Suicide and Christian Universalism

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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby JasonPratt » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:16 pm

People who commit suicide out of mental illness aren't murdering themselves, impenitently or otherwise.

Whether she has other sins she is impenitent of is another question.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sherman » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:07 am

If a Christian dies with sin in their lives, are they then not saved? What if a Christian told a lie right before they died, or was committing adultery? Suicide, though tragic, is usually the only excape people see for the pain they are in. In judgment we will give an account for our lives before the Righteous Judge Our Father; and God will administer punishment as needed to effect reconciliation, healing, and deliverance. So God in grace, mercy, and truth will judge us all, whether we commit suicide with a gun or by eating too much and not exercising (obesity).
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:56 am

its a valid question but to my mind a large percentage of suicide ''victims'' are just that , some of us will never have any idea of just how much unbearable pain they go through !, I tend to think most of them will go through those gates before a good number of professing Christians do .goodness GOD really is just !
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby corpselight » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:23 am

if you can't cope with life, then that means things have gotten really bad for you. if God, the Author of our salvation and the very true Being of Love, can not show the compassion we would show in those circumstances, then we've signed up to the wrong faith...
contrary to that, God IS love, and God will not be horrible to someone who couldn't handle something. He will gather them into His arms and welcome them into His kingdom.

i don't know about honour suicides, like Kamakazi pilots or spies. suicide bombers...well they're brainwashed.
but i could imagine God being fair. chances are i will die with some sin unconfessed and possibly unrecognised, and i fully expect God to be as good as His word and save me.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:47 am

it goes without saying that the likes of suicide bombers are on the opposite end of the spectrum for me ! that being said I once posted a vid. on facebook of a young ''Palestinian'' [there's a modern myth] who was on the Israeli boarder with a vest full of tnt
I remember looking at the intensity of his anguish it was almost unbearable and feeling for him [not the evil men who sent him and had brainwashed him all his life ] the look almost said ''what the heck I live in a world of horror and pain I may as well end it all''
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby WE ARE ALL BROTHERS » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:58 pm

stuartd wrote:it goes without saying that the likes of suicide bombers are on the opposite end of the spectrum for me ! that being said I once posted a vid. on facebook of a young ''Palestinian'' [there's a modern myth] who was on the Israeli boarder with a vest full of tnt
I remember looking at the intensity of his anguish it was almost unbearable and feeling for him [not the evil men who sent him and had brainwashed him all his life ] the look almost said ''what the heck I live in a world of horror and pain I may as well end it all''

What's the modern myth?
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:22 am

''palestine'' it doesn't exist
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby WE ARE ALL BROTHERS » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:44 am

stuartd wrote:''palestine'' it doesn't exist

That is true -- but then, there does remain some part of it? The West Bank and the Gaza strip are still mostly Palestinian :cry:
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby corpselight » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:06 am

modern myths are so dull.
back in the olden times, they had PROPER myths, with pegasi, dragons, giants, centaurs and mermaids!
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:06 pm

corpselight wrote:modern myths are so dull.
back in the olden times, they had PROPER myths, with pegasi, dragons, giants, centaurs and mermaids!


like button !

I hate to burst your bubble we are all brothers but those who call them selves ''Palestinians'' did so after a certain period of time to advance ''the cause'' [the total destruction of Israel] they are mostly Jordanians and other Arabs who moved there from neighbouring Arab countries
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby WE ARE ALL BROTHERS » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:54 pm

stuartd wrote:
corpselight wrote:modern myths are so dull.
back in the olden times, they had PROPER myths, with pegasi, dragons, giants, centaurs and mermaids!


like button !

I hate to burst your bubble we are all brothers but those who call them selves ''Palestinians'' did so after a certain period of time to advance ''the cause'' [the total destruction of Israel] they are mostly Jordanians and other Arabs who moved there from neighbouring Arab countries


Oh, I see where this is going ;) Zionism is profoundly biblical and thoroughly Christian, huh? ... I imagine that we're going to disagree on this discussion, so let's not hijack this thread ;)
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Alex Smith » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:18 pm

Yes please don't have an Israel vs Palestine debate here, as I don't think it would be edifying to anyone.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sword of ManticorE » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:35 am

I dont know my brothers and sisters, but I am going through a painful torment at this moment. My wife who is also a christian who believes in universal salvation told me last Saturday that she lost her love for me as her husband. We are still together because we have a 3 year old beautiful boy. She says she still loves me as a spritual brothert, but cannot find a love for me as her husband. I do not blame her, as I have been pretty hard on her for the last six months due to worldly problems and work. To say I have not thought about suicide would be a lie. I have, as the pain I feel inside is too much to bear. I know God hears my prayers, I put all my hope in Him to help our marriage. God be with you all.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby WE ARE ALL BROTHERS » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:55 am

Sword of ManticorE wrote:I dont know my brothers and sisters, but I am going through a painful torment at this moment. My wife who is also a christian who believes in universal salvation told me last Saturday that she lost her love for me as her husband. We are still together because we have a 3 year old beautiful boy. She says she still loves me as a spritual brothert, but cannot find a love for me as her husband. I do not blame her, as I have been pretty hard on her for the last six months due to worldly problems and work. To say I have not thought about suicide would be a lie. I have, as the pain I feel inside is too much to bear. I know God hears my prayers, I put all my hope in Him to help our marriage. God be with you all.

I am so sorry to hear this brother. I will pray for you right now, and will endeavour to keep you both (and your son) in my prayer. Yes, be assured that God does answer our petitions in due time. I have seen two seemingly hopeless marriages restored by fervent prayer just this year -- one of these just this last week. May God grant you the strength you need.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby SLJ » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:04 am

Sword,
You have my prayers! I am convinced that God will bring reconciliation of all -- to Himself and to each other.

