The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why is there so much confusion about Jesus' return?

Steve I absolutely agree with you. :wink: That is the only reason for evil existing that makes any kind of sense. What I am struggling with is not that God allows evil, although that is very hard to grasp too, but I just about do. Does God command evil acts, rather than just allow man’s evil acts? (God can surely use evil events to bring about good e.g Jesus’ death being the pinnacle. We don’t view Jesus’ death as being done by His Father, but by the evil men.)

Notice the direction of the coming of the Son of Man: ““I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.” (Daniel 7:13)

In other words, the Son of Man’s coming refers to His Ascension from earth to Heaven. He is coming to the Father, NOT coming to us.

I therefore understand Jesus’s words of His coming to be referring to His Ascension (circa A. D. 30). I think we humans are so self-centered that we tend to always place ourselves in the center of everything: “Look! Jesus says He’s coming! He must be coming to us!”

Does God command evil acts, rather than just allow man’s evil acts? (God can surely use evil events to bring about good e.g Jesus’ death being the pinnacle. We don’t view Jesus’ death as being done by His Father, but by the evil men.)

Is there really a difference? James said that if we know to do good and don’t then that ommission is a sin. The act of God not intervening and stopping evil either is sin or it is not good to intervene.
In other words God could intervene but chooses not to, so this decision either must be sin or must be good. If you believe Jesus that God is good then NOT stopping evil must be good therefore there must be information we simply don’t know about. So the allowance of evil or causing evil simply has to be for a greater good. Greater good demands postmortem salvation, it can’t work without it.
If God is good there are only 2 possibilities which is the above or to not believe the parts of scripture that offend or appear to be contradictory.
One of the problems with omitting parts of scripture is it still doesn’t explain (to me) why God does not just destroy evil or at least Satan.

Hi Geoffrey. :slight_smile: I have no problem with understanding Daniel 7 to be referring to Jesus in heaven after His death, i.e. at his ascension. I suppose Jesus’ ‘parousia’ could be referring to Him being present with His Father, rather than Him ‘coming’ to us. However, what do you make of the angels’ statement after Jesus ascended to heaven: ''This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will ***come back ***in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:11?

Obviously God allowing sin is not the same as humans who know to do good but don’t. God knows the end from the beginning, and so if He allows something it must be for a good reason. I suppose this could be applied to causing evil too. As we can’t see the whole picture, we are stuck in the moment and can’t see what is being achieved. I remember when in labour with my first child, it was so bad I would have happily pressed a button to end the whole world, in order to stop the pain. I couldn’t get past the pain whilst it lasted. Once it passed, and the baby was in my arms, the pain was instantly forgotten, and of course looking back I knew it was worth it. I suppose that is how we will view the sufferings we have gone through in our lives, once we are made whole and see things the way God does.

I don’t understand your last point Steve? Whether you omit scriptures or not, the Bible’s main theme is about destroying evil surely? At the end of time, no evil acts or persons will exist. All will have been reconciled, and so evil and Satan will be no more. We are still in ‘time’ and so are still experiencing evil. Thank you for your replies Steve. They have helped me. :slight_smile:

I don’t understand your last point Steve? Whether you omit scriptures or not, the Bible’s main theme is about destroying evil surely? At the end of time, no evil acts or persons will exist. All will have been reconciled, and so evil and Satan will be no more. We are still in ‘time’ and so are still experiencing evil. Thank you for your replies Steve. They have helped me.

Thanks Catherine, i hoped it helped. I realize that having faith also includes believing God is good even though there are many unanswered questions.

Yes evil will be destroyed at the end of the age, that’s why Paul calls it “this present evil age” to distinguish it from other ages or the eternal state.

Having faith is tough, it’s not a natural thing.

