The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A couple questions about the Rapture and hell

I’m still lost. Why is the thread title “A couple questions about the Rapture and hell” if your dispute is with their 2000 year gap between Isaiah 61:1 and Isaiah 61:2. I’m not seeing the connection :question:

Perhaps if you change your thread title to:

you might get more responses.

“Is there a 2000 year gap between Isaiah 61:1 and Isaiah 61:2?”

Absolutely not! :smiley:

the subject isn’t “just” about whether or not there’s a gap, that was only one aspect. But it was also touching on the claim of who the angels were talking to at the ascension and why Jesus made a connection with the days of Noah and the coming of the Son of man. Mainline churches connect all of those things to a rapture. I almost made the title “preaching to the choir” but I thought that would be too broad as well.

And Aaron, I agree with your post as well! In fact, you could take it a step further about the Daniel prophecy being sealed . . .John’s prophecy seeing the Lamb as though it had been slain breaking the seal . . …I believe when Jesus reached back to Daniel’s prophecy in Matthew 24, “that” was when the seal on Daniel’s vision and John’s vision was broken.

Daniel saw, wrote and sealed. The first thing John encountered was the breaking of the seal, “then” he saw and wrote. It was the same book. It was an unveiling (revelation) epistle of Jesus. Daniel saw the revelation of Jesus but Jesus time hadn’t come so it was sealed. But then when Jesus did come, Jesus himself, being the lamb, literally broke the seal by connecting Daniel’s sealed book with the coming events. So in all actuality, “when” John wrote what he saw, it was a generation after Jesus had been gone. Approximately 40 years, so between what Jesus broke open and what John saw . . .it most definitely had already begun. In fact, if Jerusalem hadn’t already been over-run by the Roman soldiers in A.D. 70, it was on the verge, which for me, is what Daniel’s vision, Matthew 24 and Revelation is all about, the removal of the Old Covenant system in preparation for the new Melchezedek order to be established.

I’ve heard the defense about the fact that the book was to remain open, being the idea that a day is a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day, so even though it may be 2,000 years to us, it’s only been 2 days in God’s eyes so the prophecies are still unfolding. But again, the problem with that thinking is the fact that Daniel was told to seal up what he saw, Jesus comes along 600 years later, opens what Daniel sealed and then John’s instructed to leave it open . . .Jesus had already broken the seal, Which then, with the thousand years as a day principle would make 600 years about 13 hours. So Daniel had to seal a book for 13 hours because it wasn’t time yet, but John’s supposed to have his open because it “was” time, but not really, it was still 2 days away . . .the math doesn’t work anymore. I don’t think leaving it open was so that it could begin, but so that it could end. Which . … once the religious system was removed, the age then did end.

When you were quoting all the passages in Revelation that connected to how soon things were to happen, I was surprised you didn’t quote the passage where John was instructed to (Revelation 1:19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

People get hung up in trying to take this spiritual book and make literal applications. John made it clear what the book is about. It’s not about the destruction of men, it’s about the unveiling of Jesus. And if we’d just back up about 11 verses, we’d understand exactly what it was John was instructed to write . . .it wasn’t about “events”. In verse 8 of this same chapter Jesus proclaimed

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

With me so far? He says he is “who is, was and is to come . . .” Then John is instructed to write about what was, is and is to come . . .that’s why he entitled it "This is a revelation OF JESUS CHRIST. It’s not about events, it’s about the nature of Jesus.

It’s also how I personally read the Bible. I see it in three general ‘dimensions’. Christ “is” the volume of the book. He told the religious people "you guys study the Scriptures so hard because in them you THINK you’ll find eternal life, but THEY POINT TO ME. So when I read the Epistle of Jesus (Bible) I read it the same way he proclaims who he is. I read it historically (that which was) I apply it morally to my “daily” walk (“that which is”) and I pursue it spiritually (“and that which is to come”). You can’t physically “see” spiritual truth, it comes from within. And you can’t see the future either.

READ the stories
APPLY the moral values in each one
but . . .
PURSUE the spiritual truths and treasures for your spiritual substance as spiritual understanding does not come by way of flesh and blood. Not by power not by might but by the spirit . . .the third dimension is always the most intimate, powerful and effective in our relationship with the Father.

Actually, this is something that really happened for thousands of years. The trumpet sound is the Day of YomTeruah (The Day of Blowing) of the trumpet. It is one of the “feasts” (bad English translation). It is the Moad (Appointed time, the appointment made by Yehovah to meet with His people). At the moment Yom Teruah began, the trumpets would sound. There were in the fields, Jews and gentiles. The Jews would leave the fields to meet with God. The gentiles would continue in their work. This text is essentially saying, at the beginning of the last days (which is Yom Teruah), those who are God’s people still alive on the earth and finishing up the work God has given them in this world (after the dead have risen) will also be taken up in the ressurection. While the others are left in the field.