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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sword of ManticorE » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:30 am

Thank you for your prayers, and thank you for not judging me. I already feel the strength from God and His assurance and faith in me. Some would say that suicide is a cowards way out. Let me assure you, it is not. I have been on this road before, and with God's help, He has pulled me through everytime. Again thank you and God be with you all.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sword of ManticorE » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:30 am

Thank you for your prayers, and thank you for not judging me. I already feel the strength from God and His assurance and faith in me. Some would say that suicide is a cowards way out. Let me assure you, it is not. I have been on this road before, and with God's help, He has pulled me through everytime. Again thank you and God be with you all.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby redhotmagma » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:00 am

Also praying for you Sword.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sazag84 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:12 am

I am sorry to hear of this. I will pray for you and your family.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:28 pm

sorry to hear this ''sword'' I shall pray for you also , may I ask if she is open to patching things up [so to speak ?] would she be willing to go and get some counselling ? please don't end your life ! ,thank-you for your brutal honesty.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sword of ManticorE » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:31 am

stuartd wrote:sorry to hear this ''sword'' I shall pray for you also , may I ask if she is open to patching things up [so to speak ?] would she be willing to go and get some counselling ? please don't end your life ! ,thank-you for your brutal honesty.

Brother, I will not take my life as it is a presciouse gift given to me to know Him more. Because of all your prayers, my wife and I are still together and are building our relationship with God and our own marriage as well. Thank you all again for your prayers. May God be with you all always.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby priegel » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:22 pm

I am new here and have not introduced myself before this thread. I am Phillip in AZ and have been a lost prodigal for years trying to find my way back. I find CU to be hopeful compered to my believe right/work behave past. I just lost my mind at about 26 and am now in lifes darkest times at a56. I am daily suicidal from 2 back surgeries and 24/7 pain, recently lost my Mom/only relative, alone, and lost career. I just don't want to be here at least in a human way anymore . I am only here now because I am afraid of hell if I take my life. I try to focus on loving God but my brain only feels this pain in my soul and body. I would rather be in the light of God. I don't know how long I can hang on. appetite is going, caring for daily needs gets harder, lost friends, no physical activity (2 years ago I swam, danced, biked, worked etc, all gone now). I don't sleep and pills are my primary supplements. Anyway, I hope if I go that God, because of his death on the cross will remember what pain was like and that even he could not endure it for too long. I have been at this 2 .5 years now and am almost done. Drs now are recommending a 3rd procedure to correct the last botch job the MD did. what a mess. I am so tired of people who say we don't have a right to choose when we go. It seems God/life/nature can choose to beat us up all it wants but if we choose to leave then "we" are the ones with the problem. A lot like the idea of when good things happen we are blessed by god but when bad happens its "nature" or "just the way it is", or my favorite "it is what it is". Thanks for listening.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:16 am

Sorry to hear about your problems, Priegel. I should note that this is an old thread where the originator of the thread asked for all his or her posts to be deleted (or manually did so), and consequently there are parts missing for context.

I suppose in a way that's an analogy for suicide, too: parts will be missing in the life of other people for context. :)

I'm not as hard against suicide or even euthanasia as some other people are, but I'm very sensitive to people thinking I (or the forum or universalists generally) am giving people permission to commit suicide or otherwise persuading them to do so. So let me be clear: I'm not doing that.

But as long as they aren't dodging out of personal responsibilities in this life by doing so, neither do I condemn other people for doing so. I know pain drives people crazy and can easily erode our will to live.

But what we need is more life, not more death, in our lives. I hope you'll strive for that instead and keep doing so.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Geoffrey » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:40 am

priegel wrote:I am new here and have not introduced myself before this thread. I am Phillip in AZ and have been a lost prodigal for years trying to find my way back. I find CU to be hopeful compered to my believe right/work behave past. I just lost my mind at about 26 and am now in lifes darkest times at a56. I am daily suicidal from 2 back surgeries and 24/7 pain, recently lost my Mom/only relative, alone, and lost career. I just don't want to be here at least in a human way anymore . I am only here now because I am afraid of hell if I take my life. I try to focus on loving God but my brain only feels this pain in my soul and body. I would rather be in the light of God. I don't know how long I can hang on. appetite is going, caring for daily needs gets harder, lost friends, no physical activity (2 years ago I swam, danced, biked, worked etc, all gone now). I don't sleep and pills are my primary supplements. Anyway, I hope if I go that God, because of his death on the cross will remember what pain was like and that even he could not endure it for too long. I have been at this 2 .5 years now and am almost done. Drs now are recommending a 3rd procedure to correct the last botch job the MD did. what a mess. I am so tired of people who say we don't have a right to choose when we go. It seems God/life/nature can choose to beat us up all it wants but if we choose to leave then "we" are the ones with the problem. A lot like the idea of when good things happen we are blessed by god but when bad happens its "nature" or "just the way it is", or my favorite "it is what it is". Thanks for listening.


Phillip, welcome.

About 20 years ago I spent several hours over the course of several days in the company of a Jewish pain-management physician. (I wish I could remember his name.) In other words, his medical specialty is managing pain. He was quite angry at the state of pain management in the United States. He said he couldn't count the number of poor sufferers that he encountered who had gone through months or even years of unnecessary suffering--all because of the incompetence of the ones supposedly caring for them. He said that in all his years of practice he had never, not even once, encountered a case that he couldn't fix. Every single one of his patients either had his pain eliminated or reduced to an amount for which the patient said, "I can live a happy and meaningful life with this amount of pain." He said the spectre of unmanageable pain is a tale told by incompetents in the medical field or by people eager to kill.

