necessary, like war is sometimes necessary… :neutral_face:

With this background and with Kaylyn’s background, one wonders if we would share the same fate as our parents before us in our marriage… but it leaves us with the knowledge that what we are getting into is far from easy, and with determination to do whatever we can to stay together and keep our relationship strong and alive…

And we both know that we will need God’s help to do this… He’s the one who brought us together, and the only one who can keep us together… so being committed and staying close to your mate, I’m thinking, is both hard work and even more, grace… so I will pray for strength and for grace for both Kaylyn and I, and I would appreciate all of your prayers as well. :slight_smile:

Amy, thank you for sharing your sister’s story… that must have been really hard for her… :neutral_face: My own sister has been in some bad relationships as well (though maybe not so bad as that), so I can relate to how that must have made you feel…
I don’t think my sister has ever been in any overtly abusive relationships, but if she was, you could be sure that I would have a strong urge to take a bat to the guy. :neutral_face:

But it’s a testament to your sister’s character that she didn’t hate him for how he was treating her, and even though he deserved that, and still cared for him on some level.
In that she showed God’s heart towards broken and messed up people, and it’s a beautiful thing. It is tragic that he ended his life, but we have the hope that God will show him mercy, cast out his darkness, and heal his brokenness…

I’m glad to hear that your sister is doing better now. She deserves some rest and some peace after going through all of that.

Blessings to you, and to your sister as well :slight_smile:

And Sanctified, thank you for being so brave as to share your story. That you care about the pain the divorce has caused your children is something beautiful and I think they will see that more clearly in the future as they get older, and though they will likely feel the same sadness I’ve felt, still knowing that you love them, I believe, will make a difference and comfort them in their sadness.

And I appreciate your thoughts on justification, sanctification, and glorification as well. What you have to say makes a lot of sense to me. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you bro, and may God’s grace be upon you and your children, and on your ex-wife as well.

May God be gracious to all of us, because we all need His help in loving one another…

Thank you again Sherman for bringing up this important subject, and thank you all for sharing from your heart.

One of the greatest parts of UR to me is the hope that one day all of the broken, frayed or even severed relationships between people will somehow be mended and made right, that not only will everyone be reconciled with God, but we will all be reconciled with one another… it’s a beautiful hope. It seems impossible of course…
We look around us at all of the war and fighting and the abuse and hurt, at people who once loved one another now strangers to each other, at children crying, at the cries within us, for an end to the war within us and to be free from all the brokenness and the mess inside of each and every one of us, and it is hard to believe that it is possible, that so many wrongs could be made right, that so many wounds could be healed… but with God all things are possible, as Jesus said, and that is a hope worth holding onto… :slight_smile:

Blessings to you all, and peace

Matt

@Matt: I’m on my laptop and haven’t mastered the art of cutting and pasting on a touchpad, but what you said about having the hope that all would be made right and all relationships be restored is so reflective of what I hope Heaven is too…I don’t care about streets of gold. I don’t care about having a mansion, (not that I really believe these should be taken literally anyway), but even if they were literal, I just don’t care about that kindof thing. I want PEOPLE to be happy, whole and in harmony with God and each other…ALL PEOPLE…There is NOTHING I’d rather have. There is nothing that could possibly buy me off and make me feel satisfied other than that either. Sass.

In discussing this topic one of the challenges that I commonly run into is people misinterpreting what I say/write and thinking that I am somehow affirming that it should be able to come and go out of marriages just as we desire. I don’t understand how people get this impression. Maybe it is because in disagreeing with the traditional doctrine they assume I don’t value marriage or think that we should strive for healthy lasting marraiges.

For example, no matter how careful I am in explaining that the traditional doctrine of indissolubility is bogus and that the truth is that marriage is very breakable, they think I’m somehow saying that marriages should be broken or that we should not care if marriages are broken or that marriages should be broken for any reason and it just doesn’t matter if marriages are broken. When in reality I believe that recognizing marriage is breakable will help us think more correctly of our marriages and not take them for granted and help people, especially Christians, have healthy and lasting relationships/marriages.

Which does one protect with more care and effort, a priceless solid gold statue or a priceless China vase? In like manner, the more we realize just how fragile our relationships and marriages are the more we will seek to protect them and the better decisions we can make in that regard.

