The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Justice in the Qur'an compared to the Bible

Interesting.

Interesting indeed! Just a couple weeks ago I noticed this–I’m reading through the Quran as well, as I’m trying to befriend Muslims for Jesus’ sake. I will definitely write up something more comprehensive on this topic (“Justice” in the Quran vs “justice” in the Bible) in the future, but I’ll throw out my preliminary thoughts here.

–The idea that Allah needs no reason to forgive people’s sins, or that his mercy/compassion is so great that he can just decide to forgive, is sympathetic to (some) EU’s view of a compassionate, loving Father who does not need a penal substitutionary atoning sacrifice by/from the Son in order to accept sinners. In this way, I think whatever makes the EU position stronger /more reasonable also strengthens the possibility of Islamic universalism (!). After all, if it is no detriment to Allah’s character/justice to forgive sinners, why can’t he forgive all? Wouldn’t it glorify his mercy and compassion? (Nearly all chapters of the Quran begin with the words, “In the name of The God, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate”)

–On the other hand, if it turns out that PSA is a necessary part of sharing the gospel (leading to EU) with Muslims, we can use the fact that all Islamic cultures (that I’ve encountered) have some idea of punitive justice for human crimes against other humans. Often, this is transferred to how Muslims think about Allah’s punishing sinners in hell, too. If we want to explain PSA to Muslims, we can find an analogy (or representation) in the way that they think about people who commit sins that hurt other people. For practical human purposes, finding “justice” in the Muslim’s mind often translates to “who gets punished for this crime?” I think it’s possible to illustrate and strengthen this point enough to (eventually) understand the eternity-altering PSA work of Christ as being good enough to take the punishment for all mankind’s sins, thus fulfilling God’s punitive requirement.

Anyway, just some thoughts I had on this topic recently. I haven’t completely thought through them yet.Thanks for bringing this up, Alex!

On a side note, it’s interesting how many world religions teach a form of universalism–Christianity and Islam (the two I’m most familiar with) are the two biggies who DON’T… :unamused: :laughing:

Cool that you noticed it too :sunglasses:

I’m undecided about strict Calvinistic PSA & so wasn’t sure if the Islamic perspective is good or bad :confused: Either way it’s interesting to see the perspective of another major world religion. Thanks for expanding with your thoughts, that helps.

Btw, I would highly recommend Samuel Green’s engaging-with-islam.info/ The second edition is being worked on at the moment and looks to be some of the best material on the subject anyone has ever done!

For those who are reading the Quran, make sure you read it in chronological order. wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur’an

Later revelations replace earlier verses when there is a contradiction. Also keep in mind the context of the verse. The context is not the surrounding verses, but the life of Mohammed and the circumstances in which the verse was revealed. Here is a really good intro to Islam and Islamic theology.

youtube.com/watch?v=yfR3EmBs2nQ

I dont spend or waste anymore time on man made religions. I wasted three years of my life learning about islam and the quran. I began to have doubt in my Christian faith and feared that there maybe some truth to islam. The truth of Universal salvation freed me from any doubt I had about Christian faith, and taught me a valuable lesson about Islam and who created that religion. There is only my Divine Father who I focus on now. I stopped trying to be good and by God,s grace, I left it with Him to deal with. Studing any outside religion outside of the Christian faith may have its pros, but its cons can be devestating when not careful.

if a person listens to Muslims and reads the books they recommend there is a fair chance they will be conned. But this is different.

If you had watched something like these lectures before your investigation into Islam you would not have wasted 3 years.

youtube.com/watch?v=yfR3EmBs2nQ

When you say universal salvation I hope you mean that there is no salvation outside of faith in the Jesus of the Bible and sooner or later everyone will place their faith in him.

I read the Qur’an a couple of years ago and I’ve been wanting to read it chronologically, so thanks for the link.

As for it weakening my faith? No. If you read it all by itself, you might begin to be sort of conned, I guess. It doesn’t make a lot of sense without the commentary, though, and most of the commentary in the hard copy I read was about Muhammad’s various wars. The Bible is a good antidote to the Qur’an, so long as you read the more interesting bits. :wink:

I just got a hard copy of the Rutherford Emphatic Version and read the instructions (you need instructions to understand all the marks), and it is AMAZING. Much better than the Kindle copy and the e-Sword module because those don’t have all the emphasis marks. I’m so excited. It will make it hard to read the Qur’an. But some things, in the world in which we live in, you just need to know.

Love, Cindy

I bought the Rutherford Version on Kindle. Sometime I’ll get a hard copy. Thanks for the advice Cindy.

I just have one question. Why would a Christian want to read a book about a false religion? Now that I am a believer in Universal salvation, I know there are wonders in the bible still undiscovered, and because of my new faith, I desire to to seek them. This is why I ask my question.