Let me hasten to add that this physician did not present himself as some sort of miracle-worker or as some sort of fringe figure with knowledge and techniques known only to him. No. He said that any properly-trained pain-management physician can get any pain under control. The problem is that most hospitals do not think it is very important to manage pain. Doing so is way down on their list of priorities. The "pain management" that sufferers receive is conducted by someone who has not specialized in the field, but rather took a single one-semester class in medical school 15 years ago in order to fill-up his required credit hours. These Dr. Bozos then incompetently treat pain, and then say or imply that that's as good as modern medicine gets.

My physician acquaintance further emphasized that (wonder of wonders!) people with untreated pain tend to get depressed and suicidal. He got so angry with those voices who say that the answer to these suffering, depressed, and suicidal people is to kill them. ("Those are my patients they're wanting to kill!") No. The answer is to get their pain under control, which typically ends the depression and suicidal thoughts. (And in those minority of cases in which depression and suicidal thoughts persist, competent counselling [not capital punishment] is indicated.)

Since my physician acquaintance spent years studying pain management and further years managing pain, I can only accept what he says on authority. Who would better know about pain management than someone who has spent a lifetime studying it and applying it?

I write all of this to give you heart. If you are in unmanaged pain, then you are in the care of incompetents. You have not reached the limit of modern medicine. You have instead met the Peter Principle personified. I hope and pray you can get the care you need from a competent pain management specialist.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:06 pm

Geoffrey wrote:About 20 years ago I spent several hours over the course of several days in the company of a Jewish pain-management physician. (I wish I could remember his name.) In other words, his medical specialty is managing pain. He was quite angry at the state of pain management in the United States. He said he couldn't count the number of poor sufferers that he encountered who had gone through months or even years of unnecessary suffering--all because of the incompetence of the ones supposedly caring for them. He said that in all his years of practice he had never, not even once, encountered a case that he couldn't fix. Every single one of his patients either had his pain eliminated or reduced to an amount for which the patient said, "I can live a happy and meaningful life with this amount of pain." He said the spectre of unmanageable pain is a tale told by incompetents in the medical field or by people eager to kill.

Let me hasten to add that this physician did not present himself as some sort of miracle-worker or as some sort of fringe figure with knowledge and techniques known only to him. No. He said that any properly-trained pain-management physician can get any pain under control. The problem is that most hospitals do not think it is very important to manage pain. Doing so is way down on their list of priorities. The "pain management" that sufferers receive is conducted by someone who has not specialized in the field, but rather took a single one-semester class in medical school 15 years ago in order to fill-up his required credit hours. These Dr. Bozos then incompetently treat pain, and then say or imply that that's as good as modern medicine gets.

My physician acquaintance further emphasized that (wonder of wonders!) people with untreated pain tend to get depressed and suicidal. He got so angry with those voices who say that the answer to these suffering, depressed, and suicidal people is to kill them. ("Those are my patients they're wanting to kill!") No. The answer is to get their pain under control, which typically ends the depression and suicidal thoughts. (And in those minority of cases in which depression and suicidal thoughts persist, competent counselling [not capital punishment] is indicated.)

Since my physician acquaintance spent years studying pain management and further years managing pain, I can only accept what he says on authority. Who would better know about pain management than someone who has spent a lifetime studying it and applying it?

I write all of this to give you heart. If you are in unmanaged pain, then you are in the care of incompetents. You have not reached the limit of modern medicine. You have instead met the Peter Principle personified. I hope and pray you can get the care you need from a competent pain management specialist.


Nice post, Geoffrey

You know what's interesting about pain management and modern medicine? When my 92.5 year old mom was in a coma, the doctors didn't prescribe the latest pain medications. They prescribed morphine, And its history in medicine, is probably more than a 100 years old. It's tried, but true.

Meanwhile, some folks find help with pain via acupuncture - which is hundreds of years old. Or the more modern and controversial, US medical cannabis movement. Done under a physician's direction and legal at the state level.

The point is that doctors and modern medicine, don't have all the answers. Or you might have to seek various physicians, in order to find one that has the right answer.

Matthew 7:7 - New International Version - "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.


Meanwhile, here's the Protestant site Got Questions answer at:


Answer: It is a sad fact that some Christians have committed suicide. Adding to the tragedy is the false teaching that committing suicide automatically consigns one to hell. Many believe that a Christian who commits suicide will not be saved. This teaching is not supported in the Bible.

Scripture teaches that, from the moment we truly believe in Christ, we are guaranteed eternal life (John 3:16). According to the Bible, Christians can know beyond any doubt that they possess eternal life (1 John 5:13). Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38–39). No “created thing” can separate a Christian from God’s love, and even a Christian who commits suicide is a “created thing”; therefore, not even suicide can separate a Christian from God’s love. Jesus died for all of our sins, and if a true Christian, in a time of spiritual attack and weakness, commits suicide, his sin is still covered by the blood of Christ.

According to the Bible, suicide is not what determines whether a person gains entrance into heaven. If an unsaved person commits suicide, he has done nothing but “expedite” his journey to hell. However, that person who committed suicide will ultimately be in hell for rejecting salvation through Christ, not because he committed suicide (see John 3:18). We should also point out, however, that no one truly knows what was happening in a person’s heart the moment he or she died. Some people have “deathbed conversions” and accept Christ in the moments before death. It is possible that a person who commits suicide could have a last-second change of heart and cry out for God’s mercy. We leave such judgments to God (1 Samuel 16:7).

The suicide of a believer is evidence that anyone can struggle with despair and that our enemy, Satan, is “a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44). Suicide is still a serious sin against God. According to the Bible, suicide is murder; it is always wrong. Christians are called to live their lives for God, and the decision of when to die is God’s and God’s alone.

