The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Satan, a person or a personification?

More specifically, the serpent in Genesis. :slight_smile:

Because Paul considered satan the prince of the power of the air, ruler of hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms, the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience, I have to conclude that there is a hostile entity of a personal nature, a parrallel perhaps of Michael or Gabriel, but not some omnipresent evil, but rather an instigator, accuser, troublemaker, organizer, accuser, confusor, enflamer of the carnal impulses of mankind, such as the lust of the eyes the lust of the flesh, the pride of life- the lusts of the flesh and the pleasures of the mind.

if we consider that Paul was responding in some primitive way to describe psychological and spiritual principles that were beyond his ability to understand, that we now having the benefit of time and education or whatever, it certainly diminishes what he represented himself as- one who had the full counsel of God, the mind of Christ, a wise master builder. I think Paul was a foundation stone and way ahead of us in every way.

For me if Satan is not a person, being, entity- renders parts of the scripture as myth, for instance the mount of temptation, a clearly personal interaction occuring in the spirit between Jesus and the devil. Even if one was to say the mount of temptation was a vision, it isnt narrated that way.

it also calls into question (as i see it) the veracity of the narrative and the narrators(holy men moved of God-peter) and leads us into this opinion that the scriptures are more a composite of the mythological understanding bearing these ancient wisdoms about God that we can interpret as opposed to no scripture is given to any mans personal interpretation(again peter)

It also places the gospels in a mythological fog- this is just my opinion, because their is no place in the word where there is any indication that these miraculous and supernatural interactions with spirits or demons and the devil himself- even Jesus speaking about the fire prepared for the devil and his angels in Mt 25.

Imo it is a person, but not a human person, a celestial being, who exists more in the tone of the scriptural narrative, which i take at face value. To me this is different than the detailed speculative mythology that a lot of folks have created from interpretations of prophecies like the one agaisnt the king of Tyre, some of which may be true, or not- they are not directly spoken but are interpretations.

Imo it is a person, but not a human person, a celestial being, who exists more in the tone of the scriptural narrative, which i take at face value. To me this is different than the detailed speculative mythology that a lot of folks have created from interpretations of prophecies like the one agaisnt the king of Tyre, some of which may be true, or not- they are not directly spoken but are interpretations

Yes, Jesus certainly thought that Satan was a being so if Jesus was wrong about this, what else was he wrong about. Also it really isn’t so airtight that the so called Lucifer chapters in Isaiah and Ezekial are really about Satan.

I’ve only skimmed this long thread, and so perhaps someone may have brought up this question before:

If Satan is not a person, then who tempted Jesus in the desert? I don’t see how a personification could tempt anyone. Jesus didn’t have evil within Himself, and so what was the source of the temptation while He was in the desert?

George MacDonald answered that, I believe. He was tempted not by evil, but a form of less good. He covers in in his Unspoken Sermons. As to whether he states the devil is a personal being or not, it doesn’t really matter in my opinion. The point is, Jesus was tempted by less forms of good. The Bible also said that Jesus had to ‘learn obedience’ so the theory of no evil being in him doesn’t necessarily mean that he wasn’t tempted to do evil, just that he had never committed evil.

I agree that Jesus was first tempted with less good. I don’t see what that has to do with personification or person/being. Also, for Jesus by His own standard, (to him whom much is given much is required) “less good” would be “missing the mark” which i s the definition of sin as I understand it- also seeing that “evil” begins when we withdraw from the intentions of God- first for our own good because we can(turn these stones into bread), then because we want a little glory and to prove we are somebody in God(If you are the son of God throw yourself down), and finally, to withdraw from the purpose of God (sacrificial love) for the purpose of obtaining dominion( bow down to me and i will give you the thrones of the world)- the last of which, if not the first two- is surely a temptation to evil- idolatry and servitude to a false spirit in exchange for dominion over men and the glories of earthly power- a certain evil, way past “less good” imo, whether or not one regards satan as a personification or a being.

James 3:14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly(turn these stones into bread), sensual(throw your self down from this pinnacle), demonic(bow down to me and I will give you dominion).

