A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection belief

Dialogue on the Second Coming of Jesus and eternity.

A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection belief

Postby qaz » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:11 am

Regarding a New Earth (as opposed to heaven), I think there is a logistical problem; so many people have already lived and died, there wouldn't be room for everyone to live comfortably on this planet. The sheer number of people to be resurrected might preclude a comfortable future life on Earth. With that said, I am open to the idea. However, I am a full preterist, and as such do not think an Earth-changing event will happen. Of course I could be wrong.
qaz
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:14 pm

qaz wrote:Regarding a New Earth (as opposed to heaven), I think there is a logistical problem; so many people have already lived and died, there wouldn't be room for everyone to live comfortably on this planet. The sheer number of people to be resurrected might preclude a comfortable future life on Earth. With that said, I am open to the idea. However, I am a full preterist, and as such do not think an Earth-changing event will happen. Of course I could be wrong.


Well, a "traditional" Christian answer, is that most people - will end up in hell. The rest will be in heaven, with some staying in the new earth. :roll:

Do you ever watch the BBC TV show Dr. Who? Well, he's a time lord - who travels in time, in a machine called the Tardis. Well, it looks the size of a UK police call box. But inside, it is huge.

So what does this mean?

If God creates a new heaven and a new earth...it doesn't mean God will keep, the same scientific laws or rules - that govern our current universe. I'm sure God is aware, of the population statistics you propose. The new earth could be akin to Alice in Wonderland. Where we can do all the mystic stuff you read about, in biographies of mystics, saints and shamans.

Image

Well, folks can provide different theories - to fit what is written. Like a current article, from the Protestant site Patheos:


Let me quote a bit from it:

Others theorize that creation did not happen in six days, but was revealed in six days. This would include John Walton’s cosmic temple theory (see his book The Lost World of Genesis One), which I find to be faithful and well-argued, but unconvincing for me. His theory affirms that God creates all from nothing, but that the six days are actually about God organizing it all into the parts of God’s cosmic temple.

Meredith Kline, one of my professors at Gordon-Conwell, offers another version of the six-day revealing of creation: the framework hypothesis. Kline observes that plants are created on the third day, but the heavenly bodies are not created until the fourth day. He sees the order of the six days as not chronological, but topical. He sees the first three days as creation-kingdoms: the heavens, air and water, dry land and plants. During the second three days, God creates the kings who rule those realms: heavenly bodies, air and water creatures, and land mammals, including the creature appointed to rule them all.

I lean toward either the framework hypothesis, or the so-called “day-age” theory. I can see an account of gradual creation in Genesis 1, similar to what a secular scientist would suggest. We start with an event like the Big Bang, where light and matter come into existence. The atmosphere forms (see next blog post), then the continents and plant life, then we capture the moon into our orbit, then aquatic life and flying insects (Pennsylvanian period?), then animals of the Jurassic and Cenozoic periods, with a pronounced break between these and the appearance of a creature made in the image of God.


In case you don't recognize it - here's the Tardis, folks.

Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Joel Osteen fan;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Red Road, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2825
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Paidion » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:37 pm

Regarding a New Earth (as opposed to heaven), I think there is a logistical problem; so many people have already lived and died, there wouldn't be room for everyone to live comfortably on this planet. The sheer number of people to be resurrected might preclude a comfortable future life on Earth.


If it's a New Earth, why couldn't it be a much larger earth?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
User avatar
Paidion
 
Posts: 4116
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: The Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby qaz » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:55 pm

Paidion, isn't your belief that resurrection will take place here on this Earth?

Also, I've read some people (taking a literal interpretation of Revelation) say there will be no sea when we are resurrected. Do you believe that? That's very sad if true, because I love the ocean.
qaz
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Paidion » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:58 pm

There's not enough in the memoirs of Christ and of the apostolic writings to arrive at definitive answers. As for the Apocalypse, it is about a vision that man named "John" experienced. I don't think doctrines can be deduced from that vision.

In Jude and 2nd Peter, the first "heavens and earth" are replaced by "new heavens and earth." This leaves room for a larger earth.
But OT prophecies seem to predict a restored earth. Even that could be restored as larger than the present state of the earth.