And what happens to those left in the field??? God destroys them like chaff???

My view is that Paul is probably using mixed imagery in 1 Thess 4:16-17 that should perhaps be understood as having been derived from several sources. It’s possible that Paul may have had in mind the trumpets spoken of in Lev 23:23-25 with which the “memorial” and “holy convocation” was “proclaimed” on Yom Teruah. But what is the meaning of this observance? We aren’t given many details in Scripture; we know this was to be a day of “solemn rest” and that all “ordinary work” was prohibited, and that a food offering was to be presented to YHWH. It’s possible that this was meant to be a day of public prayer. According to the commentary by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, “Jewish writers say that the trumpets were sounded thirty successive times, and the reason for the institution was for the double purpose of announcing the commencement of the new year, which was to be religiously observed (see Num 29:3), and of preparing the people for the approaching solemn feast.” But there is nothing said about Jews working in the fields when the trumpets sounded and leaving their Gentile fellow laborers to continue laboring. And I’m not sure why there would even be Jews working in the fields on this solemn holy day, since all ordinary work (as I assume working in the fields would’ve been considered) was prohibited on this day.

In addition to Lev 23:23-25, there are many other places in the OT that speak of the sounding of a trumpet or trumpets (e.g., Ex 19:13-19, Lev 25:9, Josh 6:5-20, Judges 6:34, 1 Sam 13:3, 2 Sam 2:28, Neh 4:20, Jer 4:19 or Zech 9:14; etc.). The trumpet imagery in 1 Thess 4 seems to convey more of the idea of an enemy being conquered than of anything else, which means Paul may have had in mind the trumpets that sounded to warn the enemy or rally the troops in anticipation of a military victory (which a number of OT verses speaking of trumpets have in view). Notice how Paul associates the sounding of the trumpet at this future time with Jesus’ “cry of command” and “the voice of an archangel,” and how in 1 Cor 15 the sounding of the “last trumpet” is associated with the abolishing of the “last enemy,” death, when all of Jesus’ enemies are put under his feet (for it is at the sounding of the last trumpet that “death is swallowed up in victory” - vv. 51-54).

Which leads me to another point: After the “trumpet” of which Paul speaks in 1 Thess 4 sounds (i.e., the “last trumpet”), there will be no more “Gentile sinners” left to be (in a figurative sense) “working in the fields.” While I have no doubt that the trumpets sounding in ancient Israel on Yom Teruah would’ve gone unheeded by any unbelievers who might’ve heard them, I don’t think this will be the case when the “last trumpet” sounds. When this happens, there won’t be any rebels left to be left behind. How do I know this? Because after the last trumpet sounds, every rule and every authority and power will have been abolished, and “all things” (i.e., the universe) will have been subjected to Christ. The “last enemy to be abolished is death,” and it’s evident that the abolishing of death, its being “swallowed up in victory” and the sounding of the “last trumpet” all refer to the same event. When the “last trumpet” sounds, all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ. But if the last enemy to be abolished is death, then this can only mean that all other enemies (i.e., all that is embraced in Paul’s words “every rule and every authority and power”) will have been “abolished.” So when the “last enemy” is abolished/swallowed up in victory at the sounding of the “last trumpet,” there will be no remaining enemies that haven’t been put under Christ’s feet, and nothing that hasn’t been subjected to him. That Paul understood the resurrection of the dead/change of the living to be closely associated with the subjection of all things to Christ seems evident not only from 1 Cor 15 but also from Phil 3:20-21: “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.” IOW, the same power by which Christ is going to raise the dead and change the living at the “last trumpet” will also subject all things to himself.

Moreover, according to John 6:39, being raised up by Jesus on the “last day” is the common blessing of all who have been given to Christ by the Father. But how many have been given to Christ? Is it not all people (John 3:35; 13:3; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22; Ps 2:8; Heb 1:2) - i.e., everyone of whom Jesus was made “Lord” (Acts 10:36; Rom 10:9; 14:7-9)? To not be raised up by Christ on the “last day” would mean that one had been “lost” by him. If Christ is to lose any of those given to him by his Father, then it would mean he had failed to accomplish the mission on which his Father sent him. But since Christ has been given all authority in heaven and on earth to accomplish his Father’s will, failure is an impossibility. None will be lost; all who have been given to Christ are to be raised up by him on the “last day,” which is when I believe the “last trumpet” is to sound and the “last enemy” is to be abolished. All things will be “united together” or “summed up” in Christ at this time, and none will be “left behind.”