To me Satan is created and is evil. It is debatable how he became evil but in Jude he fought with Michael the Angel over Moses buried body and so again we have a specific instance in which Satan is depicted as a being of some sort.

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I do.

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I think there was a rebel angel, and there was war, and there was a situation with Michael, but I am inclined to believe that Christ in the wilderness tempted was wrestling with the things we humans wrestle with. It was metaphoric. That is the adversary, and Christ as man did have to deal with the satan in that way. It is ultimately ourselves and our free choice and it is the very thing that has plagued man since Adam’s time. It is also the reason why God had to have a covenant with himself in Abrahams time, he wanted the covenant to be valid. There was no one but God himself to validate the covenant.

Christ did wrestle with the things we wrestle with in the wilderness but he had a running conversation with Satan. Satan even misapplied (Psalm 91) scripture and Jesus called him out on it.

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True, it says that. Some 20 years ago I was involved in a group that one of the guys that came from time to time actually went on a 40 day fast. He never spoke about it to the group but my close friend at the time was also close to this fellow, and relayed some of what went on to me.

Apparently, the first few weeks went relatively uneventful and then it got harder. By the end of the 4th week the guy was dreaming very weird dreams about food and was actually hallucinating, and quite vividly from my friends account. He had a preoccupation with food which is one of the findings of the Minnesota Starvation Experiments, and of the experiments it said " Deprivation itself drove these men to “the threshold of insanity.”

So having said that and believing that Christ was human, it is possible that the exchange was metaphorical. But that is just a thought.

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Most definitely agree. Fasting is such a huge discipline builder, precisely because we are denying a very primal “need”. Food deprivation, is very hard on the mind, and the Minnesota Starvation experiment by Ancel Keys is the #1 resource in how people respond to hunger and rehabilitate to health.

Anything is possible but then we could speculate that the resurrection was metaphorical too? Also Jesus referred to Satan several times like he is "the Father of lies"or “I saw Satan falling from the sky” or “Your Father the Devil” etc.

The Old Testament clearly indicates that David sinned in numbering Israel.(Why that was sin, I’ll probably never know). But the question is: who incited David to sin in this way? Here is the account in 2 Samuel:

Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.”

But David’s heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have done very foolishly.” (2 Sam 24:1,2,10 ESV)

And here is the account, written centuries later in 1 Chronicles:

Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.”

But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel. And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.” (I Chron 21:1,2,7,8 ESV)

So if Satan is “metaphorical” does this mean that the Satan in 1 Chronicles was actually God? (as in 2 Samuel)

Or could it be that God is “metaphorical” too?

Thank you qaz, for sharing your understanding of the matter.

The definition or importance of the resurrection has nothing to do with the logic of the idea of calling a being like Satan metaphorical, who is referenced numerous times by Jesus and Peter and Paul and Jude and John and other bible authors. These are the same bible authors we rely on for the accounts of the resurrection.

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I wonder how those that deny Satan as a person, an intelligent being created by Love Omnipotent, explain the “very personal” passages away.

In any case, does it effect any significant doctrines or beliefs either way, whether one believes he is a person or a thing?

And as far as practical Christian living is concerned, what does it matter whether the Devil is a person or is a personification? Either way he/it is to be resisted:

James 4:6 But He gives us more grace. This is why it says: “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Ephesians 4:27
and do not give the devil a foothold.

Ephesians 6:11
Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes.

Ephesians 6:13
Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

1 Peter 5:9
Resist him, standing firm in your faith and in the knowledge that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering.

My guess is that they do it by classifying these passages as personifications of evil.

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If i recall the temptation of Jesus in Matthew 4 has been explained as coming from His own sin nature rather than a real being called the Devil. Of course that is heresy.

Matthew 4: 1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted a by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ b

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,

and they will lift you up in their hands,

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ c

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ d

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ e

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of this world but Jesus didn’t challenge the fact that Satan could do that, which is interesting. It suggests Satan is the god of this world which would answer a lot of questions.

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