May God grant grace and the psalmist’s perspective to each one who is facing trials today: “Why, my soul, are you downcast? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God” (Psalm 43:5).
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby priegel » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:28 am

thank you for your posts. I am under "pain management" but it is patches and pills, I have screws in my back and they may need to be removed but I have no real guarantees it will work. I am tired, spent , insane almost with it all over the last years. I have seeked and sought but I sense no guidance from God in all of this. From my apostate years I really am not sure about who I am in God except that i believe in his existence but have no idea how he helps us when we really screw ourselves up by our own decisions. this one has taken my life away and I may finally really take it because it is all really becoming unbearable. The loss of friends, job and purpose, bodily strength, love, the isolation is all human depravation to a point I didn't think existed except in POW camps. The body is a cage/cell contained within the prison of the home. I have to decide soon whether to go ahead with this surgery or not. Waiting on a fusion to fuse when the hardware is not real strong is the man issue. Docs agree that the old screws need to be removed and stronger ones with rods put in. they disagree as to when , 2 say now, 2 others say wait 3-6 months but I don't know if I can. I have meds and other means to end it, mine would not be case of a moment of insanity but a clear choice to leave the body to get out of the painful cage, the way a raped child would run away from home to get away from the monster dad. My spine has been raped and I let it happen. and in the same way a child that has had that happen and knows they are permanently changed and damaged so am I. The aching and stabbing is torment. I actually kind of know what ECT feels like now in an earthly way. choices that led to this causing permanent unreversible damage and pain, knowing you allowed it and it can't be taken back. I can't imagine an eternal spiritual version of this. I can only pray that Gods mercy triumphs over judgement as I feel I have paid in my body for my choices and that Christ has suffered for and with me in this and that the Father accepts the Sons sacrifice and intercessions for me no matter what. I am human and am being broken in body mind and spirit. Alone and without love in my life it is just too sad to bear. We tend to think of heaven and hell as places we go according to what we believe and do (or not). When I believe it is about just being with and knowing God, knowing and getting nearer to Him, that is the heaven. At this point i can't think of anywhere Id rather be. I am so afraid of facing life this way, Living more years like this with no reprieve. It is not sane or humane for us to do so. We put down pets for less and consider it kindness. I am also afraid of facing God for such an act. I know I have value to the world but it is slowly being eroded away as I become less able to give it, pain erodes the value of a life in every way, just as time and the elements erode valuable things that are naked to them, finally they end up worthless, skeletons of what they once were. I see this in me every time I look at myself. Its good to be here, framing my issues in a spiritual way. My fire right now is purifying me, how much I can endure before burning up we shall see. Love to all Phil.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby priegel » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:46 am

Thanks Jason, to be as clear as you, I am not looking for any such permission or support from the forum for such an act. We are each responsible to God and others for our actions . I only am hoping for open dialogue and online companionship as I go thru this horrible period of my life. this is in a way easier as no one in the forum has to see me , the anonymity is a blessing in a weird way. Only I know what Im experiencing so only I can make these ugly choices. If the discussion gets to uncomfortable then I will not be hurt or offended if my posts are not approved. but I know that others are facing similar issues, so maybe someone else will be helped. If the thread is removed I would understand, Thanks again. Phil
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby JasonPratt » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:28 am

I don't think there will be any problem about post-approval (and we haven't deleted this thread yet, although a prior member deleted his or her start to the thread and some discussion).

Relatedly, though: all new members are sent by the forum engine to a spamcatcher for their first three or four or five posts, as a standard operating procedure. An admin or mod checks the spamcatcher on a semi-regular basis (I try to do so once a day, but sometimes miss especially on the weekends), and regardless of the topic as long as the new member seems to be something other than a philosophical zombie (i.e. an internet bot ;) ) or a live spammer, then we let them through. After enough posts the system will start letting the new member through automatically henceforth.

It's just a way to keep out bots or people trying to sell shoes or essays or warcraft gold (haven't seen one of those in a while).
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:33 pm

Jason said:
But what we need is more life, not more death, in our lives. I hope you'll strive for that instead and keep doing so.


That's very good council, and I pray the same. Thanks Jason :D
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby AndreLinoge » Sat May 06, 2017 8:29 pm

I think about this everyday, and have for the last three years. I have chronic fatigue due to sleeping problems (diagnosed as such anyway). I lost my job and find it incredibly hard to do anything. I used feel really good, though my life wasn't stellar. I could live with that though. Now it's just fatigue, day in and out. The line between doing it and not doing it is really just a line. If I stop wearing my seat-belt because the thought of doing things to preserve my life are obscene to me, then that is a form of suicide. Jesus said that if you hate your brother then you are as guilty of killing him in cold blood as if you really did it. But what of one who hates his own life? Isn't he then guilty of suicide?

I've already done the deed; my body is waiting to catch up.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby davo » Sat May 06, 2017 8:54 pm

G’day Andre… if you haven’t done so already it could help for you to chat with someone on a 24hr freecall ‘suicide helpline’… IOW get some help/support around you.

No-one has magic answers to feeling better for when you’re feeling crap, BUT talking stuff out (as opposed to hanging onto it and ruminating) with someone with a caring listing ear can do the world of good in helping to lower levels of dangerous or potentially dangerous perturbation.

You owe it to yourself mate!
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby AndreLinoge » Mon May 08, 2017 11:28 pm

davo wrote:G’day Andre… if you haven’t done so already it could help for you to chat with someone on a 24hr freecall ‘suicide helpline’… IOW get some help/support around you.

No-one has magic answers to feeling better for when you’re feeling crap, BUT talking stuff out (as opposed to hanging onto it and ruminating) with someone with a caring listing ear can do the world of good in helping to lower levels of dangerous or potentially dangerous perturbation.

You owe it to yourself mate!