I don't think it rational to predict that "there will be no sea" on the restored earth or the "new" earth for that matter. John is simply describing what he saw in his vision, not prophesying about future events.

We read in Chapter 21 and 22:

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—
13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.
16 The city lies foursquare; its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal.
17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel’s measurement.
18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass.
19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald,
20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.
22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
1 ¶ Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.


I suppose these verses taken as written above could be understood to be a literal description of "The New Jerusalem" to be experienced in the future—or perhaps after death. But verse 9 that introduces this part of John's vision precludes that interpretation. In fact it settles the matter that the whole account is figurative.

9 ¶ Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”


So this whole account is not about a city at all, but is a figurative description of the Bride of Christ.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
User avatar
Paidion
 
Posts: 4116
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: The Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Origen; » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:45 am

Personally i'm going to recline on the seas like a waterbed, as Jesus walking on the water.

I'm planning to live in the oceans & create an underwater Atlantis at the bottom of the deepest of the deeps.

I imagine others will be building mansions at the heights of Mt Everest, enjoy the view floating on clouds, or to go boldly where no man has gone before, exploring the universe.

"Saline water covers approximately 360,000,000 km2 (140,000,000 sq mi) and is customarily divided into several principal oceans and smaller seas, with the ocean covering approximately 71% of Earth's surface and 90% of the Earth's biosphere.[6] The ocean contains 97% of Earth's water, and oceanographers have stated that less than 5% of the World Ocean has been explored...

"As the world ocean is the principal component of Earth's hydrosphere, it is integral to all known life, forms part of the carbon cycle, and influences climate and weather patterns. The world ocean is the habitat of 230,000 known species, but because much of it is unexplored, the number of species that exist is much larger, possibly over two million."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Origen; » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:07 am

qaz wrote:Also, I've read some people (taking a literal interpretation of Revelation) say there will be no sea when we are resurrected. Do you believe that? That's very sad if true, because I love the ocean.


Revelation 20-22 says there will be no more sea. I don't recall it mentioning any waterfalls, rain, clouds or oceans. There will be a river in the New Jerusalem. And a lake of fire outside of it.

Even if there were no oceans, God could allow a type of virtual reality experience of them in our minds. Or create something like the holodeck on one or more of the Star Trek series, at least the one called Voyager with Captain Janeway. Youtube may have some video clips of that.
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby qaz » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:53 am

Origen, I think the big question is whether or not the "sea" spoken of is literal.
qaz
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:22 am

qaz wrote:Origen, I think the big question is whether or not the "sea" spoken of is literal.


My favorite discussion - on page 1 of Google - is at https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/will-heaven-have-oceans

John MacArthur goes further, interpreting the absence of “the sea” as implying the absence of all physical water (H2O) anywhere, in any form, on the new earth:


On the other hand, Randy Alcorn,...He suggests that the “core meaning” of Revelation 21:1 is that “there will be no more of the cold, treacherous waters that separate nations, destroy ships, and drown our loved ones. There will be no more creatures swallowing up seafarers and no more poisoned salt waters.”[4] In a cosmos purged of pollution, salt water would no longer be needed to serve as a global antiseptic, so perhaps the “sea” that is “no more” refers only to salt water oceans. In the new earth “[h]uge lakes could, in effect, be freshwater oceans,” teeming with sea life.[5]


So, even in a "literal" interpretation - there is much difference of opinion.

Or perhaps we need to look at the "historical context" - like these two chaps are discussing :?:

Last edited by Holy-Fool-P-Zombie on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Joel Osteen fan;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Red Road, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2825
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby qaz » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:10 am

Randy, I find much evangelical exegesis leaves a lot to be desired.

What do YOU think about the possibility of the ocean existing in heaven / new earth?
qaz
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:34 pm

qaz wrote:Randy, I find much evangelical exegesis leaves a lot to be desired.

What do YOU think about the possibility of the ocean existing in heaven / new earth?


Well, if you find that "much evangelical exegesis leaves a lot to be desired" - can YOU do any better?

Ocean in heaven? Probably not. In the new earth? Sure. Why not? There are a lot of different takes, on both the literal and figurative meaning of sea - in Revelations. And why would God leave out bodies of water, when most of the non-human inhabitants - probably live there?

