The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Fire is Transformation

Yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains. :astonished:

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 Pet 3:12 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements(stoicheon) will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

2 Cor 5:16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

Rev 21:5 And the one who sat on the throne said, “Behold I am making all things new!”

All that is of this world, its foundations(arches), its elementary principles(stoicheon), its principalities and powers- are being destroyed by transformation. “looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements(stoicheon) will melt with intense heat!”

Not a literal fire but a fire of transformation, from flesh to spirit, death to life, sleep of night to dawn of Day, from chaos to harmony.

Without form and void, the word enters, “Let there be light!” Creation begins.

As Paul says, “Although we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we know Him so no longer”?

Why?

Because now we know Him in the Spirit, in the “renewed mind”.

The renewed mind has had destroyed(or is having destroyed) in it- the “elementary principles”. Receive the word emplanted which s able to save(deliver/heal/restore) your soul. If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation- it operates by new principles. The principles of love, light and life. “Be not like the gentiles, darkened in their understanding”.

If any one is in Christ, they are a “new creature”. A “creature of newness”. Operating by trust in stead of control. Receiving by giving rather than taking. Filled by pouring out rather than by consuming. Fulfilled by sharing rather than hording.

The elementary principles are being destroyed by newness- see here, “Behold” the “one who sits on the throne”- that one who has all power in heaven and earth says- “I am making all things new”

Notice this. Behold :slight_smile:

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Verse 22 shows the fundamental reality. All that died in Adam is being made new. Death transformed into life. Verse 23 refers to the ages(an administration executed throught eh completion of times Eph 1)

Verse 24 the method He is abolishing all rule power and authority. All principality. All the “foundations of the earth”. All the “elements”(elementary principles/stoicheon). He is abolishing it BY TRANSFORMATION. He is not creating emptiness, or leaving a vacuum. He has destroyed them by reconciling all things by the blood of His cross(Col 1:15-20)

Verse 25 For He must reign ntil every adversary is subjected. How does He reign? IN LIFE. How do we reign? IN LIFE! Newness of life. Death in us transformed into life in Him. Blessed is the person who perserveres under trial for afterwards they will receive the Crown of Life(jas).

11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.(the ultimate principle of correction, the principle of the lake of fire, the means of the new creation).

We are waiting for a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness…

Destruction of adversaries through discipline and trial, yielding the “renewed mind”, destroying towers and strongholds, rending veils, releasing from “futility” into the glorious liberty of the sons of God- that perfect law of liberty- love. Death “swallowed up” by immortality.

Verse 26 and 27, the last enemy is death- abolished by subjection to the King of Life, the King of Love. The last elementary principle of this cosmos. The last foundation. The last veil. The last law. The last vestige of the “old” man who needed to be “ruled to be righteous.”

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God…

For freedom Christ has set you free :slight_smile:

Verse 28 The one who has gathered all into one, and all those who have been gathered, poured into the Creator, immersed in the water of life, and the Creator poured also into all of them- that God becomes ALL IN ALL.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”(John 17)

We the gathered are one in Christ, but as carnal babes still leaning on the foundations(arches) and elementary principles(stoicheon) of this corrupt cosmos- still needing to be ruled to be righteousness. But as we grow, through discipline and trial(if we are not illegitimate) we are “renewed” in the spirit of our minds. We walk by life. We walk in love. We are new creatures. We are a new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelss righteousness- the fore runners of the age to come, the first-fruits of the ALL IN ALL.

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.(For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it… In the beginning the earth was without form and void)

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things(that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.) To Him be glory to the ages. Amen. Rom 11:36

For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Perserverance “holds us in the fire”. The fire is transforming us into His image. Consuming wood, hay, stubble. “This is the patience of the saints”…We who endure are being renewd in the image of Christ, many sons unto glory, perfected through suffering.

“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.”

This is how we are becoming the first-fruits of His creatures, in Christ, the first fruit of the dead, He who came through the fire and it could not catch on His garment because He was pure gold to begin with. He suffered and “if we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him”…reign in LIFE.

Those who do not endure will suffer loss. Those who endure suffering will receive the crown of life, and the overcomers rewards- priesthood, understanding, power with God, stewardship in the kingdom of God.

Beloved we know not yet what we will be but we know that when He appears we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.

This is because for those who have “endured to the end” the fire will have finished its work. Transformation.

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,

“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the fire, we bear the precious testimony, "Jesus Christ is Lord of All, and MY LORD, who I trust WITHIN THIS FIRE, whatever it may be, regardless of whether I am delivered or if it consumes my mortal body- I EXULT IN THE HOPE OF THE GLORY OF GOD, and my hope enters within the veil. it matters not for I have already died, and my life is hid with Christ in God.

There will be fire as well for the wicked in the ages to come- Jesus said so. Whatever it will be, it will transform them, even as it is transforming ALL THINGS.

Behold I make all things new!

That is a very good scriptural exegesis Eaglesway.

The all things reconciled in Colossians 1 is referring to things in the new heaven and earth. The passage doesn’t mention those under the earth ( the lost). We see this in Revelation where it describes all things being made new. Notice it excludes those in the lake of fire:

Nowhere are we told that the evil doers will enter the city. The gates are open so that the righteous can go out to look on the dead bodies:

The bodies aren’t literally dead in the lake of fire for Paul describes the lost state:

I do agree however that the fires of God transform. But this is always on God’s people. What we are seeing evidence for is purgatory. For example:

God then moves to judge two verses later:

Every mouth confesses but some do it under God’s justice. God is just as much glorified by His holy justice as He is His grace. As the Catholic Father Reginald Garrigou - Lagrange has said:

.