Suicide help lines are worthless. Plus there's the added bonus of maybe having cops making a visit*. My trouble is my ailment; if I would wake up everyday, or even most days feeling rested, I would be remarkably undepressed. Contrary to what our optimistic culture teaches, some things are hopless; some things can't be fixed. And sometimes suicide is the only option.

*I did call a hotline once and she threatened to send cops.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue May 09, 2017 3:40 am

AndreLinoge wrote:
Suicide help lines are worthless. Plus there's the added bonus of maybe having cops making a visit*. My trouble is my ailment; if I would wake up everyday, or even most days feeling rested, I would be remarkably undepressed. Contrary to what our optimistic culture teaches, some things are hopless; some things can't be fixed. And sometimes suicide is the only option.

*I did call a hotline once and she threatened to send cops.


Suicide help lines, are staffed by volunteers. Most volunteers are not professionals. They only talk to folks and guide them to resources. Professionals are licensed medical professionals, therapists, psychologists, and clergy members. That's whom to consult for answers.

Although from my world view...answers can be found via homeopaths, that are also licensed, medical doctors...and the appropriate spiritual healers or spiritual healing groups, if you can find them.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby AndreLinoge » Tue May 09, 2017 9:17 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
AndreLinoge wrote:
Suicide help lines are worthless. Plus there's the added bonus of maybe having cops making a visit*. My trouble is my ailment; if I would wake up everyday, or even most days feeling rested, I would be remarkably undepressed. Contrary to what our optimistic culture teaches, some things are hopless; some things can't be fixed. And sometimes suicide is the only option.

*I did call a hotline once and she threatened to send cops.


Suicide help lines, are staffed by volunteers. Most volunteers are not professionals. They only talk to folks and guide them to resources. Professionals are licensed medical professionals, therapists, psychologists, and clergy members. That's whom to consult for answers.

Although from my world view...answers can be found via homeopaths, that are also licensed, medical doctors...and the appropriate spiritual healers or spiritual healing groups, if you can find them.


I've been through the doctors thing; psychologists and the like can't help me. There is nothing wrong with me psychologically, in fact there is everything right with me. If I was to awaken feeling rested I would be remarkably undepressed. I'm not different from people who live with chronic pain. Quality of life matters, and the quality of mine is awful due to a illness that came on literally overnight. I don't subscribe either to the idea that suffering is a virtue, none of that Viktor Frankl nonsense. I'm tired of being tired everday; nothing in this world is worth the trouble.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed May 10, 2017 3:42 am

AndreLinoge wrote:
I've been through the doctors thing; psychologists and the like can't help me. There is nothing wrong with me psychologically, in fact there is everything right with me. If I was to awaken feeling rested I would be remarkably undepressed. I'm not different from people who live with chronic pain. Quality of life matters, and the quality of mine is awful due to a illness that came on literally overnight. I don't subscribe either to the idea that suffering is a virtue, none of that Viktor Frankl nonsense. I'm tired of being tired everday; nothing in this world is worth the trouble.


I went through a period of my life, where I was searching for something deeper. So I did three avenues of exploration - over the years:

    Let me see what academia has to offer, by taking a bunch of philosophy, literature, creative writing, psychology and theology courses
    Let's see what I can experience experimentally, by hanging out with the Native Americans, Buddhists, Sufis, Folks from the East, and healers
    Let me learn the fruits of homeopathy, by studying with the "experts"

I still have my Christian worldview, which taps into Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic mystical theology, within an Anglican framework.

Now I'm happy I took that lifetime, exploratory journey. Even if now, I find that Holy Fools, P-Zombies, Zombies, Geeks and Nerds, offer me more in company and companionship, than most of humanity :!: :lol:


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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby AndreLinoge » Tue May 23, 2017 3:47 pm

I went through a period of my life, where I was searching for something deeper. So I did three avenues of exploration - over the years:

Let me see what academia has to offer, by taking a bunch of philosophy, literature, creative writing, psychology and theology courses
Let's see what I can experience experimentally, by hanging out with the Native Americans, Buddhists, Sufis, Folks from the East, and healers
Let me learn the fruits of homeopathy, by studying with the "experts"

I still have my Christian worldview, which taps into Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic mystical theology, within an Anglican framework.

Now I'm happy I took that lifetime, exploratory journey. Even if now, I find that Holy Fools, P-Zombies, Zombies, Geeks and Nerds, offer me more in company and companionship, than most of humanity :!: :lol:



All I want out of life is either to wake up rested or its end.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed May 24, 2017 4:54 am

"Bad News: You're not going to fit in with everyone. Good News: The great ones never do."-- Author Unknown


I found today's Catholic refection from Richard Rohr Meditation: Worldview of Abundance - fascinating. Perhaps it might be useful (i.e. see https://cac.org/)?:


Worldview of Abundance
Wednesday, May 24, 2017


The flow of grace through us is largely blocked when we are living inside a worldview of scarcity, a feeling that there’s just not enough: enough of God, enough of me, enough food, enough health care to go around, enough mercy to include and forgive all faults. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the human mind is actually incapable of imagining anything infinite or eternal. So it cannot imagine an infinite love or a God whose “love is everlasting,” as the Psalms continually shout. In other words, the mind of itself cannot know God.

The many “multiplication” of food stories in the Gospels—when Jesus feeds a crowd with very little (for example, Matthew 14:15-21)—clearly exemplify abundance as the foundation of reality. The spiritual point is grace, not some mere physical miracle. Notice in almost every case that the good apostles, who represent our worldview of scarcity, advise Jesus against feeding the crowd: “But how will two fish and five loaves be enough for so many?” Jesus is trying to move them from their worldview of scarcity to one of abundance, but does so with great difficulty. In the end, there is always much food left over, which should communicate the point: Reality, with its inherent overflowing, always has more than enough of itself to give. Just observe the seeds, spermatozoa, and pollen of the natural world.