Even though I believe salvation is found only in Christ, that doesn’t rule out the possibility of some truth to be found in other faiths. For me personally, I am not interested in reading other scriptures, I have a hard time even opening my own bible consistently, but if others like to, more power to them!

What truth can be found in a book inspired by a man?

i’m sorry, what? how could there NOT be truth in nearly everything? even satanism has some truth in it! even coming from the “point of view” that humanity could never fully know the truth because of blah-blah-total-depravity-blah-blah…or that something could be so full of lies that the truth is barely effective (prosperity gospel, for instance)…it is a known fact that there must be truth present or the whole of a thing just looks ridiculous?
so naturally, even in some crazy cults you will find some truth.

i’ll be really contraversial here and say that even evangelical Christianty can’t help but have some truth in it, despite being based on mostly human interpretations, theories, cultural conventions, etc.

if some Thibetan monk helps me more clearly see Christ’s character, then there is truth in him. he has found something beautiful in this chaos of raw data we call life. if a Muslim shows me something about God i hadn’t seen before, then she has truth too. i can’t claim to have “more” truth then them, though i can point to the revelation of Christ. just because i have a big dusty book to rely on…well so do many other faiths. i could be wrong and they could be right. if i am too arrogant to admit that, i am in trouble, and what’s more, i am not living in obvious objective truth…no matter how i might claim to be.

those who follow Christ have much to teach the world. but we can still learn things from other people, other points of view.
just cause we have Christ, who sums up everything in love, doesn’t mean we have a monopoly on ALL truth. we’ve got perhaps the most important bit (as a gift…we cannot boast). but there is alot to learn from other people.

i’ve read many books “inspired by man” that had truth to convey of one kind or another.

most are fiction. one great example of a series of books that have consistently contained much truth about human nature and our relation to the universe is by Sir Terry Pratchett.

the Hunger Games, by Suzanne Collins contains much of an object lesson on Girardian mimetic/scapegoat theory, which might not be the whole truth, but is certainly an important observation that contains truth in itself. Girard also realised this theory by studying other books “inspired by man” which ring true…works by Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Proust, etc.

Not aware of any books that are not inspired by men.
What is “truth” anyhow? Is there a difference between “truth” and “facts” ?

Well, you wont find it in the quran.

Hi James

Thank you, mate, for stating a truth so eloquently. I think I’m right in saying that even so conservative and orthodox a Christian as CS Lewis was not so silly or arrogant as to deny there was *any *truth in other faiths.

Toodle pip

Johnny

Sword of MantocorE,

As a pause from the thread I have just clicked on your youtube message of hope and like it a lot! Inspiring music, flight in space, and message!

Michael in Barcelona

Why read ops (other people’s scriptures)? Because if you want to understand and relate to other people, it’s important to understand at least a little of what their religion teaches them. Granted there are all flavors of Muslims, but having read the quran is better than not having read the quran in relating to them.

In addition, in case anyone hasn’t picked up on this, Islam is impacting the rest of the world rather alarmingly. NOT knowing what the quran says is a handicap. You have commentators saying things like “Islam is a beautiful religion of peace,” and why? Because they have not read the quran, let alone read it chronologically, and also because they do not understand abrogation.

Now there are Muslims – many, many Muslims – who are beautiful PEOPLE of peace. But Islam has never ever even aspired to be** perceived **as a religion of peace, except in Muhammad’s early Mecca days before he gained military strength. At that point in the rise of his new religion, he needed to keep the locals from stoning him for things like not respecting the local pantheon. So he made nice. He even allowed that Allah’s three daughters (the three swans) must be given their due in worship. (Remember Salmon Rushdie and the Satanic Verses?)

So, I read the quran for several reasons. First, I don’t want to be deceived by people telling me this and that about Islam, when perhaps they don’t know, or are even actively seeking to deceive me. Second, I want to have at least a basic understanding of the scriptures of Muslims because it might make it easier for me to relate to them. Third, I don’t want to give an opinion regarding something of which I know nothing. Islam is a huge issue in the world today, and at some point, it’s unavoidable that I WILL be asked to give my take (and this happens fairly often). I would like to be able to offer my pov from a position of at least a small amount of first-hand knowledge.

I don’t read it to find truth. There is of course some truth there of a basic sort, but I don’t need to read the quran to find it. It is only because I already know the Truth that I can recognize it there. A little truth mixed with a little falsehood (or in this case, a lot of falsehood – sorry, but that’s honestly the way I read it) is still an untruth. But I can say that only because I’ve actually read the thing. Otherwise, it’s just hearsay.

Love, Cindy

My beloved sister Cindy. I disagree intirely. I do not need to know their religion, but I am to be a beacon of light to them so that they can see what their religion is.

a beacon of light? good luck with that.