Hi Catherine
I have been following this thread with great interest because I share many of your thoughts and concerns. You put them more clearly than I could and I am grateful for that.
There seems to be two matters to deal with. One is the apparent violence/cruelty (or whatever) of the OT depiction of God and how that may affect our confidence in the Bible as a whole. The other is about the second coming. With regard to the former, I am just as puzzled and weighed-down as it seems you are.
With regard to the Second coming, whist I agree first glance at texts may lead one to believe in a promised 1st century return, I don’t think those texts necessarily imply such a thing and I certainly disbelieve that Christ’s second coming has yet happened. I believe we are probably not far from a physical, literal second coming.

But, as for the quote above, I only see ONE time when Jesus said people living would SEE Him in His Glory (ie as Coming King), this promise was (possibly) fulfilled in the verses immediately following when some SAW Him transfigured on the Mount. (Note he only promised a ‘seeing’ not an actuality.)
The other texts talk about ‘this generation shall not pass’ but what did Jesus mean by ‘this generation’? Did the ‘this’ refer to his listeners, did it refer to the generation he was already talking about in his account? Or did it mean ‘this gene-pool’ (as Paidion has suggested). Ive read and re-read those passages and I believe that the second possibility is AT LEAST as likely as the first. In which case there is no problem.
And one final rider, I also happen to believe that the ‘imminence’ of Jesus return is true for 1st century Christians as it is for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and us too because we will all encounter the reality of Jesus’ second coming at the moment of our death.
That is not to deny a second coming which will be visible world-wide to those living and which (according to some absolutely amazing prophecies in scripture) is probably within the next twenty years.

Just my thoughts on the second coming

The “greater good” is the maintenance of man’s free will. God values the ability to choose above preventing evil, because He wants man to FREELY choose Him; He has no use for a race of robots, or puppets controlled by strings.

Although God sometimes (but rarely) intervenes to stop evil, to do so ALL the time would be the destruction of free will.

I know, Steve, that your objection to this is: "Why would God allow evil people to exercise the power of choice, and dominate or kill other people, therefore depriving the victims of their choices?

Thank you, Steve, for bringing that up. It appears to be a valid point! I have thought some more about this, and now realize that I didn’t give you a satisfactory answer when you brought it up. I still cannot give you a good answer, but I’m thinking.http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/Emoticons/hmmm.gif

I believe that to be the very first proclamation of the Second Coming in Scripture. Here is how I break it down:

  1. The Old Testament talks about Christ’s First Coming.
  2. The four Gospels talk about Christ’s First Coming.
  3. Acts and the Epistles talk about Christ’s Second Coming.
  4. The book of Revelation talks about Christ’s First Coming.

In sum, I think the only texts referring to Christ’s Second Coming are in Acts and in the New Testament epistles. :slight_smile:

Those 4 points are an excellent way of stating it. :smiley:

  1. The Old Testament talks about Christ’s First Coming.
  2. The four Gospels talk about Christ’s First Coming.
  3. Acts and the Epistles talk about Christ’s Second Coming.
  4. The book of Revelation talks about Christ’s First Coming.

In sum, I think the only texts referring to Christ’s Second Coming are in Acts and in the New Testament epistles.

Depends on your eschatology. I think Revelation discloses it in chap 19 - 20.

Although God sometimes (but rarely) intervenes to stop evil, to do so ALL the time would be the destruction of free will.

I know, Steve, that your objection to this is: "Why would God allow evil people to exercise the power of choice, and dominate or kill other people, therefore depriving the victims of their choices?

Thank you, Steve, for bringing that up. It appears to be a valid point! I have thought some more about this, and now realize that I didn’t give you a satisfactory answer when you brought it up. I still cannot give you a good answer, but I’m thinking.

OK Paidion thanks for being humble enough to admit you have to rethink it.

