Suicide and Christian Universalism

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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby JasonPratt » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:16 pm

People who commit suicide out of mental illness aren't murdering themselves, impenitently or otherwise.

Whether she has other sins she is impenitent of is another question.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sherman » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:07 am

If a Christian dies with sin in their lives, are they then not saved? What if a Christian told a lie right before they died, or was committing adultery? Suicide, though tragic, is usually the only excape people see for the pain they are in. In judgment we will give an account for our lives before the Righteous Judge Our Father; and God will administer punishment as needed to effect reconciliation, healing, and deliverance. So God in grace, mercy, and truth will judge us all, whether we commit suicide with a gun or by eating too much and not exercising (obesity).
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:56 am

its a valid question but to my mind a large percentage of suicide ''victims'' are just that , some of us will never have any idea of just how much unbearable pain they go through !, I tend to think most of them will go through those gates before a good number of professing Christians do .goodness GOD really is just !
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby corpselight » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:23 am

if you can't cope with life, then that means things have gotten really bad for you. if God, the Author of our salvation and the very true Being of Love, can not show the compassion we would show in those circumstances, then we've signed up to the wrong faith...
contrary to that, God IS love, and God will not be horrible to someone who couldn't handle something. He will gather them into His arms and welcome them into His kingdom.

i don't know about honour suicides, like Kamakazi pilots or spies. suicide bombers...well they're brainwashed.
but i could imagine God being fair. chances are i will die with some sin unconfessed and possibly unrecognised, and i fully expect God to be as good as His word and save me.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:47 am

it goes without saying that the likes of suicide bombers are on the opposite end of the spectrum for me ! that being said I once posted a vid. on facebook of a young ''Palestinian'' [there's a modern myth] who was on the Israeli boarder with a vest full of tnt
I remember looking at the intensity of his anguish it was almost unbearable and feeling for him [not the evil men who sent him and had brainwashed him all his life ] the look almost said ''what the heck I live in a world of horror and pain I may as well end it all''
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby WE ARE ALL BROTHERS » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:58 pm

stuartd wrote:it goes without saying that the likes of suicide bombers are on the opposite end of the spectrum for me ! that being said I once posted a vid. on facebook of a young ''Palestinian'' [there's a modern myth] who was on the Israeli boarder with a vest full of tnt
I remember looking at the intensity of his anguish it was almost unbearable and feeling for him [not the evil men who sent him and had brainwashed him all his life ] the look almost said ''what the heck I live in a world of horror and pain I may as well end it all''

What's the modern myth?
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:22 am

''palestine'' it doesn't exist
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby WE ARE ALL BROTHERS » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:44 am

stuartd wrote:''palestine'' it doesn't exist

That is true -- but then, there does remain some part of it? The West Bank and the Gaza strip are still mostly Palestinian :cry:
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby corpselight » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:06 am

modern myths are so dull.
back in the olden times, they had PROPER myths, with pegasi, dragons, giants, centaurs and mermaids!
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:06 pm

corpselight wrote:modern myths are so dull.
back in the olden times, they had PROPER myths, with pegasi, dragons, giants, centaurs and mermaids!


like button !

I hate to burst your bubble we are all brothers but those who call them selves ''Palestinians'' did so after a certain period of time to advance ''the cause'' [the total destruction of Israel] they are mostly Jordanians and other Arabs who moved there from neighbouring Arab countries
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby WE ARE ALL BROTHERS » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:54 pm

stuartd wrote:
corpselight wrote:modern myths are so dull.
back in the olden times, they had PROPER myths, with pegasi, dragons, giants, centaurs and mermaids!


like button !

I hate to burst your bubble we are all brothers but those who call them selves ''Palestinians'' did so after a certain period of time to advance ''the cause'' [the total destruction of Israel] they are mostly Jordanians and other Arabs who moved there from neighbouring Arab countries


Oh, I see where this is going ;) Zionism is profoundly biblical and thoroughly Christian, huh? ... I imagine that we're going to disagree on this discussion, so let's not hijack this thread ;)
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Alex Smith » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:18 pm

Yes please don't have an Israel vs Palestine debate here, as I don't think it would be edifying to anyone.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sword of ManticorE » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:35 am

