The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A couple questions about the Rapture and hell

From time to time, I post something that quickens things within me that I find myself returning to them later and eating from them more as God leads me into deeper and more liberating truths of his nature, this is one of those things. Someone posted this on another forum and my response follows . . .

*We will meet the Lord in the air and be with him forever (with him forever, not in the clouds forever). And as when the Lord himself put a 2000 year pause between Isaiah 61:1-62a and the rest of that verse:

Isaiah 61:1-2 (KJV)
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

We had better pay closer attentioin to where he places other pauses in history and where he does not.*

My Response:

Or . . .pay closer attention to where men put pauses that perhaps God didn’t?? I have a few questions that I’d like to ask. One . … did the angels lie to those standing in earshot of what they were proclaiming immediately following the ascension of Jesus? “Just as YOU saw him go, YOU shall see him return . . .” We grew up beleiving that they were referring to a time 2,000 years later . . .why? “If” it were to be 2000 years later, why did the angels tell “them” that “they’d” see Jesus return to them? How did they see him go? Was he flesh? Was he spirit? What form were they referring to? Because “if” we’re to believe it’s for 2,000 years later, then it would also mean they “didn’t” return to “them” who were standing there.

Another favorite that I now can’t understand why it is used as a platform . . .As it was in the days of Noah … . we’re to believe that we’re being raptured just as . . .just as what? Noah wasn’t raptured, he was protected, but he wasn’t raptured. He didn’t leave this world, he merely floated around on it. But who was really removed and who really remained? Was it not the “ungodly” that were removed? Was it not “Noah” that then remained? How is it that we’ve embraced it to mean the church is being raptured?

The biggest one for me though is the prophecy that Daniel received and the same prophecy that John received. The language is the same, the symbolism is the same . . .Jesus even referred to Daniel’s prophecy in Matthew 24, another passage that is said to be directly connected between Daniel’s revelation and John’s revelation. Yet the angel that was with Daniel told him to seal it up because it wasn’t for “his time”. Then about 600 years later, John comes along, receives a more detailed, but still the same prophecy as what Daniel had but John is told by the angel to do just the opposite of what Daniel was told to do. John was specifically told to leave his book open for the time was “at hand” which literally means . . .it had already started.

How can we expect it to be “yet to come” 2000 years later . . .or longer, no one knows for sure . . .when John was told to leave the book open because it had already started . . .but with Daniel he was to seal it up. Another interesting thing for John’s side of it … .the first thing he sees is the seven “seals” and no one worthy could be found to break the seal … . John cries, is comforted and enlightened that one “is” found worthy and what’s he see next? He doesn’t see the lion of Judah . . .he sees a “lamb as though it had been slain”. Well . . .we know obviously “who” the lamb is . . .but what no one seems to also see is that the fact that the lamb HAD JUST BEEN SLAIN is also showing the WHEN THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE . . .it wasn’t 2,000 years later … .it was when Jesus was slain, as a lamb that had gone to slaughter, which was 2000 years ago.

I used to be one that embraced traditional understanding of many of revelational prophecies. I taught the book of Revelation even, and embraced everything I taught, even though it wasn’t something I received personally, but instead it was something I was taught to teach, I still embraced it nonetheless . . .but through the transition in my relationship with the Father, perspectives changed. The emphasis seemed to return to the author and finisher, the creator rather than creation. It was no longer about God destroying men, it was about God destroying “man” in men. It was no longer a book of death, doom and gloom, but instead it became a book of revolution, that led to reformation, that ended in restoration.

but it raised so many other questions about what I thought love was. Such as, how could Love, which casts out all fear, turn around and use fear as a motivation to get people to respond to falling in love? How could I be in love with someone that I was deathly afraid of? I heard a Evangelical pastor state on national TV about 4 months ago or so that the biggest reason he became a Christian was because he was scared to death of going to hell . . .really? “That’s” what falling in love with Jesus is all about?

God wants us to forgive one another . . .to love those who hate us . . .sooooooo . …what? So he can turn around and send them all to eternal hell forever? Is “that” how love works? You punch me in the face, I’m to turn the other cheek which shows God’s nature . . .which in turn he then will take that person and burn them for eternity in hell. Or . . .God loves me so much that he sent Jesus to die for me, his only son. He’d go to the end of the earth to save me because he loves me so much . . .but . . .