Our unhealthy economics and politics persist because even Christians largely operate out of a worldview of scarcity: there is not enough land, water, money, and housing for all of us; and in America there are never enough guns to keep us safe. A saint always knows that there is more than enough for our need but never enough for our greed. In the midst of the structural stinginess and over-consumption of our present world, how do we possibly change consciousness and teach the mind to operate from mercy and graciousness? It will always be an uphill battle, and it will always depend upon a foundational and sustained conversion. Even the churches tend to be stingy with grace and mercy, as Pope Francis continues to point out.

Only our personal experiences of unconditional, unearned, and infinite love and forgiveness can move us from the normal worldview of scarcity to the divine world of infinite abundance. That’s when the doors of mercy blow wide open! That’s when we begin to understand the scale-breaking nature of the Gospel. Catholics and much of the world are now stunned to observe a pope who exemplifies this worldview in our time. We can no longer say it is impossible idealism.

Gateway to Silence:
By grace I am saved.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby AndreLinoge » Sun May 28, 2017 10:46 pm

I don't believe that. God is welcome to prove it to me though.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon May 29, 2017 3:51 am

AndreLinoge wrote:I don't believe that. God is welcome to prove it to me though.


When times are hard and you wonder where God is. Remember teachers are always quiet, during the test. - Author Unknown


Much in life is NOT God proving things to us. But us testing the waters - in faith - to see if things are true or not. I'll share here, what I shared with friends and relatives. Regarding a personal healing journey, I have been going through.

One thing I have learned, is the importance of ceremony. It's actually more important than healers, traditional medical doctors and tests, and alternative modalities (homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine).

It's not just any ceremony. But those that are authentic, genuine, and passed down through the generations. Like:

The healing masses of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox
the spiritual ceremonies, of the Native Americans
The Vedic file ceremonies

The ceremonies can add, the element of prayer. And call on the spirits (in Native American ceremonies), and the saints (in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, healing masses).

And this is perhaps why....the Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing and hearing God speak - that I know...Has a great success rate. His healing is done after the performance, of a healing mass. A ceremony handed down, since the time of Christ (or shortly thereafter).

And some folks do use both traditional ceremonies, passed down through the ages. And also do newer ceremonies. Like I have friends, who are Roman Catholic. Some practice the Japanese ceremony of Johrei. Others practice the healing meditation ceremony, of the Bruno Groening circle of friends. And Black Elk and Fools Crow, have been medicine men, holy people and Roman Catholics

And this is perhaps why....the Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing and hearing God speak - that I know...Has a great success rate. His healing is done after the performance, of a healing mass. A ceremony handed down, since the time of Christ (or shortly thereafter).

Each week, I preform Medicine Man, Russell Four Eagles, grandma's fire ceremony. And the pipe ceremony, that I have learned from:

    Lakota 2 Feathers Medicine Clan and Duke Big Feather
    Ute medicine man Joseph Many Horses

Yes, I have seen the:

    traditional medical doctors, and worked with the pills, exams and medical tests. And I am taking their acid reducer pill
    I have seen the homeopathic doctor and am taking his homeopathic remedies
    I am taking the Ayurvedic tonic Chwawanprash and the Tulsi leaf tea.
    I have taken the herbal teas, given by the medicine man, Russell 4 Eagles.

I don't mind if folks want to give modern medicine the benefit - for example. Even though in the US, the World Health Organization has rated us around #32 - for Quality. With Singapore around #1 and most European countries surpassing us.

If I were to use healers, here are my favorites:

And these groups:

Actually, traditional medicine, spiritual healing, complimentary healing modalities (i.e. homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese medicine), prayer and ceremonies, work on different aspects or levels.

And I know these healers and healing organizations well.

So pick what you wish, to give credit to. I really don't mind. And you can thank either the:

    Medical specialist, making perhaps a million a year
    The homeopath with 3 unpublished homeopathic volumes, of several hundred pages
    The Two Fathers Medicine Clan, Medicine Man Joseph Many Horses, Spiritual leader Joseph Big Feather and medicine man Russell Four eagles

Take your pick. You can read about Chyawanprash at http://bit.ly/2rMzPTz.

Yesterday, I invited my female cousin and her husband to lunch. They are surprised that i am coming out of this crisis - relatively untouched. And they only believe in traditional medicine. I probably have them scratching their heads a bit. Trying to explain my healing progress, in the Newtonian framework of traditional medicine.
Last edited by Holy-Fool-P-Zombie on Mon May 29, 2017 9:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby DaveB » Mon May 29, 2017 5:08 am

Randy, I don't mean to pry - oh for heaven's sake, of course I DO mean to pry :oops: - have you shared or will you share what your (very interesting) healing journey is about?
Sorry if I missed the post(s) where you've already explained this.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon May 29, 2017 5:17 am

DaveB wrote:Randy, I don't mean to pry - oh for heaven's sake, of course I DO mean to pry :oops: - have you shared or will you share what your (very interesting) healing journey is about?
Sorry if I missed the post(s) where you've already explained this.


Sure, Dave. Internal bleeding taking place. Which stopped. And when the GI specialist did his exam, he saw no evidence of it. And low iron count and low red blood cell count. Which was back to normal, after a second blood test - about 2 or 3 weeks afterwards. Then I had the GI specialist's exam (not sure the technical name for it). But it's looking at the upper and lower GI track. The only thing remaining, is what they label Esophagitis and GERD. Which is relatively easy to deal with, from the perspective of things like spiritual healing, homeopathy, Ayurveda and Native American herbal lore. But for the traditional GI specialist, he prescribed a generic acid blocker - which I am taking.

