The Evangelical Universalist Forum

So, Confronting Hard-Hearted Religius People...

I have a few thoughts on this, especially since you probably used to be able to classify me as one…

What is hell? If God is gentle love and is ultimately not willing to see anyone hurt or destroyed (even if it’s necessary at times), then is hell really just a matter of wrath, or something even deeper?

And since corruption can’t be the fault of an omnibenevolent God, then it must spring from somewhere within us (at least partially, if not originally).

Thus what hell is, is perhaps a revelation of the true suffering of evil already within us, for we are enslaved to it.

Now, most people cannot avoid the suffering, at least not to a complete degree. Oh, we try to drown it out with money and possessions and forcing our suffering onto others… but at the end of the day we are slain. And the weakest of us perhaps notice that not only do we have faults, but there is something wrong with us… we’re sick and in need of a doctor. While others, (and most, to a partial degree) desperately avoid this inward revelation by constantly placing the blame upon others.

Now, it’s all well and good for some of us who can avoid consciousness of suffering if we’re rich in various ways… (think of the rich man and Lazarus) but there’s an avoidance of a certain type of suffering which doesn’t require any material goods or even emotional well-being… and that’s pride and accusation. Even the poorest and most destitute may sometimes find this sort of superficial relief through blaming their oppressors and never finding fault with themselves (not that their situation is any more just, necessarily).

Anyway, my point is this: if people find superficial relief through propping up frail, temporary supports then they are suffering just as much as the rest of us, only they have naturally clung to whatever method they could find to avoid it. And is this not perhaps the answer for why cruel tyrants and oppressors exist? They are trying to impose their own deep, dark suffering onto the lives of others… the abused and tormented Hitler being a great example of this (it’s insightful that his personality type was that of a Healer gone wrong).

In this sense, wickedness is literally twistedness, twisting one’s own pain into a tool to be used against others.

Thus, should not our task be to allow such oppressors to feel the wrath of their own subconscious suffering, their only pathway to empathy with their victims and the rest of humanity in general?

Toward this end it may be necessary at times to oppose them strongly and back them down until there is no more escape. On a more concrete level this may be removing tyrants from power or taking away government entitlements to the rich. But on a more subtle spiritual level it may look like removing the frail theological supports from those who use their teachings to harbor pride and accusation in an attempt to escape the fiery pit of their own subconscious hell and despair and fear of disapproval.

It may also look like giving them disapproval so that they are no longer enabled by their own sickly sense of self-worth which divides people up into groups and thinks to conquer (but will never really be able to).

While at the same time clearly showing concern and grievance over their state, such as I imagine how Jesus may have tearfully cried out to the Pharisees, “How will you escape going to Gehenna!?” and was in anguish over not being able to protect Jerusalem like a mother hen.

And to be sure there must be some words which would only exacerbate, irritate and ultimately strengthen the oppressors if this mindset is not kept in clear focus. What kind of words would these be? Admittedly even I need help differentiating, for who knows how I may even yet be attempting to escape the flames?

Maybe we can pray and think over this? What we want is no some annihilated or in pain at the end but everything restored and everyone equal.

Well, I think it’s important to note here that we do not want to send a message that is not quite in line with the scripture, and that is, that the ungodly will get away with everything. That is how a lot of ETC’s hear our position. The truth is, if UR is correct, UR is basically simply reaching farther than ETC, but ETC is partially compatible with UR. Basically, this is what it looks like (for the unsaved):

This life > Gehenna/Sheol/Hades/not sure > Judgment > Lake of Fire > Tree of Life (or something like that)

The difference between a typical ETC (besides differences regarding some other theological stuff) and a UR is that the ETC stops at the Lake of Fire part and concentrates on it, while the UR goes beyond that to the very end where there is complete restoration.

ETC’s, hearing the UR position, often interpret it as: This life > Judgment > Tree of Life. And, obviously, that is not very scriptural. The UR doesn’t say there’s no judgement or Lake of Fire, but that the Lake of Fire serves a specific purpose in its torments (whatever those are), and is not forever, but produces a good fruit in the end.

ECT’s also believe that the Lake of Fire consists of specific conscious torments akin to the torments inflicted by humans, and that it’s necessarily worse than anything else. This is not entirely collect. First, it is said throughout the Bible that there are different degrees of “bearableness” for various groups of people at judgment. And these are, in fact, mostly by works, it seems. Various passages, such as Sheep and Goats, reference to the cities that refused disciples, some stuff in Corinthians, Romans, 1 John, etc., confirm that the judgment is essentially by works, and it is different for different people. From there, one can argue that different types of unbelievers won’t have the same fate at all. I.e., the usual claim that “doing good is worthless if you don’t do it for God” is, in fact, invalid, even just due to Romans 1 or 2 or 3 forgot. I often had far more trouble with the “5 year old kids who lied deserve to be tortured in the worst way imaginable” than "some exceptionally wicked person will get tortured’. There was a gross disbalance there, but it is not of the Bible.