Some universalists like the site becomingone.org think there is a 1,000 year period where the unbelievers are dead. Then they are raised.

So some will have uninterrupted eternal life while an unbeliever has a 1000 year deficit.

I don’t know why it is so few people in this world study this but they don’t.

Theology is like history. Very few people seem to put in the work necessary to notice every detail yet everyone is fighting to have his say.

That is why religion and politics are so crazy. People tie their egos to both but so few people really examined every little detail.

Cole, I would like to provide few portions of scripture that offer a different view.

Phil 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Notice that this includes EVERY knee and Every tongue, “of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth”.

Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

13** And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”**

Notice, "every created thing which is** in heaven and on the earth and under the earth **and on the sea, and all things in them

Notice the similarity and possible(I think anyone must admit at least the possible correlation) correlation of these two portions. I believe the verses in Rev are the fulfillment of the portion in Phil 2.

Also, the verses you quoted in Colossians 1, you are excluding Paul’s clear definition of all things, which goes beyond any limitation…

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

There is no differentiation between any of the “alls” in this porion of scripture- but on a site like this, I am sure you have been shown this many times, so I have no desire to debate it further than this…

The whole creation groans awaiting the revelation of the sons of God(Rom 8). The whole creation gives glory to the Lamb and to the Father in Rev 5:13, and the “all things reconciled” in Col 1, is the same “all things created” by Him in Col. 1, and the same “all” in which God will be “all in all” in 1 Cor 15:28- after the last adversary, death, is anulled.

Yes. I answered this when I stated at the end of my post that every mouth confesses but some do it under God’s justice. God is just as much glorified by His holy justice as He is His grace. The things that are reconciled under the all things of Revelation is the things in heaven and earth:

Revelation is clear when it says God makes all things new it’s referring to the new heavens and earth. Right after he states this he says,

Sure they say with their mouth God is Lord but they remain evil under His justice. God punishes with His just punishment and is glorified.

Young’s Literal Translation

I believe God is punishing, and will punish the wicked in the age to come- for their eventual correction. Otherwise there are too many verses in the record that make no sense. But then, if we don’t include them in our our paradigm, they don’t need to make sense. :slight_smile:

It’s incomprehensible to me why someone would argue against UR on a UR site.

I used to argue with people who didn’t agree with me but I did it mainly hoping for a conversion and to defend God’s reputation.

But Cole you have no reason for this obstinacy. You can post on a lot of other Christian forums with people who agree with you.

Be angry with me for saying this but it is the truth as I see it.

These universalists are a lot more erudite on the scriptures than the typical believer and you are not going to change any UR person’s mind on here.

God doesn’t have to defer to human will. God has the will power to make everyone be saved just as He intends…Do you really think God isn’t going to win in the end?

If you had a child, however rebellious, are you going to let them be seriously hurt?

Stop using that Latin perspective and realize God’s is Hebrew. The language of God is Hebrew not Latin and so is the perspective.

I’ve been thinking of becoming Catholic for quite some time. But I like to test my views before I do. I like universalism. Moreover you don’t have to be a universalist to come here. Although I flip flop a lot from universalism to eternal punishment. I’m almost there. I do find more peace though if I just focus on Jesus and not worry about universalism or eternal punishment.

Well, the policy of the site is that you dont have to be UR or even Christian. I welcome the opportunity to answer Cole’s objections. It provides a dialogue that others can watch and perhaps have their doubts and objections answered. There are a lot of really competent ministers of the word of reconciliation on this site… from various backgrounds and from various theological perspectives.

I was never against Catholicism formally until a few weeks ago but the case is just too massively against them. Don’t get me wrong. I like Catholic people but the Church itself just has too many things wrong in their dogma and in their Institutions,

They taught erroneously that the soul is immortal for one thing when it isn’t.

The spirit is immortal and you need Jesus Christ to get it.

The Jesuits intrigues have been unbelievable and the Church ran the Inquisition for 500 years and never apologized for it.

They even sold God’s grace.

They ordered priests into celibacy when the bible says there will be deacons with only one wife all because one pope decided contrary to God’s directives to order it.

Would God want his believers to not reproduce?

They took all kinds of people into the priesthood with no vocation simply for the money.

They also discriminated against women.

In my opinion Jesus Christ is the champion of women but Catholic history did not uphold that.

Also the Catholics made God’s law of little effect by misinterpreting Peter’s vision. Peter’s vision made people clean for evangelical efforts. It didn’t make the Old Testament foods clean. Pork still can carry retroviruses. Shrimp is an ocean cleaner and high in,cholesterol, etc.

You’re right the site is very open and that is probably for a good reason.

I just didn’t understand why Cole is beating a dead horse over and over.

But I think he’s working it out…Some people take a while before they decide.

Thank you cloud. Yes it has taken me three years now. But I started out as a Calvinist. I met an 85 year old man in A.A. that decided to help me out. He’s Catholic. Now I’m his caregiver and we pretty much help each other out. But he’s not bad at all. He has done a lot for me and since then I have been studying Catholicism. But I have also been coming here. I like a lot of the people here.

I think we are off topic though. :smiley:

Off topic…lol…that is the story of my life…lol.

I studied the 5’ points of Calvinism several years ago and Calvin was wrong on a couple of points.

Plus it may not be well known but Calvin was involved in a religious opponent’s death. The man was named Severus and when you come across a character flaw like that in someone who is supposed to be saved you have to reconsider.

Topics morph as they roll along, its all good :wink:

Redeemed, Big Daddy Weave
m.youtube.com/watch?v=VzGAYNKDyIU

Here you are. Set to music.