It’s like when I first got married . . .I finally found “the one” that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. So I approach her and I start whispering love-nothings in her ear. I tell her how deeply in love I am with her, how I can’t get her out of my mind, nor do I want to. How I can’t wait to begin spending my life doting on her, waiting on her hand and foot and my love for her can only grow stronger . . . but . . .should there come a time when she rejects my love, I also have built a dungeon in the basement where I’m going to chain her up and force her to live in the cold, dark, wet cellar where only the rats feel at home. Just how quick do you think she’s going to be looking for an exit?

Yet the church just shrugs at that and says something deep like . . .“God’s ways aren’t our ways . . .” Which is exactly my point. “Our” way of thinking is judgment is destruction . … But God’s true judgment is not the destruction of “us”. His judgment is the carnality “in” us. “That’s” what he sets his wrath against, his fire destroys, his breath consumes . . .its’ all for the purpose of restoration, not destruction. Religion has twisted love into such a contorted mess that we actually believe that eternal hell is an expression of love. That’s just so sad.

You lost me Nathan.

The bit about “you will meet the Lord in the air” is in Thessalonians, not Isaiah. Isn’t it used with “one will be taken, another left” Matt 24 as evidence for the “rapture”?

Personally, I think those verses are not describing a broadscale future event alla Jerry Jenkins “Left Behind”. I think they describe what happens at physical death. I may be working somewhere (in a field?) and the guy next has a massive heart attack and dies. He is taken, I am left. He heard the trumpet sound and he met the Lord in the air. Not my time yet.

What is italicized is what “they” posted.

For me, that would still be a literal application rather than spiritual. For me, to say “spiritual application” refers to “inward” application. What he was trying to say in the original post was that there’s a 2000 year gap between verse one of the Isaiah passage and verse two . . .even though Jesus sat down immediately after reading that and proclaimed ALL OF IT had come to pass THEN before THEIR very eyes. Nothing about a 2000 year gap from one to another. I haven’t gotten any responses to it on the other forum yet . . .will let it soak for a while and check it in the morning to see what we catch!!

I think that’s an excellent observation, and I wish more futurists picked up on it. In Daniel 12:4 we read of how the angel Gabriel told Daniel to “shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end.” But as you note, the angel who spoke to the apostle John told him the exact opposite of what Gabriel told Daniel: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near” (Rev 22:10). Thus, what was still in the distant future in Daniel’s day had become “near” by the time John received his visions. Daniel prophesied about 600 years before John wrote the Revelation. If Daniel’s prophecy was sealed up because the events were 600 years distant, and if the prophecy in the Revelation was not allowed to be sealed because the time of its fulfillment was at hand, is it at all reasonable to suppose its fulfillment is yet future, after nearly 2,000 years have passed?

And then there are, of course, all the other time-indicators John gives us in Revelation which presuppose that the events of which he is speaking would commence, and begin to be fulfilled, during the lifetimes of those 1st-century Christians to whom he wrote:

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must soon take place” (Rev 1:1)

“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near” (Rev 1:3).

“Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this” (Rev 1:19).

“Behold, I am coming soon! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown” (Rev 3:11).

“Then he said to me, ‘These words are faithful and true.’ And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must soon take place. ‘Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book’” (Rev 22:6-7).

“And he said to me, ‘Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand’” (Rev 22:10).

“And behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone according to his work” (Rev 22:12).

“He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!” (Rev 22:20)

I’m still lost. Why is the thread title “A couple questions about the Rapture and hell” if your dispute is with their 2000 year gap between Isaiah 61:1 and Isaiah 61:2. I’m not seeing the connection :question:

Perhaps if you change your thread title to:

you might get more responses.

“Is there a 2000 year gap between Isaiah 61:1 and Isaiah 61:2?”

Absolutely not! :smiley:

the subject isn’t “just” about whether or not there’s a gap, that was only one aspect. But it was also touching on the claim of who the angels were talking to at the ascension and why Jesus made a connection with the days of Noah and the coming of the Son of man. Mainline churches connect all of those things to a rapture. I almost made the title “preaching to the choir” but I thought that would be too broad as well.

And Aaron, I agree with your post as well! In fact, you could take it a step further about the Daniel prophecy being sealed . . .John’s prophecy seeing the Lamb as though it had been slain breaking the seal . . …I believe when Jesus reached back to Daniel’s prophecy in Matthew 24, “that” was when the seal on Daniel’s vision and John’s vision was broken.