I also point out that marriage is not a “sacrament”, but is a covenant; and it is not a “divine covenant”, but is a “human covenant”. In pointing this out people somehow jump to the errant conclusion that I do not think whether marriages last or don’t matters to God. And yet this is fartherest from my mind. I believe that God ordained marriages as the healthiest means of fulfilling personal and social needs, as a means of procreation, and as a foundation for society as a whole. Healthy marriages and families result in healthy communities and nations. Unhealthy families result in the destruction of communities and nations. But marriage is not a “sacrament”. It is not something only for Christians. It is not a “means of grace”, unless of course you are marrying a Grace :slight_smile:! Marriage is a covenant, an agreement of two individuals to live together for mutual benefit. And covenants have expectations within them. Love might be unconditional, but relationship is not! For relationships to be healthy and lasting there must be strong personal boundaries and clear and realistic expectations.

Well, anyhow, I just throw this out there for discussion. Any thoughts? Also, does anyone have any comments or questions regarding any other scriptures on this topic?

Hey Sherman,

Something I notice happens to me sometimes if I’m reading something that makes me anxious . . . maybe, for example, I feel that someone is about to say something inexcusable (in my eyes). The first bit of verbiage I see could be taken in a couple of ways, and of course I’m predisposed to take it in the worst way possible. After that maybe I just skim because I “know” this is going to make me angry and I really don’t want to hear it.

Now I know full well that this is irrational (and usually I don’t do it), but sometimes I can’t seem to help it. Later, I come back and read over it more carefully so I can respond if necessary, and I ALWAYS find that I’ve misinterpreted. I try to remember to read precisely, to make sure I understand to the best of my ability what the person wants to communicate. But not everyone does this, as you may have noticed. :wink: It’s very human to jump to conclusions based on the first paragraph.

All that to say this . . . when you say something like “marriage is breakable,” my first understanding of this statement is going to be that it’s legally/religiously permissible to break a marriage agreement – that it’s breakable says to me that it’s okay to break it. It looks somewhat like a legal maneuver to me, rather than the result of dropping a crystal goblet.

I’ve been through not one, but two broken marriages. As one of the brothers in our group says of some girls: “She has a broken picker.” :laughing: That was me. Twice abandoned, and I don’t think I’m really all THAT hard to live with. Thank God I now have a husband who loves me so much more than I deserve – but it was very difficult for him to convince me beyond a doubt that He’s not going to change his mind. But what I’m trying to get at is that your saying that marriages can be broken didn’t outrage me as much as it would have done when I was, say, 20. So I can read on and see what you’re really trying to say.

It’s a great hook, btw, but when you use a hook like that you really HAVE to go out of your way to explain it – pretty much right after you use it. Otherwise that’s all a lot of people are going to see. It might work better for you to start right off with “Marriages are fragile and easily shattered – therefore they must be treated with care.” Then I think you’ll find that people read on a little more calmly and are more likely to understand what you’re trying to communicate. Words like “fragile” and “shattered” aren’t legal terminology in any sense, so no one will mistake them for that.

So . . . I hope you don’t mind my wee bit of writing advice. I have a bad habit of offering teaching to people who don’t always want or need it. But I figure we all learn from one another. I’m still waiting for your book to arrive, btw, but I’m told that it’s on its way. The things you’ve shared so far have helped me a great deal and I’m eager to read the whole thing. :slight_smile:

Love, Cindy

Thanks for the feedback Cindy, especially the constructive criticism. The following comment was especially interesting:

“when you say something like “marriage is breakable,” my first understanding of this statement is going to be that it’s legally/religiously permissible to break a marriage agreement – that it’s breakable says to me that it’s okay to break it. It looks somewhat like a legal maneuver to me, rather than the result of dropping a crystal goblet.”

And yet all I’m trying to communicate is the fact that marriage is breakable, not indissoluble as the church has taught for generations. There is a vast difference between “should not” and “cannot”, and that is what I’m trying to communicate. Jesus said “What God has joined together man should not tear apart”, not “cannot”.

What I desire is to help Christians move from thinking of marriage in unrealistic terms and think of marriage realistically, from being founded upon unscriptural principles to being founded on scriptural principles. I believe this is important to help us have healthy lasting relationships/marriages. Challenging tradition is, well, challenging.