I also have pressure, in the left eye optic nerves. Which no functional cause is found by:

    The ophthalmologist dilating the pupils and conducting an eye exam
    The Optometrist, with his high-tech equipment
    An MRI (before and after contrast done), and finding the MRI normal, by both a radiologist and neurologist
    Oriental pulse dianosis

The optic nerve pressure is a bit tricky. As nothing is found - by traditional medicine. And homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine, that yet to hit on the right remedy. Again, maybe a healing occurred. But I still don't feel the benefits.

Spiritual healing and ceremonies...as well as alternative modalities (like homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine), can take some time. After all, this is not Christ...doing his healing miracles, in the Bible - mind you.

Prescription drugs can be expensive - in the US. Which is why I like the Trump idea...to let Medicare negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies. Another idea in a recent AARP article, is to allow folks to get them from Canada.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby DaveB » Mon May 29, 2017 5:39 am

Thanks. I'm no stranger to esophagitis, though in my case it had progressed to what is called Barrett's Syndrome, a pre-cancerous condition caused by an excess of stomach acid continually flooding the esophagus. 4 ulcers.

The acid reducers, in combination with Gaviscon before bed, are working. Have to get an upper endoscopy every few years though.

Your experience is more interesting!!
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon May 29, 2017 5:43 am

DaveB wrote:Thanks. I'm no stranger to esophagitis, though in my case it had progressed to what is called Barrett's Syndrome, a pre-cancerous condition caused by an excess of stomach acid continually flooding the esophagus. 4 ulcers.

The acid reducers, in combination with Gaviscon before bed, are working. Have to get an upper endoscopy every few years though.

Your experience is more interesting!!


Hi, Dave. Well, my female cousin's husband - has a similar condition. But he needs surgery and gets it done periodically - at Rush. Medicine man Russel Four Eagles, cured his father of cancer, by a mixture of maple syrup and baking soda. Don't ask me why it would work. I have no clue. But he's also having me take that, which will probably prevent any cancer from forming.

A light bulb just turned on. That's why he is having me take it. :idea:

"Patience is not the ability to wait but the ability to keep a good attitude while waiting."-- Joyce Meyer


In fact, let me share medicine man's own cancer treatments in 2013, for educational purposes only. Which one should only use, to compliment what traditional medicine is doing.

One important thing to remember about Cancer is that Anger, rage, resentment, being the victim are all
fertilizer of cancer and help it to grow. So remember to forgive the cancer in a fire ceremony to help release
it. I had to do this all four times I was terminal.

This is how I treated my cancer after I still had it after I finished my chemo and Radiation treatment.

    Chaga: ½ to ¾ cup or ½ bag of Chaga to a gallon of room temperature water let set two days then drink one
    cup a day. Eats Cancer
    Turkey tail: 1/4 tsp. per cup boiling water 1 to 2 times per day. Kills cancer.
    Asparagus: (canned) puree a can of cooked asparagus, take 4 tablespoons night and morning.
    Lemon water: alkalizes, 3 tablespoons of fresh lemon juice
    Dandelion tea: 1/4 tsp. per cup 1 time a day. Anti-oxidant
    Cleavers: immunity builder ¼ to ½ tsp per cup of boiling water 1 time per day. Or you can use Purple Flower
    immunity builder
    Other things that can be added: Apricot kernels Limited amounts 5-6, Vitamin B 17 & C, Soursop and
    Turmeric.
    1 quart pure Grade B Maple syrup & 8 Tablespoons of baking soda: I pre mix the syrup and baking soda
    slowly bring syrup to a boil, mix till dissolved. It will foam up and turn off heat stir for 5-10 additional
    minutes. It takes a minimum of a half hour, and if done right there will be no settling of baking soda. Then
    use straight or put 1 tsp. of this mixture in a glass of Lemon water or everything you drink, I also used it on
    my pancakes and cereal 5-8 times a day, keep unused portion in the refrigerator. This is an alkaline based
    mixture converted

In our bodies we have PH factors of Acid and Alkaline, Cancer needs an Acidic, oxygenated environment
to be able to survive. The Grade B maple syrup and baking soda mixture is target specific so when the
cancer feeds on the sugar in the mixture it is so alkaline that cancer has a hard time, to survive. This is why
we want to limit the sugar intake including too many carbs and no alcohol


Anyway, the Christian site Patheos, had an interesting article today:


Or watch the youtube video, referrenced in the article:




I like the words of Christ, shared in this video. When Christ said, this is why I have come. Reminds me of a saint from the East, I've spend time with. You can get the book on Amazon. This House Is On Fire: The Life of Shri Dhyanyogi by Shri Anandi Ma (Author). People were lined up for healings. And he left shortly afterwards. Saying something to the same effect: "This is not my work".

In other words, both Christ and Shri Dhyanyogi, had other missions. Missions ordained by God. Even though they could both heal, healing was NOT their mission.

Here's what I have shared - in another forum thread here:

Some of my friends and relatives, believe that only modern medicine heals.

That goes against everything I have learned in life. Yes, it has its place. And it has its purpose.

But how did folks get healed, before modern medicine came alone?

They got healed by the herbal traditions of Ayurveda, Traditional Chinese Medicine and the herbal lore, of Native American herbs.

Or they get healed by the proper homeopathic remedy. Where I studied for years, under a master homeopath

Or they get healed by spiritual healing traditions, of the Native Americans. Where I spent years, with the Two Features Medicine Clan. Participating in their ceremonies (i.e. Like the pipe ceremony). I have felt the power myself.

Or by a Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing. Whom I attended his healing masses - for years. Of which I have felt the power, of his touch of the Holy Spirit.

Or doing the healing meditation, of the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends. Where every published healing, is medically verified.