Daniel saw, wrote and sealed. The first thing John encountered was the breaking of the seal, “then” he saw and wrote. It was the same book. It was an unveiling (revelation) epistle of Jesus. Daniel saw the revelation of Jesus but Jesus time hadn’t come so it was sealed. But then when Jesus did come, Jesus himself, being the lamb, literally broke the seal by connecting Daniel’s sealed book with the coming events. So in all actuality, “when” John wrote what he saw, it was a generation after Jesus had been gone. Approximately 40 years, so between what Jesus broke open and what John saw . . .it most definitely had already begun. In fact, if Jerusalem hadn’t already been over-run by the Roman soldiers in A.D. 70, it was on the verge, which for me, is what Daniel’s vision, Matthew 24 and Revelation is all about, the removal of the Old Covenant system in preparation for the new Melchezedek order to be established.

I’ve heard the defense about the fact that the book was to remain open, being the idea that a day is a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day, so even though it may be 2,000 years to us, it’s only been 2 days in God’s eyes so the prophecies are still unfolding. But again, the problem with that thinking is the fact that Daniel was told to seal up what he saw, Jesus comes along 600 years later, opens what Daniel sealed and then John’s instructed to leave it open . . .Jesus had already broken the seal, Which then, with the thousand years as a day principle would make 600 years about 13 hours. So Daniel had to seal a book for 13 hours because it wasn’t time yet, but John’s supposed to have his open because it “was” time, but not really, it was still 2 days away . . .the math doesn’t work anymore. I don’t think leaving it open was so that it could begin, but so that it could end. Which . … once the religious system was removed, the age then did end.

When you were quoting all the passages in Revelation that connected to how soon things were to happen, I was surprised you didn’t quote the passage where John was instructed to (Revelation 1:19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

People get hung up in trying to take this spiritual book and make literal applications. John made it clear what the book is about. It’s not about the destruction of men, it’s about the unveiling of Jesus. And if we’d just back up about 11 verses, we’d understand exactly what it was John was instructed to write . . .it wasn’t about “events”. In verse 8 of this same chapter Jesus proclaimed

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

With me so far? He says he is “who is, was and is to come . . .” Then John is instructed to write about what was, is and is to come . . .that’s why he entitled it "This is a revelation OF JESUS CHRIST. It’s not about events, it’s about the nature of Jesus.

It’s also how I personally read the Bible. I see it in three general ‘dimensions’. Christ “is” the volume of the book. He told the religious people "you guys study the Scriptures so hard because in them you THINK you’ll find eternal life, but THEY POINT TO ME. So when I read the Epistle of Jesus (Bible) I read it the same way he proclaims who he is. I read it historically (that which was) I apply it morally to my “daily” walk (“that which is”) and I pursue it spiritually (“and that which is to come”). You can’t physically “see” spiritual truth, it comes from within. And you can’t see the future either.

READ the stories
APPLY the moral values in each one
but . . .
PURSUE the spiritual truths and treasures for your spiritual substance as spiritual understanding does not come by way of flesh and blood. Not by power not by might but by the spirit . . .the third dimension is always the most intimate, powerful and effective in our relationship with the Father.

Actually, this is something that really happened for thousands of years. The trumpet sound is the Day of YomTeruah (The Day of Blowing) of the trumpet. It is one of the “feasts” (bad English translation). It is the Moad (Appointed time, the appointment made by Yehovah to meet with His people). At the moment Yom Teruah began, the trumpets would sound. There were in the fields, Jews and gentiles. The Jews would leave the fields to meet with God. The gentiles would continue in their work. This text is essentially saying, at the beginning of the last days (which is Yom Teruah), those who are God’s people still alive on the earth and finishing up the work God has given them in this world (after the dead have risen) will also be taken up in the ressurection. While the others are left in the field.

And what happens to those left in the field??? God destroys them like chaff???

My view is that Paul is probably using mixed imagery in 1 Thess 4:16-17 that should perhaps be understood as having been derived from several sources. It’s possible that Paul may have had in mind the trumpets spoken of in Lev 23:23-25 with which the “memorial” and “holy convocation” was “proclaimed” on Yom Teruah. But what is the meaning of this observance? We aren’t given many details in Scripture; we know this was to be a day of “solemn rest” and that all “ordinary work” was prohibited, and that a food offering was to be presented to YHWH. It’s possible that this was meant to be a day of public prayer. According to the commentary by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, “Jewish writers say that the trumpets were sounded thirty successive times, and the reason for the institution was for the double purpose of announcing the commencement of the new year, which was to be religiously observed (see Num 29:3), and of preparing the people for the approaching solemn feast.” But there is nothing said about Jews working in the fields when the trumpets sounded and leaving their Gentile fellow laborers to continue laboring. And I’m not sure why there would even be Jews working in the fields on this solemn holy day, since all ordinary work (as I assume working in the fields would’ve been considered) was prohibited on this day.