But is what the "sea" means in Revelations - an "earth-shattering" event - you need a definitive answer for? Sounds more like "how many angels can dance, on the head of a pin" - type of question,

Or NO. This is TERRIBLE. Simple TERRIBLE.

Weill, I signed up for BOTH the evangelical and Catholic newsletters at http://www.patheos.com/. And here's what came my way - in today's Evangelical newsletter:


Am I reading a story, from one of the supermarket tabloids? :o :shock: Let me quote a bit:

Over half of American Protestants (52%) believe that salvation–that is to say, getting into Heaven–requires a combination of both faith and good works. This is the Roman Catholic position.

Over half of American Protestants (52%, but not the same 52% as above) believe that the Bible is not the only sufficient authority for the church. The Bible must be supplemented by church teachings and church tradition. This is the Roman Catholic position.


And people find me strange. When I call myself a "Charismatic Eastern Anglo-Catholic and Holy Fool".

Anyway, back to the sea in Revelations.

Let's do a little experiment. And let'ls look up sea, in a Bible dictionary at http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sea/. If sea has a literal meaning in Revelations, then which one do we apply?

The sea, yam , is used in Scripture to denote--

    "The gathering of the waters," "the Ocean." ( Genesis 1:2 Genesis 1:10 ; 30:13 ) etc
.
    Some portion of this, as the Mediterranean Sea, called the "hinder," the "western" and the "utmost" sea, ( 11:24 ; 34:2 ; Joel 2:20 ) "sea of the Philistines," ( Exodus 23:31 ) "the great sea," ( Numbers 36:6 Numbers 36:7 ; Joshua 15:47 ) "the sea." Genesis49:13; Psal 80:11 Also frequently of the Red Sea. ( Exodus 15:4 ) [RED SEA]
    Inland lakes termed seas, as the Salt or Dead Sea. [See the special article]
    Any great collection of waters, as the river Nile ( Isaiah 19:5 ) and the Euphrates. ( Jeremiah 51:36 )


Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Joel Osteen fan;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Red Road, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2825
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby sven » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:04 am

If we believe humanity "started" about 6000 years ago and the end is near and we take Revelations literally that there will be no more sea than numbers like 30-50 billion people could live on the earth, more people have never lived I think, I am not sure about the numbers but you must consider that most of the earth now is covered by water (I think 70%), also imagine the deserts all gone.

Somebody who is better in maths than I am could calculate that:

2 men 6000 years ago, 6 billion now, exponential growth, how many people have lived so far?

Those who would miss the ocean, do you think a large lake wouldn't suffice? I would miss motorways but I am pretty much sure there will be no more motorways in the world to come, but I'm pretty sure I will not bother then.
sven
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:33 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:45 pm

Here's the question:
Can you explain why there is "no more sea"in Revelation 21:1


I asked this of the Calvinist site - Got Questions. Here is their answer:

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there and there was no longer any sea.` (New International Version). This verse must be understood in the context of the book of Revelation. Chapters four through eighteen predict the tribulation period of seven years. Then is the detailed depiction of the second coming of Jesus Christ to the future eternal state. (chapters 19-22). In this passage is the prophecy of the millennium (the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth (20:4-6). Following this will be the Great White Throne judgment and the present heaven and earth are destroyed. (Rev. 20:11-15, 2 Peter 3:10-12). Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13). What follows is the eternal state (Rev. 21:1- 22:5).

Evidently, the new earth will have a completely different environment and climatic conditions. As of now three-fourths of the earth is water. In the future earth there will be no need for `the sea, vast and spacious` (Psalm 104:25) The sea speaks of separation and in the eternal state there is no need for separation. However, there will still be water (Rev. 22:1) as a symbol of eternal life and blessings in the new earth. All the world will be habitable by God`s children in their resurrected and glorified bodies.
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Joel Osteen fan;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Red Road, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2825
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby LLC » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:43 pm

I think perhaps we may already be in eternity, that is an eternal state of motion and change. I suppose that the only thing that wouldn't change in this case is that God is always there.
LLC
 
Posts: 786
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:45 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby qaz » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:40 am

LLC please check your PM mailbox.
qaz
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby maintenanceman » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:18 pm

LLC wrote:I think perhaps we may already be in eternity, that is an eternal state of motion and change. I suppose that the only thing that wouldn't change in this case is that God is always there.