Or with healers and masters, from the East. Where I have hung around such folks, as Dhyan Yogi Madhusudan .And I know many people, healed by mantras he gave them.(see book on Amazon, This House is On Fire by Shri Anandi Ma (Author) or Beyond the Lodge of the Sun: Inner Mysteries of the Native American Way by Chokecherry Gall Eagle. Or the biography of Native American medicine man and Holy person - Fools Crow, written by Lutheran minister Thomas E. Mails (Author).

Actually, if I wasn't doing some of this things, things would have been much worse.

Either the things I have experienced are quite real. Or they are not. There is no in between.

Which means that Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints do not heal. The Charismatic church tradition is a hoax. Mantras from the east and the Native American pipe ceremony - can't heal. All the cases in the Bruno Groening schooling letters are baloney.

I haven't experienced that.

But on the other hand, I have no problems, also working with modern medicine. Especially when it's cost affordable (i.e. like a Medicare advantage plan). Or some country has universal health care.

It ties the healing to Christianity - this way. There is Holy Spirit healing. But the Eastern Orthodox, talk about God's essence and energies. We can't know his essence, but we can know his energies. Tapping into God's energies, is what produces RC and EO saints. But a Sufi master, can tap into the energies, and use them for passing on spiritual transformation - to students. A healer like the German healer, Bruno Groening, can use this energy for healing purposes.And some sacred items, can concentrate this energy. Like an awakened, Native American pipe. Or the Christian Eucharist - when properly concentrated.

Ultimately, God is the healer. But he works through both modern medicine, alternative medicine, prayer and healers.

After all, look at Luke in the bible. He saw all the healing miracles of Christ, Paul and the Apostles. But he was a physician also and never renounced being one.

Well, read what the video and corresponding article has to say - on this subject. Then read what I have said. Then test the waters for yourself. And make up your own mind.

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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby AndreLinoge » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:02 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
AndreLinoge wrote:I don't believe that. God is welcome to prove it to me though.


When times are hard and you wonder where God is. Remember teachers are always quiet, during the test. - Author Unknown


Much in life is NOT God proving things to us. But us testing the waters - in faith - to see if things are true or not. I'll share here, what I shared with friends and relatives. Regarding a personal healing journey, I have been going through.

One thing I have learned, is the importance of ceremony. It's actually more important than healers, traditional medical doctors and tests, and alternative modalities (homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine).

It's not just any ceremony. But those that are authentic, genuine, and passed down through the generations. Like:

The healing masses of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox
the spiritual ceremonies, of the Native Americans
The Vedic file ceremonies

The ceremonies can add, the element of prayer. And call on the spirits (in Native American ceremonies), and the saints (in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, healing masses).

And this is perhaps why....the Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing and hearing God speak - that I know...Has a great success rate. His healing is done after the performance, of a healing mass. A ceremony handed down, since the time of Christ (or shortly thereafter).

And some folks do use both traditional ceremonies, passed down through the ages. And also do newer ceremonies. Like I have friends, who are Roman Catholic. Some practice the Japanese ceremony of Johrei. Others practice the healing meditation ceremony, of the Bruno Groening circle of friends. And Black Elk and Fools Crow, have been medicine men, holy people and Roman Catholics

And this is perhaps why....the Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing and hearing God speak - that I know...Has a great success rate. His healing is done after the performance, of a healing mass. A ceremony handed down, since the time of Christ (or shortly thereafter).

Each week, I preform Medicine Man, Russell Four Eagles, grandma's fire ceremony. And the pipe ceremony, that I have learned from:

    Lakota 2 Feathers Medicine Clan and Duke Big Feather
    Ute medicine man Joseph Many Horses

Yes, I have seen the:

    traditional medical doctors, and worked with the pills, exams and medical tests. And I am taking their acid reducer pill
    I have seen the homeopathic doctor and am taking his homeopathic remedies
    I am taking the Ayurvedic tonic Chwawanprash and the Tulsi leaf tea.
    I have taken the herbal teas, given by the medicine man, Russell 4 Eagles.

I don't mind if folks want to give modern medicine the benefit - for example. Even though in the US, the World Health Organization has rated us around #32 - for Quality. With Singapore around #1 and most European countries surpassing us.

If I were to use healers, here are my favorites:

And these groups:

Actually, traditional medicine, spiritual healing, complimentary healing modalities (i.e. homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese medicine), prayer and ceremonies, work on different aspects or levels.

And I know these healers and healing organizations well.

So pick what you wish, to give credit to. I really don't mind. And you can thank either the:

    Medical specialist, making perhaps a million a year
    The homeopath with 3 unpublished homeopathic volumes, of several hundred pages
    The Two Fathers Medicine Clan, Medicine Man Joseph Many Horses, Spiritual leader Joseph Big Feather and medicine man Russell Four eagles

Take your pick. You can read about Chyawanprash at http://bit.ly/2rMzPTz.

Yesterday, I invited my female cousin and her husband to lunch. They are surprised that i am coming out of this crisis - relatively untouched. And they only believe in traditional medicine. I probably have them scratching their heads a bit. Trying to explain my healing progress, in the Newtonian framework of traditional medicine.


None of that hocus-pocus is going to keep my airway from collapsing at night leaving me exhausted the following day (and the day after that, and the day after that). If alternative medicine worked, it would be called "medicine."
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:00 am

AndreLinoge wrote:
None of that hocus-pocus is going to keep my airway from collapsing at night leaving me exhausted the following day (and the day after that, and the day after that). If alternative medicine worked, it would be called "medicine."


Spiritual healing is NOT "hocus pocus". Even in the Christian RC and EO church traditions, the Christian Charismatic tradition, and the Native American spiritual traditions...They still say that, it is alive and well. But it's up to you, to conduct the search. And discover the truth for yourself. I can only say that it is alive and well - in my experience. And should be used, in conjunction with traditional medicine and the ancient medical traditions.
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
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