In addition to Lev 23:23-25, there are many other places in the OT that speak of the sounding of a trumpet or trumpets (e.g., Ex 19:13-19, Lev 25:9, Josh 6:5-20, Judges 6:34, 1 Sam 13:3, 2 Sam 2:28, Neh 4:20, Jer 4:19 or Zech 9:14; etc.). The trumpet imagery in 1 Thess 4 seems to convey more of the idea of an enemy being conquered than of anything else, which means Paul may have had in mind the trumpets that sounded to warn the enemy or rally the troops in anticipation of a military victory (which a number of OT verses speaking of trumpets have in view). Notice how Paul associates the sounding of the trumpet at this future time with Jesus’ “cry of command” and “the voice of an archangel,” and how in 1 Cor 15 the sounding of the “last trumpet” is associated with the abolishing of the “last enemy,” death, when all of Jesus’ enemies are put under his feet (for it is at the sounding of the last trumpet that “death is swallowed up in victory” - vv. 51-54).

Which leads me to another point: After the “trumpet” of which Paul speaks in 1 Thess 4 sounds (i.e., the “last trumpet”), there will be no more “Gentile sinners” left to be (in a figurative sense) “working in the fields.” While I have no doubt that the trumpets sounding in ancient Israel on Yom Teruah would’ve gone unheeded by any unbelievers who might’ve heard them, I don’t think this will be the case when the “last trumpet” sounds. When this happens, there won’t be any rebels left to be left behind. How do I know this? Because after the last trumpet sounds, every rule and every authority and power will have been abolished, and “all things” (i.e., the universe) will have been subjected to Christ. The “last enemy to be abolished is death,” and it’s evident that the abolishing of death, its being “swallowed up in victory” and the sounding of the “last trumpet” all refer to the same event. When the “last trumpet” sounds, all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ. But if the last enemy to be abolished is death, then this can only mean that all other enemies (i.e., all that is embraced in Paul’s words “every rule and every authority and power”) will have been “abolished.” So when the “last enemy” is abolished/swallowed up in victory at the sounding of the “last trumpet,” there will be no remaining enemies that haven’t been put under Christ’s feet, and nothing that hasn’t been subjected to him. That Paul understood the resurrection of the dead/change of the living to be closely associated with the subjection of all things to Christ seems evident not only from 1 Cor 15 but also from Phil 3:20-21: “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.” IOW, the same power by which Christ is going to raise the dead and change the living at the “last trumpet” will also subject all things to himself.

Moreover, according to John 6:39, being raised up by Jesus on the “last day” is the common blessing of all who have been given to Christ by the Father. But how many have been given to Christ? Is it not all people (John 3:35; 13:3; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22; Ps 2:8; Heb 1:2) - i.e., everyone of whom Jesus was made “Lord” (Acts 10:36; Rom 10:9; 14:7-9)? To not be raised up by Christ on the “last day” would mean that one had been “lost” by him. If Christ is to lose any of those given to him by his Father, then it would mean he had failed to accomplish the mission on which his Father sent him. But since Christ has been given all authority in heaven and on earth to accomplish his Father’s will, failure is an impossibility. None will be lost; all who have been given to Christ are to be raised up by him on the “last day,” which is when I believe the “last trumpet” is to sound and the “last enemy” is to be abolished. All things will be “united together” or “summed up” in Christ at this time, and none will be “left behind.”

Actually, this is the time of the harvest of wheat. There is one harvest after these days, the grape harvest. Those left will be gathered as well. How’s that for great UR eschatology? Awesome, huh? :smiley:

Aaron,
Good points. I just noticed you and Nathan respond to me on the thread (I’m still figuring out the forum). I will sit down and spend some time sorting out what you are saying and get back with you soon. Blessings and peace!

Isn’t it also true that a resurrection occurred at pentecost when the Holy Spirit showed up? How does that fit into all of this as well…I’m curious.

Most Jews no longer use God’s way of reckoning time. The new year starts in the month that Passover happens (Exodus 12), not the month of Yom Teruah. Yom Teruah is in the fall and takes place at the beginning of the fall harvests.