My 2 cents, and that’s all it is!! :laughing:

I came from a “broken” home…my parents were “madly” in love and I mean that literally. They loved each other so much, BUT, they did NOT like each other at all. The hell us children paid for their continuous fighting left it’s mark on all three of us kids. The idea of parents “staying together” when they actually can’t stand each other DOES take it’s toll on children. We weren’t stupid, we SAW and FELT the anger and tension, etc. It was HELL living in our house growing up. They finally split when I was 14, and surprisingly, they made much better friends (after 30 years) than they did man and wife. We, as children, paid the price though and have spent years in therapy trying to undo what we thought was OUR fault. Their love ran so deep, that when my dad was dying (34 years after they divorced) my dad admitted that my mother was the love of his life. However, they were SOOOO young when they got married and did NOT have the skills to make it work, so as kids, we did pay their price. Children instinctively know when there is a problem in the home. Kids are smart, so the idea of staying together for the kids, well, my experience is it cost an awful lot of money to undo the damage. I believe they DID love each with such passion and they had so much in common musically, but they just didn’t like each other and our church didn’t believe in divorce so they stuck it out for “us.” Yes, they tried therapy, etc., but to no avail. I can’t look back and say I would be better off IF they had divorced sooner, but I can say it was living hell in our home while they argued it out and “tried” to make it work. Those scars now run deep because as kids we somehow thought it was OUR fault. Yeah, in my heart I wish they had been together when my dad died, but they weren’t and this is our reality as a “family.”

Again, ONLY my 2 cents.

Blessings,
Bret

Exactly – and that’s the point; communication. It’s a vital message from what is (to me) a fresh perspective. When I first got married, that was my take on it; once you’re married, that’s it. You’re safe. Sure, people do get divorced all the time, but that won’t happen to US, because we aren’t like that, and even more important, I am not like that. Yeah. Like I’m superwoman and since it all comes down to me, well, I know it won’t happen because I won’t let it. :unamused:

It is absolutely possible (and even likely) to get to the point that you have, in reality, no choice. It was I who filed for divorce in both marriages and both times on the advice of men who were pastoring the churches I attended at the time. When one partner leaves the marriage, there’s not lot you can do about it. And while in my case it was a physical leaving, that’s almost merciful compared to what some spouses have gone through. So . . . as my sweet husband said to his youngest, “Choose wisely, my son.” :wink:

That’s so hard; at such a young and inexperienced age, to get past the fog of emotion and need and desire to make a considered choice. And beyond that, all the obstacles in the path of learning to live together in peace, let alone in the ecstatic joy that, in their heart of hearts, most young people expect. They don’t understand that it takes years of tears and denying of self(ishness) and looking the other way concerning one another’s very real faults to even get to the point of general happiness some of the time. Love is self sacrifice and friendship and pouring yourself out for the other person. It isn’t getting your needs met and finding someone to make you happy. It’s plain hard work.

Anyway – you’re absolutely right. I think some folks just have a hard time getting past that first big bump.

Love in Him, Cindy

You’re right, it is a completely different perspective! Couples marry thinking that secures their relationship and they fail to recognize that, well, change and growth and death is a natural part of life! And if we do not care for our relationship and grow together, we will grow apart and run the risk of the relationship dying and divorce terminating the marriage!

To me marriage is like a wiskey barrell. The slats are the various aspects of the relationship, our mental, emotional, physical, financial, spiritual lives together. These various slats of the relationship are held together by steel rings (marriage covenant, civil law, social pressure, familial support, and religious support). And even though these steel rings seem give us a sense of permanance, all we need do is break a slat or two and the whole thing starts to fall apart!

I was teaching this in an evening 4-hour seminar I held on this subject. One of the ladies that came interrupted my presentation and in frustration asked something along the lines of, “I’m in the middle of a divorce right now; and well, if marriage is breakable, what do I do to have a marriage that lasts?” And out of my mouth came, “If you want a lasting marriage, marry a man of compassion and integrity and be one yourself!” Soon after that we had a break and I don’t think she came back in, if I recall correctly. She didn’t like the response apparently, but I think it is what she needed to hear. I got the impression that she was the type of lady who had what I call the “bad-boy syndrom”. She was drawn to men who were dangerous, who were a challenge to win and keep, who all the ladies liked and wanted a relationship with. She was not interested in character but in excitement. I could be absolutely wrong for I didn’t and don’t know her; but that’s the impression I got when she asked her question. (Oh, and I’m not saying that was your problem; it’s just an example of why I believe it is important to recognize that marriage is breakable, fragile even.)

