The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Justice in the Qur'an compared to the Bible

I post an extract from an article by David Marshall entitled ‘Can Jesus Save Islam? Some of you might like it because it suggests that Christ can work in mysterious ways.

The Bell curve etc. In any group of people, most are quite decent, a few a very decent, and a few are very nasty. The very nasty ones get the most press.

God sends his rain on the just and the unjust alike. No one knows nothing about God.

Allan I completely agree :smiley: -

Two useful links I have found which are helpful for me as a Universalist Christian are -

worldwithouthate.org/

This is the website of Rais Bhuiyan and shows that at least one Muslim is capable of Christ like love.

Just 10 days after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Rais Bhuiyan was working at a gas station in Dallas when he was shot in the face by a man named Mark Stroman. Stroman was on a shooting spree, targeting people who appeared to be Muslim or of Middle Eastern descent. Stroman is due to be executed July 20; Bhuiyan, the only survivor of the attacks, is fighting to save his life.

“According to my faith in Islam, there is no hate, no killing. It doesn’t allow anything like that,” says Bhuiyan. “Yes, Mark Stroman did a horrible thing, and he brought a lot of pain and disaster, sufferings in my life. But in return I never hated him.”

Bhuiyan has created a website called World Without Hate to educate others about hate crimes as a means of preventing them. He’s also working with Amnesty International and Stroman’s defense attorney, who has filed several appeals on Stroman’s death sentence.

And have a look at what Eric Reitan – the Universalist philosopher featured on this site - has to say about Anders Brevik at

thepietythatliesbetween.blogspot … %20Breivik

Here is another positive story I found - which proves to me that some Muslims can follow the God of Love even if many follow a God of fear and vengeance (in the light of this article I think there are at least good grounds for seeing the Bektashi Sufis – the dominant sect of Islam in Albania – as very being different from the Islamists. Perhaps the historical influence of Jesus on Sufism is a cause here (but certainly I discern the spirit of Christ a work here)

, Leisa Zigman"]Creve Coeur, MO (KSDK) — With rising anti-Muslim sentiment across the country, an untold story is raising greater awareness about the Muslim faith and the teachings of the Quran. That awareness comes from an unlikely source: a small Jewish congregation in Creve Coeur.

Temple Emanuel is premiering a groundbreaking exhibit of photos that reveals Albanian Muslims who saved 2,000 Jews during World War II.

It’s a story you’ve likely never heard. It is a story told through the faces of Albanian Muslims who risked their own lives to live by a code of faith and honor called Besa.

Dr. Ghazala Hayat is a neurologist at St. Louis University and serves as spokesperson for the Islamic Foundation of Greater Saint Louis.

Hayat said while Besa is an Albanian word, it is part of Islamic culture and teachings. According to Dr. Hayat, Besa is an ancient code which requires people to endanger their own lives if necessary to save the life of anyone seeking asylum. To this day, Besa is the highest moral law of the region, superseding religious differences, blood feuds, and even tribal traditions.

The exhibit is opening eyes throughout the world.

“You don’t have to share the same faith. You have to respect each other’s faith,” Hayat said.

Pictures of the Albanian Muslims in the exhibit tell a lifetime of stories. As a young mother, one woman did not have enough breast milk to feed her son. A Jewish woman she hid nursed him instead. She was asked if she minded that a Jewish mother had fed her baby.

“Jews are God’s people like us,” the woman said.

Another man who also hid Jewish families said, “I did nothing special. All Jews are our brothers.”

And the head of the Bektashi sect, with more than seven million followers, tells the story of Albania’s prime minister, who gave a secret order during the Nazi occupation.

“All Jewish children will sleep with your children, all will eat the same food, and all will live as one family,” the order read.

In post-war Europe, it is said Albania was the only Nazi-occupied country to boast a greater number of Jews than before the Holocaust.

“They were among the people who at great personal risk sheltered Jews and protected them in their homes and did so out of a religious obligation,” said Rabbi Justin Kerber, Temple Emanuel.

The Islamic Foundation of Greater St. Louis and several local Jewish agencies hope the St. Louis community will experience this rare look at the role Albanian Muslims played in sheltering Jews from the Nazis.

“At this time of tension over Islam in America, there is so much more to understanding Islam,” Rabbi Kerber said.