You may be correct, Aaron, since Yom Teruah has no fulfillment as of yet (like, say, Passover). It has only so far been associated with the beginning of the fall moad (appointed time)/the judgment day/the harvests.

If your assumptions and interpretation of Scripture are right, you may be correct, Aaron. Eschatology is not extremely easy to discern. This is how I see it;

Yom Teruah is the first day of the 7th month. The first day of a month is decided when the new moon is sighted. If it is cloudy and there is no sighting then it is not the first day of the month and Yom Teruah starts the next day, or whenever the sighting of the new moon takes place. No one knows the day the new moon will be sighted. This is the only Moad that takes place on a new moon, thus making it the only Moad that can not be calculated from the beginning of the month. Approximately, yes but, not for sure. Therefore, no one knows the day or the hour.

The first day of the 7th month is Yom Teruah/ The Last Trump = Resurrection of the Righteous.
Either the first day, or some time up to the 10th day, all “those left” are resurrected during the last harvest (grapes) takes place. Grapes = all people “left” after the righteous are resurrected. - No one is left behind.
The 10th day of the 7th month is Yom Kippur / Day of Atonement = Day of Atonement and Judgment.
The 15th day of the 7th month is Sukkot / Tabernacles = Marriage Feast or Wedding Supper
The 22nd day of the 7th month is HaShanna Rabbah / The Last Great Day/Feast of Conclusion = Armageddon
I think you will find Scripture to line up with these appointed times. Let me know your thoughts. Peace to you!

Greetings, Melchizedek. (I love your user name!)

I hope I am understanding the resurrection you are talking about. Jesus?
Here in Acts 2, it is now Shavuot (Hebrew) = Pentecost (Greek), (Seven Sabbaths after the weekly sabbath that occurs after Passover, plus one day is Shavuot). Peter here, is referring to Jesus’ resurrection which took place on First Fruits. We know Jesus has already risen because, as He said, He had to go to the Father for the Holy Spirit to be sent to the disciples.
Interestingly, this is also the time of the early rain in Israel.
Also, the time of the latter rain is during the fall harvests. Just food for thought.
BTW, also interesting that the Spirit appeared as fire, (fire of God), as, at least some UR people think, that God is the fire of purification (hell). Just saw that, any thoughts?
May His face shine upon you, O Priest of Melchizedek!

:smiley:

But no, I’m referring to where scripture indicates that some rose from the dead and walked around. I thought that was associated with pentecost, but it could’ve been another post resurrection/ ascension event and I’m mis-remembering.

Oh, yes, I think I do know what you mean. That actually happened at the time of Yeshua’s death on the cross. Just after the temple sacrifices of Pesach or Passover. About the ninth hour (about 3:00 in the afternoon), Jesus breathed His last, the temple curtain was torn into, graves were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised (I think it was about 500). I think they were raised, much like Lazarus. They may have been part of the First fruits offering but, I am inclined to say they were not since, they were not raised on First Fruits but, on Passover. Also, Yeshua would have been the first of the First fruits offering to Yehovah.
Wow! Can you just imagine what Caiaphas, the high priest, who oversaw the mock trial of Yeshua must have been going through as he was in the Holy of Holies offering sacrifices that Pesach? Standing there watching a 4 inch thick curtain separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple just rip right down the center, exposing the Ark of the Covenant! He surly must have known what it meant. As bad as he was, I feel sorry for him.

Yeah, I’m thinking God felt sorry for them as well. In fact, I think Jesus may have been implying that when he prayed “Father, forgive them, they have no idea what they’re doing . . .” Then again, maybe God was celebrating the fact that the time had come for it to happen, he removed the veil between the works of the law and the mercy seat. The two became as one. The Holy place and the holy of holies became “one”. So in a sense, you could say it was a wedding! The veil that represents the veil of men’s mind . . .it didn’t rip fromside to side or corner to corner, but from top to bottom . . .signifying the veil being torn from the top of man’s head to the bottom of man’s feet . . .from my thought to my walk . . .on the surface, men sees the destruction of men, but beneath it all, a birthing of a new covenant was taking place. Brick and mortar were no longer restricting where God resided . . .the transition went from tabernacles built by men to living stones formed together by God. “This” is the house that Jesus built/is building/will continue to build.

Oh, right! That’s what I was referring to… I still think it’s interesting. I’ve never heard any pastor preach on this event associated with the crucifixion. I wonder what it signifies…

The dead in christ shall rise first, then those who are His at His coming, and then comes the end… is what came to mind. Not sure what it means, though.