Hmm, that is a very interesting conclusion ;)
User avatar
maintenanceman
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:22 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby horan » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:16 pm

I don't think it rational to predict that "there will be no sea" on the restored earth or the "new" earth for that matter. John is simply describing what he saw in his vision, not prophesying about future events.

I suspect that John's "there will be no more sea" means that there will no longer be a multitude of nations, peoples and tongues.
User avatar
horan
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:45 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby qaz » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:30 am

Thanks Horan, and welcome to the forum. Our resident preterism expert davo has a similar interpretation: Sea = separation = gentiles.
qaz
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby horan » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:40 am

qaz wrote:Thanks Horan, and welcome to the forum. Our resident preterism expert davo has a similar interpretation: Sea = separation = gentiles.


In Revelation we see a beast that arises from the sea, which is directly interpreted as a multitude of nations, peoples and tongues. I suspect that the sea of glass in Revelation 4 and 15 is a similar expression to John's use of the word, sea, in Revelation 21. It might be said to be a reversal of Babel, the dispersion of people who were united by their own will, on God's terms.
User avatar
horan
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:45 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:23 pm

horan wrote:
qaz wrote:Thanks Horan, and welcome to the forum. Our resident preterism expert davo has a similar interpretation: Sea = separation = gentiles.


In Revelation we see a beast that arises from the sea, which is directly interpreted as a multitude of nations, peoples and tongues. I suspect that the sea of glass in Revelation 4 and 15 is a similar expression to John's use of the word, sea, in Revelation 21. It might be said to be a reversal of Babel, the dispersion of people who were united by their own will, on God's terms.


One of the interesting points, of reading the Bible..is when they use figurative language...and when they use literal language. Or to use the words of Anglican Bishop and New Testament scholar, N.T. Wright...he uses the terms concrete and abstract language. If we look at this thread, the folks in the video I presented...look at the sea as what is bad - in NT and OT history (i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtC1vbuG9Uc). But the Got Questions Calvinist site - takes it literally. Personally, I don't think it really matters - in the new creation - whether there is an ocean or not.

Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Joel Osteen fan;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Red Road, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2825
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Chizkiyahu » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:11 pm

To a Hebrew, 'heaven, earth and sea' was identified by Josephus, the Jewish historian in this manner.
Heaven was the Holy of Holies
Earth linen was the Holy Inner Court where the priests performed their duties
Sea was the outer court where the unclean, women and the nations worshiped outside the holy places

In the New Covenant their is no more clean/unclean; male or female; jew or gentile divisions.
We are ALL sons and daughters and have equal access to the Father of our spirits. We have 'been raised and seated in
heavenly places and have free access to our HOLY FATHER.
"My kingdom does not come with your observance; it is WITHIN YOU." Luke 17: 20,21

The old was seen, temporary, external, of the FLESH.
The new is unseen, eternal, internal, of the SPIRIT.

Ask God for wisdom and understanding and he will show you great and marvelous things. The bible is about the dichotomy of
FLESH vs SPIRIT. Two trees, two seeds, two mountains, two women, two cities.

The old SEEN things were types and shadows of the UNSEEN. Now that the NEW has come we no longer should be seeking the SEEN.

Josephus also explains the colors and their meanings. For some strange reason religion discourages inquiry into historical knowledge; however, without it we cannot discern the times that concerned the passing away of the old covenant in the first century and the beginning of all things new. Heb 8:13; 1 Pet 4:7
Chizkiyahu
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:47 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby horan » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:01 am

Chizkiyahu wrote:To a Hebrew, 'heaven, earth and sea' was identified by Josephus, the Jewish historian in this manner.
Heaven was the Holy of Holies
Earth linen was the Holy Inner Court where the priests performed their duties
Sea was the outer court where the unclean, women and the nations worshiped outside the holy places

In the New Covenant their is no more clean/unclean; male or female; jew or gentile divisions.
We are ALL sons and daughters and have equal access to the Father of our spirits. We have 'been raised and seated in
heavenly places and have free access to our HOLY FATHER.
"My kingdom does not come with your observance; it is WITHIN YOU." Luke 17: 20,21

The old was seen, temporary, external, of the FLESH.
The new is unseen, eternal, internal, of the SPIRIT.

