Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Dialogue on the Second Coming of Jesus and eternity.

Re: Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Postby Paidion » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:02 pm

Steve wrote:Paidion , I may be wrong but have you not said you thought that the Holy Spirit was Christ when Jesus said something like "I must depart so that the Comforter may come" and if that is what you believe could Pentecost be the second coming?


Nope. Not according to what the two angels in white said to the apostles who were watching the ascension of Christ:

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11 NASB. Underlining mine.)


The spirit of Christ coming upon His people on that special day of Pentecost was not "in just the same way." The apostles saw Him visibly as He ascended into heaven. When He returns in just the same way, He will also be visible.
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Re: Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Postby steve7150 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:14 am

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11 NASB. Underlining mine.)


The spirit of Christ coming upon His people on that special day of Pentecost was not "in just the same way." The apostles saw Him visibly as He ascended into heaven. When He returns in just the same way, He will also be visible.







But how do you know "just the same way" refers to his visibility? Couldn't it refer to the speed or direction or some other aspect of his ascension besides visibility?
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Re: Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Postby davo » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:29 pm

Paidion wrote:Surely if Christ had returned in A.D.70 , then at least one Christian writer who had lived through that period would have mentioned it. …

4. Ignatius (A.D.30-107) Fifteen letters are ascribed to him.

    *one Christian writer*
Ignatius to the Magnesians wrote:9:2 …how can we possibly live without him, whom even the prophets, who were his disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? This is why the one for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when he came.

    raised …when He came. Oops!!!! :shock:

steve7150 wrote:But how do you know "just the same way" refers to his visibility? Couldn't it refer to the speed or direction or some other aspect of his ascension besides visibility?

That’s a fair question. As I understand it… Jesus ascended to the Father in “just the same way” i.e., hidden from sight in the clouds (Acts 1:9b), replicating exactly “in like manner” how the Father came (parousia) in judgement as recorded in the OT… in/on clouds of glory/power (Isa 19:1; Joel 2:2; Nah 1:3; Zeph 1:15) — this is classic apocalyptic language describing the execution of divine judgement. This all came to fruition on the OC world of AD70.

Jesus’ cloud coming of Acts 1:9-11 was in fulfillment of Dan 7:3-14 where “coming with the clouds of heaven” was to and not fromthe Ancient of Days’ to receive a kingdom. The “in like manner” equates with the *judgement clouds* associated with the parousia, as per Mt 24:30; 26:64. Again this is keeping and in line with OT apocalyptic language, such as…
Ezek 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; it will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.

Note also… “the time of the Gentiles” (Lk 21:24; Dan 12:7b) — a time designated by God whereby in finality He used Rome to wipe the slate clean of the old covenant régime in AD70.

Christ’s Cross was the DESISIVE event and Christ’s Coming the CULMINATING event. These were God’s book-ends of the one-time redemptive event ON BEHALF OF all Israel (Rom 11:26-27). With Israel redeemed was the world thus reconciled. Israel was God’s firstfruits ON BEHALF OF the world
Jer 2:3a Israel was holy to the Lord, the firstfruits of His increase.

Israel was Yahweh’s “firstfruits” — the world “His increase”.
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Re: Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Postby Paidion » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:39 pm

Davo wrote:*one Christian writer*


Ignatius to the Magnesians wrote:9:2 …how can we possibly live without him, whom even the prophets, who were his disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? This is why the one for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when he came.


“raised …when He came.” Oops!!!! :shock:


Well, the life of Ignatius is dated as A.D. 30-107. At first blush, he would appear to be the earliest Christian writer. And yes, if Ignatius were the writer of Magnesians 9:2, and if he had affirmed that Jesus had returned prior to the writer's day, then I need to say, "Oops. I made a mistake." But to believe that this IS the case, is a stretch indeed.

It is the universal opinion of the critics that 8 of the 15 letters ascribed to Ignatius are spurious. Magnesians is not one of the 8. Those that ARE considered to be genuine exist in two versions. You have quoted from the shorter version of Magnesians. The longer one reads differently.

However, many, including myself, think that ALL of them are spurious. The writer of Magnesians indicates that the church had one overseer (or "bishop") and several elders ("presbyters"). The overseer/elder distinction is not made in the NT, and there always a plurality of overseers. But the churches of a later period each had a single "bishop" and even later there was but a single bishop over a whole region (called a "bishopric").

Since, then, I have had the privilege of seeing you, through Damas your most worthy bishop,and through your worthy presbyters Bassus and Apollonius, and through my fellow-servant the deacon Sotio, whose friendship may I ever enjoy, inasmuch as he is subject to the bishop as to the
grace of God, and to the presbytery as to the law of Jesus Christ. (Magnesians 2:1)


Even if Magnesians were the genuine writing of Ignatius, the words in 9:2 don't speak of the second coming of Christ.

9:2 …how can we possibly live without him, whom even the prophets, who were his disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? This is why the one for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when he came.


In all probability, "when he came" refers to his coming to earth from the time of his birth until his death. But then, you ask, did he raise the prophets from the dead during that period? That may be the case! Or perhaps shortly after his death.

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. (Matthew 27:50-53)


Those saints who were raised may have included some of the prophets or "Old Testament" saints.
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Re: Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Postby davo » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm

    :lol: Dang Don… once again you explain away the explicit — how did I know you’d pull that one! :lol:
You certainly have a growing mound of material, a cavalcade of carnage of *inconvenient truths / fake news* on your biblical—extra-biblical cutting-room floor. What intrigues me more, however, is you reviving a 6yr old thread in this your quest against the perils of prêterism. :mrgreen:
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Re: Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:18 pm

davo wrote:
    :lol: Dang Don… once again you explain away the explicit — how did I know you’d pull that one! :lol:
You certainly have a growing mound of material, a cavalcade of carnage of *inconvenient truths / fake news* on your biblical—extra-biblical cutting-room floor. What intrigues me more, however, is you reviving a 6yr old thread in this your quest against the perils of prêterism. :mrgreen:


Did you really just post... 'FAKE NEWS?' :lol:
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Re: Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Postby Paidion » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:31 pm

Yes, he did! Maybe he's a man after Trump's own heart. ;)
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Postby davo » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:37 pm

:lol: Lol… yep he’s (Trump) about as outrages in his logic as you Don. ;)
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