Actually, this is the time of the harvest of wheat. There is one harvest after these days, the grape harvest. Those left will be gathered as well. How’s that for great UR eschatology? Awesome, huh? :smiley:

Aaron,
Good points. I just noticed you and Nathan respond to me on the thread (I’m still figuring out the forum). I will sit down and spend some time sorting out what you are saying and get back with you soon. Blessings and peace!

Isn’t it also true that a resurrection occurred at pentecost when the Holy Spirit showed up? How does that fit into all of this as well…I’m curious.

Most Jews no longer use God’s way of reckoning time. The new year starts in the month that Passover happens (Exodus 12), not the month of Yom Teruah. Yom Teruah is in the fall and takes place at the beginning of the fall harvests.

You may be correct, Aaron, since Yom Teruah has no fulfillment as of yet (like, say, Passover). It has only so far been associated with the beginning of the fall moad (appointed time)/the judgment day/the harvests.

If your assumptions and interpretation of Scripture are right, you may be correct, Aaron. Eschatology is not extremely easy to discern. This is how I see it;

Yom Teruah is the first day of the 7th month. The first day of a month is decided when the new moon is sighted. If it is cloudy and there is no sighting then it is not the first day of the month and Yom Teruah starts the next day, or whenever the sighting of the new moon takes place. No one knows the day the new moon will be sighted. This is the only Moad that takes place on a new moon, thus making it the only Moad that can not be calculated from the beginning of the month. Approximately, yes but, not for sure. Therefore, no one knows the day or the hour.

The first day of the 7th month is Yom Teruah/ The Last Trump = Resurrection of the Righteous.
Either the first day, or some time up to the 10th day, all “those left” are resurrected during the last harvest (grapes) takes place. Grapes = all people “left” after the righteous are resurrected. - No one is left behind.
The 10th day of the 7th month is Yom Kippur / Day of Atonement = Day of Atonement and Judgment.
The 15th day of the 7th month is Sukkot / Tabernacles = Marriage Feast or Wedding Supper
The 22nd day of the 7th month is HaShanna Rabbah / The Last Great Day/Feast of Conclusion = Armageddon
I think you will find Scripture to line up with these appointed times. Let me know your thoughts. Peace to you!

Greetings, Melchizedek. (I love your user name!)

I hope I am understanding the resurrection you are talking about. Jesus?
Here in Acts 2, it is now Shavuot (Hebrew) = Pentecost (Greek), (Seven Sabbaths after the weekly sabbath that occurs after Passover, plus one day is Shavuot). Peter here, is referring to Jesus’ resurrection which took place on First Fruits. We know Jesus has already risen because, as He said, He had to go to the Father for the Holy Spirit to be sent to the disciples.
Interestingly, this is also the time of the early rain in Israel.
Also, the time of the latter rain is during the fall harvests. Just food for thought.
BTW, also interesting that the Spirit appeared as fire, (fire of God), as, at least some UR people think, that God is the fire of purification (hell). Just saw that, any thoughts?
May His face shine upon you, O Priest of Melchizedek!

:smiley:

But no, I’m referring to where scripture indicates that some rose from the dead and walked around. I thought that was associated with pentecost, but it could’ve been another post resurrection/ ascension event and I’m mis-remembering.

Oh, yes, I think I do know what you mean. That actually happened at the time of Yeshua’s death on the cross. Just after the temple sacrifices of Pesach or Passover. About the ninth hour (about 3:00 in the afternoon), Jesus breathed His last, the temple curtain was torn into, graves were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised (I think it was about 500). I think they were raised, much like Lazarus. They may have been part of the First fruits offering but, I am inclined to say they were not since, they were not raised on First Fruits but, on Passover. Also, Yeshua would have been the first of the First fruits offering to Yehovah.
Wow! Can you just imagine what Caiaphas, the high priest, who oversaw the mock trial of Yeshua must have been going through as he was in the Holy of Holies offering sacrifices that Pesach? Standing there watching a 4 inch thick curtain separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple just rip right down the center, exposing the Ark of the Covenant! He surly must have known what it meant. As bad as he was, I feel sorry for him.

Yeah, I’m thinking God felt sorry for them as well. In fact, I think Jesus may have been implying that when he prayed “Father, forgive them, they have no idea what they’re doing . . .” Then again, maybe God was celebrating the fact that the time had come for it to happen, he removed the veil between the works of the law and the mercy seat. The two became as one. The Holy place and the holy of holies became “one”. So in a sense, you could say it was a wedding! The veil that represents the veil of men’s mind . . .it didn’t rip fromside to side or corner to corner, but from top to bottom . . .signifying the veil being torn from the top of man’s head to the bottom of man’s feet . . .from my thought to my walk . . .on the surface, men sees the destruction of men, but beneath it all, a birthing of a new covenant was taking place. Brick and mortar were no longer restricting where God resided . . .the transition went from tabernacles built by men to living stones formed together by God. “This” is the house that Jesus built/is building/will continue to build.