Over the years I’ve pondered why so many marriages end in divorce, especially in the American culture. I believe that one of the primary reasons is our Dating system. Think about it. What we practice we do. In the dating system, young people, long before they are ready or able to marry, start and break relationships. They start a relationship solely to meet their personal needs and wants. When that relationship no longer meets their needs/wants or another possibly better relationship presents itself, they break that relationship and move on to a new one. We make and break relationships, sometimes from childhood, accumulating emotional and metal baggage. And then one day we decide to marry someone and make that relationship permanent, when all we’ve done is practiced starting and ending relationships! Why then would we think that “marriage” would change us/them? It just doesn’t make sense!

I’ve taught my children to have more of a courting mindset, to avoid personal intimate relationships until they are ready to marry. And even then when they are ready to marry (financially, career, housing, spiritually, emotionally, etc.) then consider your existing relationships/friendships and ask God’s guidance in selecting one to continue growing togther for life. My sons haven’t followed that perfectly, but on the continuum of extremes are leaning on that side of things. This has protected their hearts and the hearts of the young ladies they are friends with. In our culture though this is very hard to do. My sons seem to always have several young ladies trying to draw them into a personal intimate somewhat committed relationship.

I believe we need to approach MDR much more practically and realistically, and less religiously and romantically.

You make a lot of sense, Sherman. Now, if they’d only listen to us. :confused: But honestly, when I was that age I did just what you’re describing. It was just the way it was done. As for the bad boy thing, though I suppose that tendency in women has probably been around for a long time, but it would help, I think, if Hollywood and Nashville and Harlequin didn’t work so very hard to sell impressionable young women on the “cool,” exciting, dangerous boys. :frowning:

Blessings, Cindy :slight_smile:

I think I’m at the point in my relationship with Kaylyn where I’ve invested so much time and so much of my heart into it (we’ve been a couple for about five and a half years now, engaged for three and a half and planning on getting married this coming December) that it’s unthinkable for me to give up on it.

There are times we have disagreements or get upset with each other or need to work things out (which we always do), but all in all our relationship has been positive, and even after all this time we still have a lot of affection for each other and enjoy each other’s company, and care deeply for one another.

There are difference between us, mostly in how we think and in how we communicate, but we share many of the same views and beliefs and convictions on things (for example, she believes in UR too, and long before I did), we both have a healthy sense of humor (which often diffuses any tension there may be between us), we’re both writers (I’m more into writing poetry and reflective stuff, and she’s more into writing stories, but still), we both have known loneliness and both come from broken homes (so we relate to each other in that) and we both have a childlike way of looking at the world sometimes (we’re both kids at heart, in other words), among other things…

Our biggest differences are in how I’m more of a deep thinker (or maybe in how I just think a lot, or as Kaylyn says ‘too much’ :laughing:) whereas Kaylyn tries to keep things simple (she says she just wants to live and enjoy her life), and in how I’m more about talking (again, ‘too much’ :laughing:)and she’s more about body language. So I think those will likely be our biggest challenges, being able to understand each other and communicate with each other… so with these things in mind, I know it’s not going to be easy…

But then I think sometimes differences can be a good thing… recently I got into watching the Rocky series of films, and I remember in the first one how different Rocky and his girl Adrian were, but when Adrian’s brother Paulie asks him why Rocky wants to be with his sister, Rocky says ‘we fill each other’s gaps’.
I can relate to that… not to say that Kaylyn and I complete each other (a la Jerry Maguire), only God can do that, but that we fit together somehow, some of my strengths her weaknesses, some of her strengths my weaknesses, that sort of thing… basically, I get this idea that we would be stronger or more whole together as a couple then we would be apart as individuals… I have no illusions that Kaylyn is going to meet all of my needs, or that I’m going to meet all of her’s… we’ve even talked about this.

But nevertheless, I believe that our relationship is a gift, and a good thing worth holding onto and keeping alive.

There are a few ‘signposts’ as I call them, little miracles, that sort of thing, that have encouraged me to believe that God brought Kaylyn and I together and means for us to be together, and I began my relationship with her around the same time that I came back to faith in God after wandering off for four-five years, and being with her has brightened my life in a lot of ways, and she has helped me to keep going (I hope she feels the same way), so I couldn’t imagine losing her… if I did, I think I would feel as though I’d lost a big part of my soul. :frowning:

I know that death is a part of life, so I know that it is always something to think about and keep in mind, though I do not fear it as much as I used to, but I think losing her in that way would be easier (though by no means easy) to cope with than our relationship coming to an end… so I can’t really imagine that right now, and would rather not, as that would be worrying. :neutral_face:

I know that marriage will not be all roses and sunshine. I know it will be hard. But I want to go into it with commitment in my heart and my mind.