The BESA exhibition at Temple Emanuel is October 21- December 1, 2010
12166 Conway Road
Thursday 5 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Saturdays and Sundays, 12 p.m. to 4pm and by appointment
For more information, contact Gail at gail@testl.org or call 314-432-5877

beautiful posts, Sobornost!

and Allan, you’ve again put succinctly what i’ve tried to say with much rambling! :slight_smile:

(my emphasis)

Sherman, that’s a lovely piece of testimony. And I think you’re so right. The best way to ‘witness’ to others of different faiths or no faith isn’t by shoving our beliefs down their throat. Because of course, from where they stand it’s the other way round. We’re the ones ‘in the wrong’ as it were. But if we are open and interested in what *they *believe, that opens the door for two-way dialogue, through which they can explore what *we *believe. And the Spirit will do the rest … :smiley:

Peace and love

Johnny

And how did you find that out? You must have learnt it somewhere. And because you learnt it you can be a bit more tactful when talking with Muslims.

If you don’t know anything about Islam, I hope you ask Muslims questions when you witness to them so you can be a more effective witness. The danger with using this method is that Islam is a very deceptive religion. Better to have some preparation before engaging in discussion with Muslims.

I know you won’t be deceived because of past experience. But the reality is you would not have wasted so much time if you had read books like “The Third Choice” by Mark Durie.

I found two errors in their theology. I have discussed and debated with Muslims for almost 3 years, and they are no different than most Christians are when it comes to their beliefs. Muslims claim that their Quran is perfectly written in Arabic and that there are no mistakes in it because it is written in Arabic. The first mistake I found in Arabic is the messengers name Gabriel written in Arabic. The Arabic word جبريل Jibril translated in English is Gabriel. In other words, it is just a way to pronounce the angels name in Arabic. This is one reason why I believe that it is a book written to give a man power and wealth. Why? Because the angel Gabriel perfectly written in Hebrew is גַּבְרִיאֵל
This word means “God’s strength” or some would might say “God is my strength”. If Mohammed had paid more attention to detail, he would of seen this and written his name in Arabic like this “Allahquwah” = الله‎ قوة, which should sound more like Allah’s strength instead of just Gabriel.
The other error in their theology occurred to me, when I became a believer in Universal salvation. Because the two things that Muslims and Church going Christians have in common, is that they both believe in the theology of an everlasting hell (with the exception of annihilalists). And regardless of how much or hard you show them how the power of love is unfailing and never ending, they both refuse to except it. This is found in the Quran…

Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. 4:56

They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom. 5:37

For them is drink of boiling water and a painful doom, because they disbelieved. 6:70

And the dwellers of the Fire cry out unto the dwellers of the Garden: Pour on us some water or some wherewith Allah hath provided you. They say: Lo! Allah hath forbidden both to disbelievers (in His guidance) 7:50

If thou couldst see how the angels receive those who disbelieve, smiting faces and their backs and (saying): Taste the punishment of burning! 8:50

On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded 9:35

Hell is before him, and he is made to drink a festering water, Which he sippeth but can hardly swallow, and death cometh unto him from every side while yet he cannot die, and before him is a harsh doom. 14:16-17

Thou wilt see the guilty on that day linked together in chains, Their raiment of pitch, and the Fire covering their faces. 14:49-50

We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them. That is their reward because they disbelieved Our revelations. 17:97-98

Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! 18:29

The guilty behold the Fire and know that they are about to fall therein, and they find no way of escape thence. 18:53

If those who disbelieved but knew the time when they will not be able to drive off the fire from their faces and from their backs, and they will not be helped! 21:29

Behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve! 21:97

But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. 22:19-22

The fire burneth their faces, and they are glum therein. 23:104

For those who deny (the coming of) the Hour We have prepared a flame. When it seeth them from afar, they hear the crackling and the roar thereof. And when they are flung into a narrow place thereof, chained together, they pray for destruction there. 25:11-13

It will be a hard day for disbelievers. On the day when the wrong-doer gnaweth his hands, he will say: Ah, would that I had chosen a way together with the messenger (of Allah)! 25:26-27

But as for those who disbelieve, for them is fire of hell; it taketh not complete effect upon them so that they can die, nor is its torment lightened for them. Thus We punish every ingrate. And they cry for help there, (saying): Our Lord! Release us; we will do right, not (the wrong) that we used to do. … Now taste (the flavour of your deeds), for evil-doers have no helper. 35:36-37

Those in the Fire say unto the guards of hell: Entreat your Lord that He relieve us of a day of the torment … although the prayer of disbelievers is in vain. 40:49-50

Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, When carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire. 40:70-72

Lo! the tree of Zaqqum, The food of the sinner! Like molten brass, it seetheth in their bellies As the seething of boiling water. (And it will be said): Take him and drag him to the midst of hell, Then pour upon his head the torment of boiling water. 44:43-48

Those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels. 47:15

Then how (will it be with them) when the angels gather them, smiting their faces and their backs! 47:27

You see, it is my belief that Mohammed learned of the doctrine of hell from the Catholics A.D.600 and saw the opportunity to gain both wealth and power with the tool of fear.

I’ve seen Muslim blog sites where compassionate hearted Muslims ask the same sorts of questions of the fate of no-Muslims loved ones as are asked here by Christians about the fate of non Christian loved ones. Yes – these descriptions of eternal hell in the Quran are absolutely blood-curdling. But even in Islam there is diversity over interpretation of these passages – there are ECT Muslims, Annihilationist Muslims, and Universalist Muslims it would seem. Obviously the Islamic ECT crowd are in the majority; but Annihilationist perspectives and Universalist ones are not new traditions, or so eccentric as to be completely marginal.

If anyone is interested in becoming well versed on this matter (something I’m not!!!) I see that there is a scholarly study of Islam and ideas of the scope of salvation by Mohammad Hassan Khalil – ‘Islam and the fate of others’

amazon.co.uk/Islam-Fate-Othe … 507&sr=1-2

The publishers blurb says -

Can non-Muslims be saved? And can those who are damned to hell ever be redeemed? Mohammad Hassan Khalil examines the writings of influential medieval and modern Muslim scholars on the controversial question of non-Muslim salvation. Islam and the Fate of Others is an illuminating study of four of the most prominent figures in the history of Islam: al-Ghazali, Ibn 'Arabi, Ibn Taymiyya, and Rashid Rida, as well as a wide variety of other writers. Khalil demonstrates that though these theologians tended to shun a purely pluralistic concept of salvation, most envisioned a Paradise populated with Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Khalil reveals that these writers’ interpretations of the Qur’an and hadith corpus-from optimistic depictions of Judgment Day to notions of a temporal Hell and salvation for all-challenge widespread assumptions about Islamic scripture and thought.

Sword of Manticore –
I’ve had a think and I can’t see that the Catholic Church can have had any influence on Islamic eschatology in the Quran. I’m a Christian –not a Muslim –so I don’t think that they Quran dropped undiluted from Heaven. I do think it has historical influences and sources; but none of these resemble the Catholicism of St Augustine as far as I’m aware. I think we are looking at Coptic and Syriac Christian influences – Nestorain and Arian – and Jewish influences (I know there is a quotation from the Talmud included in the Quran).

There may well have been cross fertilisation between Catholicism and Islam during the period of the Crusades – but this was several hundred years after the formative period of Islam. But I’m unaware that there is any evidence of contact between early Muslims and the Catholic Church. But I could be wrong.

Why not? The hell doctrine in the church was just around a hundred years old when Mohammed wrote the quran.

Hi Sword of Manticore –

(The only reason why I was contesting this one is that there was a fraud named Alberto Rivera who claimed that Islam was actually the result a plot by the Catholic Church. He was a friend of Jack T. Chick and Chick wrote a tract which put forward this myth. It’s not the claim you are making, which is all that matters to me really – that’s good).

As i understand it Mohamed did not come into contact with any Catholics –it was non-orthodox Eastern Christians he was in contact with. There weren’t any Catholics in Arabia at the time, or in Ethiopia, where some of the early Muslim community sought refuge from persecution. Although there was always a strong minority tradition of Universalism in the Church in the East – there was also an ECT tradition that Mohamed could draw upon.

Here’s some stuff I’ve fished about Islam and the church of the East -

Philip Schaff, the great historian of Christianity (who was a Calvinist Universalist) wrote the following about Christianity in Arabia during the seventh century –

The Eastern Christians in Arabia belonged mostly to the various heretical sects which were expelled from the Eastern Roman empire during the violent doctrinal controversies of the fourth and fifth centuries. We find there traces of Arians, Sabellians, Ebionites, Nestorians, Eutychians, Monophysites, Marianites, and Collyridians or worshippers of Mary. Anchorets and monks settled in large numbers in Wady Feiran around Mount Serbal, and Justinian laid the foundation of the Convent of St. Catharine at the foot of Mount Sinai, which till the year 1859 harbored the oldest and most complete uncial manuscript of the Greek Scriptures of both Testaments from the age of Constantine. But it was a very superficial and corrupt Christianity which had found a home in those desert regions, where even the apostle Paul spent three years after his conversion in silent preparation for his great mission. (Schaff, Volume IV, Chapter III, “Mohammedanism in its Relation to Christianity”)

Some scholars –Christian and Islamic – argue that the Quran’s polemic against the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (which completely misunderstand the Christian Trinity) is actually aimed specifically and exclusively at the Collyridian heretics who seem t have believed that Jesus was the physical offspring of God the Father and the virgin Mary – and seem to have worshipped all three as gods)

And historian William Dalrymple has this to say regarding Eastern Christian connections with Islam

The longer you spend in the Christian communities of the Middle East, the more you become aware of the extent to which Eastern Christian practice formed the template for what were to become the basic conventions of Islam. The Muslim form of prayer with its bowings and prostrations appears to derive from the older Syrian Orthodox tradition that is still practised in pewless churches across the Levant. The architecture of the earliest minarets, which are square rather than round, unmistakably derive from the church towers of Byzantine Syria. The Sufi Muslim tradition carried on directly from the point that the Christian Desert Fathers left off while Ramadan, at first sight one of the most foreign and alienating of Islamic practices, is in fact nothing more than an Islamicisation of Lent, which in the Eastern Christian churches still involves a gruelling fast.

– Taken from The Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East, by William Dalrymple

That make sense, Dick. When having a discussion with a Muslim, I find it frustrating, trying to convince him that no, I do NOT believe Jesus to be the offspring of a sexual union between God the Father and Mary, and that I do not worship Mary. Some of them get embarrassingly graphic concerning the first and their great objections to it. Understandable as I also find it highly objectionable, too. Of this, however, I am always unsuccessful at convincing them. They will NOT believe that I (and also WE) do NOT believe this offensive “doctrine”. Maybe it will be helpful to be able to point this out, that you’ve explained.

I confess that, while I haven’t SAID it, I’ve thought they were just being belligerent and taking this idea of Jesus being God’s Son to the ridiculously physical realm because they WANTED to believe that we believe such a ridiculous idea. But I guess they’re just like us. They have their filters on, and they literally CAN’T hear anything that is contrary to what they “know.”

Thanks for your insight, Dick :smiley:

Love, Cindy

That’s great Cindy -

love

Dick :slight_smile:

Great points, Cindy.

But there’s another factor, too, maybe. For a muslim looking at Christianity, they are dealing with a constantly moving target. Roman Catholics and some of the orthodox churches do venerate and pray to Mary and their saints, even if they themselves do not consider such veneration and prayers to be the same thing as worship, which they reserve only for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Throw in the hundreds, if not thousands, of other Christian denominations with myriad degrees of difference and similarity, and Christianity is a pretty confusing jumble for non-believing outsiders to wrap their minds around. So, it’s little wonder that a muslim would have difficulty understanding what we… as individuals… do or do not believe.

That’s true Andy –

And Islam is a myriad of sects too. The traditional number is 72 – but I’m sure there are more than this in reality. It is so sad that the Wahabbis and the Muslim Brotherhood have such an influence today – mainly because they have the funds from oil; they want to eradicate variety through force. Many Sufi Muslims venerate their saints and pray to them and do on pilgrimage to their shrines in the same manner as Catholics and Orthodox Christians too, and unlike the grim Wahabbis of Saudi Arabia they believe in worshipping God through beautiful music and beautiful architecture, because God is beautiful. 30% of Muslims in the UK are Sufi refugees from Pakistan and Bangladesh fleeing the same wave of Wahabbi influenced persecution that has engulfed the Christians there.

Since there is a diversity of Muslims I think it’s best to listen to what the specific Muslim you are speaking to believes – its’ good to listen rather than assume and its god to ask them t listen rather henna assume too. If the form of Islam they practice bears the stamp of the Wahabbis then you probably will be talking to a person of intolerant mindset who is certain they believe the right things about a God who is overwhelmingly powerful and that you are just wrong about everything. If you are talking to a Sufi they will probably believe in God who draws close in compassionate love; the Friend to whom human beings can be friends. And they may well believe in Peace with all.

And Cindy – do let us all know how you get on explaining the theory about the historical origins of the view of the Trinity in the Quran; I’m completely convinced by the explanation I’ve given and I know some Muslim scholars are too – but they tend to be the sort of Muslim scholars who live in the West and are free to speak their minds.

Love to all

Dick

Hi, Dick

I will do that – I’m not in any conversations with Muslims at the moment. Usually it comes about when someone initiates a conversation at my blog. And since I haven’t been talking much about Islam recently . . . . However it’s always good to know for the next time. :wink:

Love, Cindy

Well - bloggers tend to be real right nutters :laughing: (are we bloggers? does that include us?)

love

Dick :laughing: :laughing:

I hope we all pray for Malala Yousufzai – the enormously courageous, intelligent and courageous young Muslim girl from Pakistan who took on the Taliban with her blog and is critical in hospital after they shot her. See -

bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19908409

Such great courage in one so young is humbling, inspirational and hopeful.