Hi Pilgrim, thank you for your thoughts on this topic. :smiley: My crisis has for the most part passed thank goodness. This thought popped into my mind in the last few days: God suffered the same evil in the person of His Son Jesus, as humans do- thinking particularly of those who have been murdered in a brutal painful way (like the Canaanites). So then, God doesn’t allow any of us to go through something He doesn’t also go through. I still don’t understand these things, but for now I’m trusting God that He knows what He is doing in subjecting the creation to all this frustration. Jesus is our hope that the pain will have been worth it. :smiley:

I’m really confused about the ‘second coming’ Pilgrim, but whether Jesus is literally coming back or not, our hope is that one day we will be with Him forever. That is what I am going to cling to.

(yes, that’s a good point about the transfiguration. :wink: )

Interesting Geoffrey. I’ve never seen anyone explain it like that. Thank you. :slight_smile:

Actually Catherine, you might want to reconsider, or at least have a “rethink” on that…

Christ’s transfiguration and Christ’s parousia were two totally separate occurrences and cannot be conflated with any consistency, logically or otherwise…

Mk 8:38-9:1 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.

On what account were any of Jesus’ IMMEDIATE audience i.e., “his disciples” AND “the people” (8:34) in any danger of impending “death” prior to the transfiguration incident? – Jesus was addressing more than just the disciples; the persecution of believers was yet future; there were NO “rewards” doled out “each according to his works” (Mt 16:27) at the transfiguration.

Mk 9:2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.

Unlike the forth coming parousia of which some of “this generation” would indeed “see” (Mt 26:64) the transfiguration was a completely separate and private affair… the parousia on the other hand was in the full “glory of His Father with the holy angels” – NONE of that occurred on the mountain for all to see. (Note, the transfiguration was a ‘seeing’ not an actuality, as per Mt 17:9.)

I think that both the first coming and the second coming is referred to in every one of these four areas of Scripture.

If you are an all powerful God why would you be in a rush? What if He wants a lot of children? Then it is to His advantage to wait a while and to God a thousand years equals one day.

A lot of groups are expecting Jesus’ return right now. Also we just in the last hundred years got the type of mass transit that lets people go to and fro like the bible says will happen in the Last Days.

The recent return of the state of Israel is another sign. The New Testament says that the fig tree will bear leaves but no fruit and that is Israel today. Showing leaves but still not turning to Jesus Christ.

I don’t remember Jesus saying he wouldn’t leave us as orphans. Maybe he did say that but either way in the Old Testament widows and orphans fell under the direct protection of God.

The preterists are right. The futurists are wrong.

John said these things are soon to happen in Revelation.

If they weren’t soon to happen then why would God give it 2000 years early?

The famous passage in Daniel 8:9 about the little horn replacing the big horn is about the Fall of the Roman Empire and the Papacy rising in its place.

Read Deuteronomy 20. God advised Israel to offer peace terms before ever making war.

Remember Rahab indicates the Canaanitic people knew about the Red Sea and that God was with Israel.

God owns everything by right of creation.

But these nations who were on Abraham’s land…(Abraham was given the land at the Well of Be’ersheba)…were demonic and steeped in evil and refused God’s overture of peace just like a lot of unbelievers do today.

If you are having trouble with the Old Testament then read the books at God’s Kingdom Ministries.net

If you want to read something interesting read “The Bible Says Divorce and Remarriage Is Not Adultery”…

I think Catholicism did so much damage to people it is scary.

Jesus Christ never rescinded the Old Testament Laws and that includes God’s law on divorce.

The law is perfect and spiritual the bible says.

Divorce was allowable under certain circumstances…A lot of people’s hearts are hard even today.

God isn’t going to leave someone tied to an abusive spouse but the Catholic Church will.

Infant baptism?

A baby isn’t even accountable for his own sins until around the Bar Mitvah age of 13.

Running around in black cassocks?

Black is the color of death and mourning.

I will wear rainbow colors…I am celebrating Christ’s resurrection and ascendancy…

Here’s the article on divorce…Silly Catholics…the more I study Catholicism the more I shake my head at how it got so much wrong and stayed that way intentionally.

Here is the article:
gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teac … -adultery/