I dont know my brothers and sisters, but I am going through a painful torment at this moment. My wife who is also a christian who believes in universal salvation told me last Saturday that she lost her love for me as her husband. We are still together because we have a 3 year old beautiful boy. She says she still loves me as a spritual brothert, but cannot find a love for me as her husband. I do not blame her, as I have been pretty hard on her for the last six months due to worldly problems and work. To say I have not thought about suicide would be a lie. I have, as the pain I feel inside is too much to bear. I know God hears my prayers, I put all my hope in Him to help our marriage. God be with you all.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby WE ARE ALL BROTHERS » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:55 am

Sword of ManticorE wrote:I dont know my brothers and sisters, but I am going through a painful torment at this moment. My wife who is also a christian who believes in universal salvation told me last Saturday that she lost her love for me as her husband. We are still together because we have a 3 year old beautiful boy. She says she still loves me as a spritual brothert, but cannot find a love for me as her husband. I do not blame her, as I have been pretty hard on her for the last six months due to worldly problems and work. To say I have not thought about suicide would be a lie. I have, as the pain I feel inside is too much to bear. I know God hears my prayers, I put all my hope in Him to help our marriage. God be with you all.

I am so sorry to hear this brother. I will pray for you right now, and will endeavour to keep you both (and your son) in my prayer. Yes, be assured that God does answer our petitions in due time. I have seen two seemingly hopeless marriages restored by fervent prayer just this year -- one of these just this last week. May God grant you the strength you need.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby SLJ » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:04 am

Sword,
You have my prayers! I am convinced that God will bring reconciliation of all -- to Himself and to each other.

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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sword of ManticorE » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:30 am

Thank you for your prayers, and thank you for not judging me. I already feel the strength from God and His assurance and faith in me. Some would say that suicide is a cowards way out. Let me assure you, it is not. I have been on this road before, and with God's help, He has pulled me through everytime. Again thank you and God be with you all.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sword of ManticorE » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:30 am

Thank you for your prayers, and thank you for not judging me. I already feel the strength from God and His assurance and faith in me. Some would say that suicide is a cowards way out. Let me assure you, it is not. I have been on this road before, and with God's help, He has pulled me through everytime. Again thank you and God be with you all.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby redhotmagma » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:00 am

Also praying for you Sword.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sazag84 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:12 am

I am sorry to hear of this. I will pray for you and your family.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby stuartd » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:28 pm

sorry to hear this ''sword'' I shall pray for you also , may I ask if she is open to patching things up [so to speak ?] would she be willing to go and get some counselling ? please don't end your life ! ,thank-you for your brutal honesty.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Sword of ManticorE » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:31 am

stuartd wrote:sorry to hear this ''sword'' I shall pray for you also , may I ask if she is open to patching things up [so to speak ?] would she be willing to go and get some counselling ? please don't end your life ! ,thank-you for your brutal honesty.

Brother, I will not take my life as it is a presciouse gift given to me to know Him more. Because of all your prayers, my wife and I are still together and are building our relationship with God and our own marriage as well. Thank you all again for your prayers. May God be with you all always.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby priegel » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:22 pm

I am new here and have not introduced myself before this thread. I am Phillip in AZ and have been a lost prodigal for years trying to find my way back. I find CU to be hopeful compered to my believe right/work behave past. I just lost my mind at about 26 and am now in lifes darkest times at a56. I am daily suicidal from 2 back surgeries and 24/7 pain, recently lost my Mom/only relative, alone, and lost career. I just don't want to be here at least in a human way anymore . I am only here now because I am afraid of hell if I take my life. I try to focus on loving God but my brain only feels this pain in my soul and body. I would rather be in the light of God. I don't know how long I can hang on. appetite is going, caring for daily needs gets harder, lost friends, no physical activity (2 years ago I swam, danced, biked, worked etc, all gone now). I don't sleep and pills are my primary supplements. Anyway, I hope if I go that God, because of his death on the cross will remember what pain was like and that even he could not endure it for too long. I have been at this 2 .5 years now and am almost done. Drs now are recommending a 3rd procedure to correct the last botch job the MD did. what a mess. I am so tired of people who say we don't have a right to choose when we go. It seems God/life/nature can choose to beat us up all it wants but if we choose to leave then "we" are the ones with the problem. A lot like the idea of when good things happen we are blessed by god but when bad happens its "nature" or "just the way it is", or my favorite "it is what it is". Thanks for listening.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:16 am

Sorry to hear about your problems, Priegel. I should note that this is an old thread where the originator of the thread asked for all his or her posts to be deleted (or manually did so), and consequently there are parts missing for context.

I suppose in a way that's an analogy for suicide, too: parts will be missing in the life of other people for context. :)

I'm not as hard against suicide or even euthanasia as some other people are, but I'm very sensitive to people thinking I (or the forum or universalists generally) am giving people permission to commit suicide or otherwise persuading them to do so. So let me be clear: I'm not doing that.

But as long as they aren't dodging out of personal responsibilities in this life by doing so, neither do I condemn other people for doing so. I know pain drives people crazy and can easily erode our will to live.

But what we need is more life, not more death, in our lives. I hope you'll strive for that instead and keep doing so.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Geoffrey » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:40 am

priegel wrote:I am new here and have not introduced myself before this thread. I am Phillip in AZ and have been a lost prodigal for years trying to find my way back. I find CU to be hopeful compered to my believe right/work behave past. I just lost my mind at about 26 and am now in lifes darkest times at a56. I am daily suicidal from 2 back surgeries and 24/7 pain, recently lost my Mom/only relative, alone, and lost career. I just don't want to be here at least in a human way anymore . I am only here now because I am afraid of hell if I take my life. I try to focus on loving God but my brain only feels this pain in my soul and body. I would rather be in the light of God. I don't know how long I can hang on. appetite is going, caring for daily needs gets harder, lost friends, no physical activity (2 years ago I swam, danced, biked, worked etc, all gone now). I don't sleep and pills are my primary supplements. Anyway, I hope if I go that God, because of his death on the cross will remember what pain was like and that even he could not endure it for too long. I have been at this 2 .5 years now and am almost done. Drs now are recommending a 3rd procedure to correct the last botch job the MD did. what a mess. I am so tired of people who say we don't have a right to choose when we go. It seems God/life/nature can choose to beat us up all it wants but if we choose to leave then "we" are the ones with the problem. A lot like the idea of when good things happen we are blessed by god but when bad happens its "nature" or "just the way it is", or my favorite "it is what it is". Thanks for listening.


Phillip, welcome.

About 20 years ago I spent several hours over the course of several days in the company of a Jewish pain-management physician. (I wish I could remember his name.) In other words, his medical specialty is managing pain. He was quite angry at the state of pain management in the United States. He said he couldn't count the number of poor sufferers that he encountered who had gone through months or even years of unnecessary suffering--all because of the incompetence of the ones supposedly caring for them. He said that in all his years of practice he had never, not even once, encountered a case that he couldn't fix. Every single one of his patients either had his pain eliminated or reduced to an amount for which the patient said, "I can live a happy and meaningful life with this amount of pain." He said the spectre of unmanageable pain is a tale told by incompetents in the medical field or by people eager to kill.

Let me hasten to add that this physician did not present himself as some sort of miracle-worker or as some sort of fringe figure with knowledge and techniques known only to him. No. He said that any properly-trained pain-management physician can get any pain under control. The problem is that most hospitals do not think it is very important to manage pain. Doing so is way down on their list of priorities. The "pain management" that sufferers receive is conducted by someone who has not specialized in the field, but rather took a single one-semester class in medical school 15 years ago in order to fill-up his required credit hours. These Dr. Bozos then incompetently treat pain, and then say or imply that that's as good as modern medicine gets.

My physician acquaintance further emphasized that (wonder of wonders!) people with untreated pain tend to get depressed and suicidal. He got so angry with those voices who say that the answer to these suffering, depressed, and suicidal people is to kill them. ("Those are my patients they're wanting to kill!") No. The answer is to get their pain under control, which typically ends the depression and suicidal thoughts. (And in those minority of cases in which depression and suicidal thoughts persist, competent counselling [not capital punishment] is indicated.)

Since my physician acquaintance spent years studying pain management and further years managing pain, I can only accept what he says on authority. Who would better know about pain management than someone who has spent a lifetime studying it and applying it?

I write all of this to give you heart. If you are in unmanaged pain, then you are in the care of incompetents. You have not reached the limit of modern medicine. You have instead met the Peter Principle personified. I hope and pray you can get the care you need from a competent pain management specialist.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:06 pm

Geoffrey wrote:About 20 years ago I spent several hours over the course of several days in the company of a Jewish pain-management physician. (I wish I could remember his name.) In other words, his medical specialty is managing pain. He was quite angry at the state of pain management in the United States. He said he couldn't count the number of poor sufferers that he encountered who had gone through months or even years of unnecessary suffering--all because of the incompetence of the ones supposedly caring for them. He said that in all his years of practice he had never, not even once, encountered a case that he couldn't fix. Every single one of his patients either had his pain eliminated or reduced to an amount for which the patient said, "I can live a happy and meaningful life with this amount of pain." He said the spectre of unmanageable pain is a tale told by incompetents in the medical field or by people eager to kill.

Let me hasten to add that this physician did not present himself as some sort of miracle-worker or as some sort of fringe figure with knowledge and techniques known only to him. No. He said that any properly-trained pain-management physician can get any pain under control. The problem is that most hospitals do not think it is very important to manage pain. Doing so is way down on their list of priorities. The "pain management" that sufferers receive is conducted by someone who has not specialized in the field, but rather took a single one-semester class in medical school 15 years ago in order to fill-up his required credit hours. These Dr. Bozos then incompetently treat pain, and then say or imply that that's as good as modern medicine gets.

My physician acquaintance further emphasized that (wonder of wonders!) people with untreated pain tend to get depressed and suicidal. He got so angry with those voices who say that the answer to these suffering, depressed, and suicidal people is to kill them. ("Those are my patients they're wanting to kill!") No. The answer is to get their pain under control, which typically ends the depression and suicidal thoughts. (And in those minority of cases in which depression and suicidal thoughts persist, competent counselling [not capital punishment] is indicated.)

Since my physician acquaintance spent years studying pain management and further years managing pain, I can only accept what he says on authority. Who would better know about pain management than someone who has spent a lifetime studying it and applying it?

I write all of this to give you heart. If you are in unmanaged pain, then you are in the care of incompetents. You have not reached the limit of modern medicine. You have instead met the Peter Principle personified. I hope and pray you can get the care you need from a competent pain management specialist.


Nice post, Geoffrey

You know what's interesting about pain management and modern medicine? When my 92.5 year old mom was in a coma, the doctors didn't prescribe the latest pain medications. They prescribed morphine, And its history in medicine, is probably more than a 100 years old. It's tried, but true.

Meanwhile, some folks find help with pain via acupuncture - which is hundreds of years old. Or the more modern and controversial, US medical cannabis movement. Done under a physician's direction and legal at the state level.

The point is that doctors and modern medicine, don't have all the answers. Or you might have to seek various physicians, in order to find one that has the right answer.

Matthew 7:7 - New International Version - "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.


Meanwhile, here's the Protestant site Got Questions answer at:


Answer: It is a sad fact that some Christians have committed suicide. Adding to the tragedy is the false teaching that committing suicide automatically consigns one to hell. Many believe that a Christian who commits suicide will not be saved. This teaching is not supported in the Bible.

Scripture teaches that, from the moment we truly believe in Christ, we are guaranteed eternal life (John 3:16). According to the Bible, Christians can know beyond any doubt that they possess eternal life (1 John 5:13). Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38–39). No “created thing” can separate a Christian from God’s love, and even a Christian who commits suicide is a “created thing”; therefore, not even suicide can separate a Christian from God’s love. Jesus died for all of our sins, and if a true Christian, in a time of spiritual attack and weakness, commits suicide, his sin is still covered by the blood of Christ.

According to the Bible, suicide is not what determines whether a person gains entrance into heaven. If an unsaved person commits suicide, he has done nothing but “expedite” his journey to hell. However, that person who committed suicide will ultimately be in hell for rejecting salvation through Christ, not because he committed suicide (see John 3:18). We should also point out, however, that no one truly knows what was happening in a person’s heart the moment he or she died. Some people have “deathbed conversions” and accept Christ in the moments before death. It is possible that a person who commits suicide could have a last-second change of heart and cry out for God’s mercy. We leave such judgments to God (1 Samuel 16:7).

The suicide of a believer is evidence that anyone can struggle with despair and that our enemy, Satan, is “a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44). Suicide is still a serious sin against God. According to the Bible, suicide is murder; it is always wrong. Christians are called to live their lives for God, and the decision of when to die is God’s and God’s alone.

May God grant grace and the psalmist’s perspective to each one who is facing trials today: “Why, my soul, are you downcast? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God” (Psalm 43:5).
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby priegel » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:28 am

thank you for your posts. I am under "pain management" but it is patches and pills, I have screws in my back and they may need to be removed but I have no real guarantees it will work. I am tired, spent , insane almost with it all over the last years. I have seeked and sought but I sense no guidance from God in all of this. From my apostate years I really am not sure about who I am in God except that i believe in his existence but have no idea how he helps us when we really screw ourselves up by our own decisions. this one has taken my life away and I may finally really take it because it is all really becoming unbearable. The loss of friends, job and purpose, bodily strength, love, the isolation is all human depravation to a point I didn't think existed except in POW camps. The body is a cage/cell contained within the prison of the home. I have to decide soon whether to go ahead with this surgery or not. Waiting on a fusion to fuse when the hardware is not real strong is the man issue. Docs agree that the old screws need to be removed and stronger ones with rods put in. they disagree as to when , 2 say now, 2 others say wait 3-6 months but I don't know if I can. I have meds and other means to end it, mine would not be case of a moment of insanity but a clear choice to leave the body to get out of the painful cage, the way a raped child would run away from home to get away from the monster dad. My spine has been raped and I let it happen. and in the same way a child that has had that happen and knows they are permanently changed and damaged so am I. The aching and stabbing is torment. I actually kind of know what ECT feels like now in an earthly way. choices that led to this causing permanent unreversible damage and pain, knowing you allowed it and it can't be taken back. I can't imagine an eternal spiritual version of this. I can only pray that Gods mercy triumphs over judgement as I feel I have paid in my body for my choices and that Christ has suffered for and with me in this and that the Father accepts the Sons sacrifice and intercessions for me no matter what. I am human and am being broken in body mind and spirit. Alone and without love in my life it is just too sad to bear. We tend to think of heaven and hell as places we go according to what we believe and do (or not). When I believe it is about just being with and knowing God, knowing and getting nearer to Him, that is the heaven. At this point i can't think of anywhere Id rather be. I am so afraid of facing life this way, Living more years like this with no reprieve. It is not sane or humane for us to do so. We put down pets for less and consider it kindness. I am also afraid of facing God for such an act. I know I have value to the world but it is slowly being eroded away as I become less able to give it, pain erodes the value of a life in every way, just as time and the elements erode valuable things that are naked to them, finally they end up worthless, skeletons of what they once were. I see this in me every time I look at myself. Its good to be here, framing my issues in a spiritual way. My fire right now is purifying me, how much I can endure before burning up we shall see. Love to all Phil.
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby priegel » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:46 am

Thanks Jason, to be as clear as you, I am not looking for any such permission or support from the forum for such an act. We are each responsible to God and others for our actions . I only am hoping for open dialogue and online companionship as I go thru this horrible period of my life. this is in a way easier as no one in the forum has to see me , the anonymity is a blessing in a weird way. Only I know what Im experiencing so only I can make these ugly choices. If the discussion gets to uncomfortable then I will not be hurt or offended if my posts are not approved. but I know that others are facing similar issues, so maybe someone else will be helped. If the thread is removed I would understand, Thanks again. Phil
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby JasonPratt » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:28 am

I don't think there will be any problem about post-approval (and we haven't deleted this thread yet, although a prior member deleted his or her start to the thread and some discussion).

Relatedly, though: all new members are sent by the forum engine to a spamcatcher for their first three or four or five posts, as a standard operating procedure. An admin or mod checks the spamcatcher on a semi-regular basis (I try to do so once a day, but sometimes miss especially on the weekends), and regardless of the topic as long as the new member seems to be something other than a philosophical zombie (i.e. an internet bot ;) ) or a live spammer, then we let them through. After enough posts the system will start letting the new member through automatically henceforth.

It's just a way to keep out bots or people trying to sell shoes or essays or warcraft gold (haven't seen one of those in a while).
Cry of Justice -- 2008 Novel of the Year (CSPA retailer poll).
Sword To The Heart -- metaphysical argument to orthodox trinitarianism (and thence to universalism)
Trinitarian universalist exegetics, on internet radio, or here in forum posts.
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JasonPratt
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Re: Suicide and Christian Universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:33 pm

Jason said:
But what we need is more life, not more death, in our lives. I hope you'll strive for that instead and keep doing so.


That's very good council, and I pray the same. Thanks Jason :D
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