Oh, right! That’s what I was referring to… I still think it’s interesting. I’ve never heard any pastor preach on this event associated with the crucifixion. I wonder what it signifies…

The dead in christ shall rise first, then those who are His at His coming, and then comes the end… is what came to mind. Not sure what it means, though.

Hi Nathan
I’ve just come across this thread and would like to take a look at your OP where you state that the text in Acts says that those standing there will, themselves, see Jesus return in like manner (you even put it in capitals). But that’s not what the text says - is it?

Acts 1
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as **ye have seen him go **into heaven.

New Living Translation
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way **you **saw him go!”

Amplified
11Who said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, Who was caught away and lifted up **from among you **into heaven, will return in [just] the same way in which **you saw **Him go into heaven.

They all say the same thing . . .there’s no indication that he’s telling them in the far disant future, to another generation …like he told Daniel when he was to seal up the book. That’s not here. He was taken “from them” and just as “they saw” him go, he’ll return. To think that he’s telling “them” that he’ll return 2,000 years later is just not substantiated here.

I don’t know why you would imply I haven’t read it before now. He was talking directly “to them” about when Jesus left and how he’ll return “to them”. If you wish to see it another way, feel free to do so.

Yes. They all support my point. They all say that Jesus will return in the same way they saw Him go. They do not say that those people will witness the return. They do not say what you wrote in your OP.

I agree.

I never said it was. Please don’t invent strawmen. What is also not substantiated here, is that those particular witnesses will also be alive to witness His return.

I didn’t. I don’t know why you would state that I did.

The second ‘to them’ is not true. I’m surprised at you Nathan.

Its not a question of me seeing it a different way and I don’t need your permission to feel free. It’s a matter of me not being prepared to add to the text what is not there.
In your first post, you even put in quotes:

It does not say “you shall see Him return” - just look at the translations you posted! Not one of them says that or even implies it.
You told another poster to ‘pay more attention’ with reference to eisegesis but you are guilty of it yourself.
With regards Jesus’ return, I am not insisting (from Acts 1) that the text either excludes nor includes the people standing there - because the text does neither.

If the angels were not implying that “they’d” see him return as they saw him go … .then why did they say what they did? Why did they even bring it up? If someone told me directly this same thing, I would be expecting it to happen to me, not to some other generation because there was no indication that it was to happen generations later. “Just as you saw him go, he’ll also return . . .”

Just because “you” choose not to see it as a message that was directed “to them”, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t. But to say that it wasn’t to them but to some other generation is then jumping to conclusions because it “doesn’t” specify that. The reason why I brought it up in the first place is because traditional thought uses this passage as it’s proof that Jesus is returning “in the flesh”. And my response was, if you’re still expecting him to come in the flesh because of that passage, it means the angels lied to those they were speaking to. Just as YOU saw him go, he’ll be coming back . . …that’s still something directed to the people standing there . .regardless as to whether or not the author added anothere “to you”.

*I don’t know why you would imply I haven’t read it before now.

I didn’t. I don’t know why you would state that I did.*
Because you came back with the question "but that’s not what it says . . .is it??? Which indicates that I didn’t read it in the first place. Again . . .we see it differently.

That’s a reasonable question. There may be many reasons. For example, they may still have been expecting Jesus to immediately overthrow the Romans and set up His earthly kingdom, so when they saw Him leave, they were shocked - it’s not what they expected. Had He finished with the earth? Was he handing it over to satan? The angels reassured them that He would return to earth in physical form one day.

I DO see it as a message directed to them. The message was ‘He will return in like manner as they saw Him leave’.

I repeat, it WAS to them

“In like manner” does imply a physical manifestation, yes.

-seems reasonable.

No! The angels NEVER said that those standing there would witness His return

yes

indeed

No. You’re giving only one possible interpretation. There is no proof in the Acts 1 text that Jesus was to return to those standing there and please don’t keep saying that I’m turning the angels into liars - I’m not.

No it doesn’t and I don’t believe I used 3 question marks.

You’ve no idea what interpretation I give to the text. I’m just not prepared to pretend that the text says something it doesn’t.
I don’t think it profitable to continue going over the same ground. If you regard your eisegesis to be more important than other things, then that’s where you are on your journey and I wish you well. You are my brother in Christ and I really value much in your ministry.
May God continue to bless it.
Good day.