Ask God for wisdom and understanding and he will show you great and marvelous things. The bible is about the dichotomy of
FLESH vs SPIRIT. Two trees, two seeds, two mountains, two women, two cities.

The old SEEN things were types and shadows of the UNSEEN. Now that the NEW has come we no longer should be seeking the SEEN.

Josephus also explains the colors and their meanings. For some strange reason religion discourages inquiry into historical knowledge; however, without it we cannot discern the times that concerned the passing away of the old covenant in the first century and the beginning of all things new. Heb 8:13; 1 Pet 4:7


This appears to be a response to the mini-discussion about the meaning of the word 'sea' in Revelation, and how Josephus apparently defines it seems appropriate enough. Revelation defines the sea as a multitude of nations, peoples and tongues, which seems agreeable to likening it to the outer court. When there is no more sea, God will be All in All. The fundamental dichotomy you mention, flesh and spirit, is the story going back to the beginning, my glory or Gods, my will or Gods, etc. "The old SEEN things were types and shadows of the UNSEEN." I wonder if you have a take on the last plagues. I very much suspect these are not literal plagues, but spiritual, and that they've largely already been poured out. Whether that's entirely accurate or not, it seems to me that they must be spiritual issues. Between the sixth and seventh plagues, Jesus reminds us that he comes as a thief; as it were, unexpectedly, which could hardly be the case of those plagues would be literal. I think they are already with us, in evolution theory, occultism and new age, the ecumenical movement, these varieties of modern thought systems which are essentially anti-Christ and undermining of scripture. The Zeitgeist film is an emblematic expression of these things, being embraced by so many, even many Christians, such that the teaching of Jesus comes to fore, while Jesus Himself recedes, and the whole of scripture is reduced to a variety of metaphors for spiritual growth. I suspect that an appropriate label for the seventh plague is globalism, and that this is being poured out as we live and breath. I suspect that the great earthquake is not liberal, but symbolic of great world upheaval, social, political, economic and religious, every island (nation) and mountain (world power) disappearing, being subsumed, surrendering autonomy and sovereignty to a world system. I suspect the great earthquake is right around the corner, almost any day, and that it will so shake things up that the vast multitude will easily and readily accept a world religion, or a variety of approved world religions, excluding biblical Christianity.
User avatar
horan
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:45 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Paidion » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:04 pm

In the original post, qaz wrote:Regarding a New Earth (as opposed to heaven), I think there is a logistical problem; so many people have already lived and died, there wouldn't be room for everyone to live comfortably on this planet.


That presumes that the New Earth will be the same size as the present one. It might be a million times as large or more.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
User avatar
Paidion
 
Posts: 4116
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: The Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby LLC » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:16 am

qaz wrote:LLC please check your PM mailbox.


qaz, Done. Let me know if my reply did not go through.
LLC
 
Posts: 786
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:45 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby qaz » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:52 pm

Paidion, a planet bigger than earth wouldn't be earth. Or do you think maybe the earth will expand?
qaz
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Paidion » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:33 pm

Paidion, a planet bigger than earth wouldn't be earth.


Of course it wouldn't be the earth (this present earth), if the present earth passed away and was replaced by a new earth.

Re 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.


In his vision, John saw that the first heaven and earth PASS AWAY, and then he saw them replaced by the NEW heaven and the NEW earth. So, of course, the new heaven and earth will be different from the old.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
User avatar
Paidion
 
Posts: 4116
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: The Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:47 pm

Paidion wrote:
In his vision, John saw that the first heaven and earth PASS AWAY, and then he saw them replaced by the NEW heaven and the NEW earth. So, of course, the new heaven and earth will be different from the old.


The book is highly symbolic... Why do you think the earth is a symbol for the earth? And why does 'new' have to mean physically new, rather than symbolically new?
Gabe Grinstead
 
Posts: 703
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:55 pm

Re: A logistical problem for the traditional resurrection be

Postby DaveB » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:26 pm

What 'on earth' could a new 'heaven' even be??
I'd prefer a restored earth, the way it should have been before we messed it up.

Revelation is so highly symbolic, so first-century in its context, that I put little stock in our ability to understand it as John's audience did.
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.
DaveB
 
Posts: 4100
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 3:07 pm


Return to Eschatology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests