The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Sorry Paidionā€¦ with regards to the mini-apocalypse of NT prophecy genea <Ī³ĪµĪ½Īµį½°> IS NOT ever used/translated/rendered ā€œRACEā€ ā€“ it is FACTUALLY incorrect to keep maintaining this, i.e., it is a falsehood!

Hey Paidion,

ā€˜Religionā€™ is a ways away from race, nation, people, FW itā€™s W. These scriptures, at least in my opinion, are pretty focused about a specific time. :slight_smile:

Thanks.

I did exactly the same thing Chad so youā€™re in bad company.

P.S. I, too, love the Quiet Man. For me, here in the UK, the epitomisation of the true American (man) would be somewhere between John Wayne and James Stewart.

" itā€™s not a hope to be attained but a reality to be grasped. "

That really sums up the view of ā€˜realized covenant eschatologyā€™! :smiley:

:laughing: gotta love google :mrgreen:

That was my first hearing- and use, of the word furphy. I looked it up too. I kinda like the word, actually :slight_smile:

Full Preterism/Pantelism Refuted:

ā€œThe folly of full Preterismā€:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig ā€¦ -preterism

Full Preterism ā€œmisdefining resurrectionā€:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig ā€¦ surrection

ā€œMishandling the sleep -awake metaphorā€:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig ā€¦ e-metaphor

ā€œMisdefining the raptureā€:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig ā€¦ he-rapture

ā€œFull Preterism robs Christā€:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig ā€¦ obs-christ

ā€œThe Lesser Christ of Full Preterismā€:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig ā€¦ -preterism

[size=150]oh dear!![/size]

Full Preterism/Pantelism Refuted:

ā€œThe folly of full Preterismā€:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig ā€¦ -preterism

Full Preterism ā€œmisdefining resurrectionā€:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig ā€¦ surrection

There are many things in the Olivet Discourse that donā€™t reconcile with Preterism if read in a dispassionate way such as,

ā€œAnd then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one anotherā€ Matt 24.10 There were no Christians in Jerusalem in 70AD, they had all left.
ā€œAnd because lawlessness will be increased the love of many will grow coldā€ 24.12 Again Christians were gone from Jerusalem

ā€œBut the one who endures to the end will be savedā€ 24.13 ??? Christians were long gone, no one who endured until the end was saved in Jerusalem

ā€œFor there will be great tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now , no AND NEVER WILL BEā€ 24.21 Since then we have had WW1 and WW2 , Stalin,Hitler,Pol Pot, Mao, Kim Jung Un, etc. Can any sane person claim the destruction of Jerusalem compared remotely to these tribulations some of which were world wars??? How about Nazi death camps?

I could go on but there are many things that donā€™t reconcile to Jerusalem 70AD not to mention the Second Coming, the resurrection of the dead.

Plus there was no sudden destruction as Jerusalem was slowly strangled to death over 3 years of slow misery.

Steve said:

First of all, you cannot really understand full preterism by the few posts on this or any other forums. And Pantelism can not really be really appreciated until you first understand the premise of the full preterist view.

To understand these positions would necessitate a bit of studyā€¦ Of working through beliefs outside of orthodoxy. :open_mouth:

If you are not willing to do this, then all of your objections are simply of one who holds to a view and is unwilling to look at a different one. :confused:

We are now simply talking opinions and not truth.

I can live with that. :wink:

Again, concerning the word ā€œĪ³ĪµĪ½ĪµĪ±ā€ usually translated ā€œgeneration.ā€ Reviewing the past posts, it is positively declared that the word cannot refer to a particular race. Consider the definition given by the lexicon of the Online Bible Program:

As you can see 3) and 4) are not the ONLY meanings.
Number 2) could refer to a race or people group, for exampleā€”the Jewish people.

By the way, people groups HAVE passed away. Do you know any Goths? How about Huns?

Once again Don, these are opinions not hard truths. I can live with that. Can you? :open_mouth:

What do you see as the differences between Full Preterism & Pantelism? The same as expressed here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantelism

Your assumptions are anything but dispassionate. Let me show youā€¦

The great falling awayā€¦ what do you think for example the likes of Peter and Paul or the writer of Hebrews were dealing with and referring to in their epistles prior to this end? ā€” ā€˜believersā€™ reverting to worthless idols OR wanton Judaism ā€” surely you are aware of all these texts?

As toā€¦ ā€œChristians were long goneā€ ā€” well yes they wereā€¦ AND? Those who were obedient and followed Jesusā€™ words escaped Jerusalem near the beginning of the end in late AD66, i.e., they endured to the end, and got outā€¦

If you study history, both secular an sacred, you will become aware that the Christiansā€™ flight to Pella of Peraea in the Decapolis occurred when the Roman general Gaius Cestius Gallus, who having encamped against and besieging the City, for no apparent good reason suddenly retreated, whereupon many of the hardened insurrectionists pursued and slaughtered a few thousand Roman soldiers. In the midst of the melee many more civil-minded Jews along with all the Christians escaped, getting out from under the ravenous control of these rebellious Jews.

Now you may choose not to believe me, and thatā€™s fine, but maybe consider thisā€¦

ā€¦worth a dispassionate consideration. :open_mouth:

Jesusā€™ declaration was referencing ā€˜the covenant peopleā€™ of HIS generation (Mt 24:34), on whom the ends of world, i.e., their world, was coming ā€” nothing of that old covenant world survived the end; thus Jesusā€™ ā€œand never will beā€ was fulfilled; or as Daniel likewise states itā€¦

ā€œA time, times, and half a timeā€ ā€” 42mths aka 3Ā½yrs = AD66-70.

Before you doā€¦ read above again. :sunglasses:

A question in that regard is, are Full Preterism & Pantelism, in & of themselves, rather harmless, even if considered not as literal or biblically plausible as the Pre, Post & A-Millennial viewpoints?

What if Preterism - whether Partial, Full, or Pantelistic - leads one also to believe something dangerous & clearly unbiblical, such as there are no afterlife negative consequences for anyone, even the worst butchers of history? IOW the heresy of Ultra Universalism, or that everyone immediately goes to endless heavenly bliss at the moment of death. As several Preterist/Pantelist forum members here either believe, lean to, or are flirting with (off & on).

One opinion on the subject of my first question above stated:

ā€œFull or Hyper Preterism is simply an extreme form of Preterism that is heretical, it is heretical because it denies fundamental tenets of the Christian faith: That Jesus Christ will come again, in glory, to judge the quick and the dead, and that there will be a bodily resurrection of the dead and eternal life in the Age to Come.ā€ christianforums.com/threads ā€¦ s.8052813/

Well, certainly NOT in terms of some far distant future Jewish raceā€¦ Jesus is emphatic with his ā€œTHIS generationā€ ā€” unequivocally, logically and sensibly referring to his contemporaries. And as previously noted ā€” <Ī³ĪµĪ½Īµį½°> genea IS NOT ever used/translated/rendered as ā€œRACEā€.

You can read the first two chapters of this book online - here is the link to chapter 1.

I think they begin to make a good case for full-preterism. I guess Iā€™ll end up buying the book.

Thoughts?

beyondcreationscience.com/index. ā€¦ _Chapter_1

Now, Dave. You need to help me find a bookā€¦That talks about the Zombie Apocalypse, during the tribulation. :wink:

Itā€™s definitely full prĆŖteristā€¦ I have a personally signed edition on my shelf ā€” even though the authors are not so favourably inclined towards pantelism pg. 390, but thatā€™s ok. Many years back I spent a lot of time on their prĆŖterist website (amongst others) making the case for prĆŖterism being inherently inclusiveā€¦ something NOT very popular AT ALL and for which I was pilloried a lot as being a ā€œuniversalistā€. These days Iā€™m mainly on this universalist site being panned for being a ā€œheretical prĆŖteristā€ ā€” but when peopleā€™s precious paradigms are pricked you get that ā€” lol some things donā€™t change. :wink:

The main focus of their book however is to introduce the idea of what the authors call ā€œCovenant Creationā€ ā€” technically an old earth approach BUT looking at Adam as being the first covenant man, as opposed to strictly being the first biological man. They make a good case for it and I personally hold to a variation of it myself. Their website isnā€™t as busy as it once was but there is still some action there atā€¦ DEATHISDEFEATED.

steve7150 wrote:
ā€œFor there will be great tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now , no AND NEVER WILL BEā€ 24.21 Since then we have had WW1 and WW2 , Stalin,Hitler,Pol Pot, Mao, Kim Jung Un, etc. Can any sane person claim the destruction of Jerusalem compared remotely to these tribulations some of which were world wars??? How about Nazi death camps?

Jesusā€™ declaration was referencing ā€˜the covenant peopleā€™ of HIS generation (Mt 24:34), on whom the ends of world, i.e., their world, was coming ā€” nothing of that old covenant world survived the end; thus Jesusā€™ ā€œand never will beā€ was fulfilled; or as Daniel likewise states itā€¦

As far as I see the Old Covenant ended on the cross when Jesus sacrifice initiated the New Covenant. This temple destroyed in 70AD was not a Holy God ordained place of worship, it was Herodā€™s temple used by Rabbinical Judaism.
This so called ā€œends of the worldā€ coming for Godā€™s people was not quite that as Rabbinical Judaism continues today and is actually growing.

The subject matter of the first part of the Olivet Discourse was the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem 70AD and so Jesus statements are applying to that event specifically and so when he references ā€œfalling awayā€ or ā€œendures to the endā€ or to a tribulation that is worse then anything before or after , the fact is that these descriptions for Christians donā€™t fit Jerusalem 70AD and for the Jewish people it was not the worst event ever, not even close. Perhaps this is a type and a shadow of a greater event but this event alone isnā€™t enough.
Davo I understand your responses , I just see this differently as applying to events in Jerusalem 70AD specifically or not.