Sherman, I agree with you that marriage (or any human relationship, really) is something fragile, and therefore should be protected and handled with care. And I agree that teaching that divorce is sinful in all cases and marriage can never be broken in good conscience is just wrong, not to mention unkind and oppressive.

But, on the other hand, commitment is, as always, an important issue.
Like my friend Charles Slagle says ‘love is commitment’.
My belief is that if two people are committed to loving one another and staying together, and are willing to do anything and everything to make things work, and if they are both leaning on God for support, then they’ll make it. But then of course, this is the ideal. Love is a two way street, and if only one and not the other or neither are committed and asking for and are open to help, then not much could be done unless that changed. :neutral_face:
And, of course, I know character and maturity have a lot to do with our ability to remain committed. Which is why I pray that Kaylyn and I will both grow in character and maturity together as time goes on, and our commitment to one another will grow and be strengthened as well, and that God would help us to love each other and stay together for the long haul…

I would appreciate your prayers in this as well, Sherman (and you too Cindy, and anyone else reading this).
I need all the support I can get. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you all, and peace :slight_smile:

Matt

Guess this thread has slowed down a bit, lol :stuck_out_tongue:

“The church, in teaching that marriage is indissoluble has set up people to fail in marriage because they often 1) do not focus on finding a mate with character, 2) do not realize that there are reasonable expectations within marriage, 3) do not take the necessary steps to lay a solid foundation for their marriage, feed their marriage to keep it healthy, go to the doctor when it is sick, or guard their marriage. The traditional doctrine of indissolubility sets people up to fail at marriage because they do not recognize the reality that their marriage is breakable.”

Sherman -

I want to thank you for this. My Christian upbringing contributed to my divorce in exactly this way - never even considering divorce as an option, I never made my “reasonable expectations” a bottom-line (since I didn’t feel like I could “insist” on certain fundamental behaviors, like respect). Notwithstanding Pilgrims argument, I actually reached a point where I felt that for the sake of my two sons, I couldn’t remain in a relationship where there was so much disrespect. I created that situation by not, early on, communicating that certain behavior was intolerable. And let’s be clear that “intolerable” means…“will not go on” which means if it continues, we’re done. After 20 years of appeasement (because divorce wasn’t an option, so nothing was “intolerable”) it became painfully, soul-rendingly clear that divorce was unavoidable.

Had I gone into the marriage more ready to fight for my “bottom line” (and everyone has one in a relationship), my marriage would have had a chance perhaps. But the “sanctity” of marriage can interfere with its proper function.

Yes, not only is it important to have healthy personal boundaries within any relationship, especially within marriage, it is important to recognize and continue to meet the primary needs that such relationships/marriages were meant to fulfill. The primary need addressed by marriage is “aloneness”. Whether one takes the Genesis creation account as literal or as an inspired drama allegory, a primary message is that marriage was instituted to meet the basic human need of companionship. Frankly, many couples get married as best of friends and then over time forget to be friends and forget to seek to meet the companionship needs of their partner. They grow apart instead of growing closer together. And one morning one or both wake up and realize that they no longer like eachother, no longer enjoy spending time with eachother.

The basic needs that are to be met in marriage are companionship (security and belonging), physical intimacy, and procreation. Most people have these pschological/physical/chemical needs and expect them to be met throught their marriage. When these are not met it sets up the person to seek another relationship for those needs to be met. And the needs of men tend to be different than the needs of women, generally speaking. For example, men tend to need respect and a regular outlet for their sexual needs. Woment tend to need love, security, and an outlet for their emotional needs.

By failing to recognize the purposes of marriage and failing to meet these needs for eachother, it sets the couple up for failure and ultimately divorce. The church, in teaching that divorce is not an option, that marriage is indissoluble focuses on forbidding divorce rather than helping people have healthy fulfilling marriages, or at least that’s been my experience.

Now please don’t misunderstand me, I am NOT saying or implying that marriages should be cast aside just because a person’s needs or wants are not being met. But I am saying that many marriages do end in divorce because of one spouse failing to recognize and meet the needs of the other. To me, forbidding divorce is like forbidding someone to die; it’s useless and powerless. It would be much better to teach the person how to have healthy habits and to take necessary steps to protect one’s life.