Generally, we still do not have a very good understanding of how people are actually judged. If we take certain passages in Peter seriously, we may get an impression that singular lone Christians are “saved” and no one else. I don’t know if saving is the only way to avoid the Lake of Fire at judgment, or merely the most secure way. Similarly, I do not know if only saints get saved, or even weak Christians. It’s rather unclear.

Second, we do not really have direct descriptions of the Lake of Fire anywhere in the Bible. Most descriptions are metaphorical and deal with God’s fire, which is as obscure as it gets. In fact, even these descriptions seem to indicate a very divine form of punishment vs the human crude punishment aka Dante-style stuff. What we do understand is that the projected punishment of the wicked is not a good thing to endure. In fact, overall I would say there is a division of this kind:

  • salvation in this life is obtained by people via faith, which is accrued to them as righteousness. These people are born again and purified in life by water and Spirit, according to 1/2/3 John, and their sins are forgiven; nevertheless, these are continually warned that certain actions/thoughts put them in the danger of fire. Generally, it seems one must be highly pure to avoid the fire, and I would largely say that 99% of the population will end up in it in some way or another;
  • those not saved in this life undergo purification by fire. In fact, I wonder if the reference to fire in Revelation 3 actually refers to afterlife purification. I can’t make any conclusion on what the fire is, how it works, etc. One thing to note that if the fire is functional (i.e., trying to bring a person to repentance), the more foregone the person is, the more problematic this is going to be. The worst language in the Bible is reserved for people who committed things like adultery, murder, continual lying, sacrificing infants, etc. I mean, this was Judaism and then Roman Empire. Some very non-nice people there. In fact, I haven’t even heard negative language turned towards Gentiles without something else added. On the contrary, the good Samaritan is approved of. So, who knows, who knows.

(^ This seems to be Nyssa’s view?)

So what do you do when you get something like one of these guys: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_se … by_country

You think those people are going to have a nice psychotherapy session with God? Surely that is not fair neither to the victims nor effective overall. But see, if this man during his life has indeed repented on his own and baptized and what not he’d be forgiven and God would let it go, and that would be the process of his purification, and high demands would be made of him, and perhaps he would suffer persecution and torture for God’s sake from other men, even. But since that did not occur, since he (as far as we know) never changed, him awaits the baptism of fire, which may very well be far worse than the baptism of water in this life.

Makes sense? I don’t know. I am still thinking it all through.

Meh. A bit of a messy description, please note that I am back to being unstable again and I don’t have the Spirit anyway, so I’m largely talking out of my ass.

Oh, man. That was a great breakdown and I agree with you 100%, it just wasnt the pint of the thread.

Could Jason or someone make a new thread out of this? I think it would be especially delicious to discuss. You can add the next post that I make to that thread, too."

Great breakdown! I agree with you 100%.

In all of the “messiness,” a simple theme remains present: we will all be purified to the extent that we are impure. But the baptism by fire is something that keeps stretching on into the life of the believer and becomes pleasant rather than painful because of the change it wrought in the person.

My only point was that God doesn’t want us to experience pain or torment, which some ECTers would affirm, but obviously regards it as necessary in particular circumstances.

And if they (and we) will only experience pain to the degree of our impurity, and it is the impurity itself which makes God’s presence unbearable, then the impurity is essentially a hell of our own nature’s creation. That was my whole point which you basically affirmed.

Sure sounds like you have the Spirit to me. The phenomena of being doesn’t always fall neatly along confessional lines. :smiley:

Hmm, yes, that was probably offtopic. Didn’t intend it that way. What I was trying to do was outline the UR view against the ETC view and indicate how it works with the scriptures that seem to affirm ECT. I.e., we do not reject Hell, we do not think it’s something we shouldn’t try to avoid, we just think it’s not the end.

As for the Spirit thing, my views on that issue are kinda complicated, but that’s for another thread which I may start sometime.

Seems like you walked right into the Eastern Orthodox view… :smiley:

I think that it is at once retribution and remediation.

I wonder . . . doesn’t it come of our trying to do it ourselves, and live from our own finite life and resources (wrong tree)? The very choice to do it on our own is the corruption (or the beginning of it), since we were created for love and unity with God and with one another.

Yes.

Some people do seem to avoid any significant suffering, but without suffering I’m not sure how one can grow and mature. What is obedience if it never costs us anything? How can one become strong without pushing through? Suffering is necessary for our development. I don’t like it any more than anyone else, but it’s indispensable, so far as I can see. That’s not to say we can justify inflicting it on others – God forbid we should even consider such a thing – but it is I believe, necessary to our maturation.

Absolutely. If it is in our power at all, we are to help the afflicted, strengthen the dying, deliver those who are being led away to slaughter. It isn’t always IN our power, but sometimes it is. IMO, the war to stop Nazi Germany was necessary and it was moral. And what’s more, it was as merciful to Germany to stop the Nazi regimen as it was to the rest of the world. Putting a stop to an evil doer’s deeds is as merciful to him/her as it is to potential victims.

As I said in Bird’s topic, there are times to intervene and other times when there’s just no point. Hiding Jews in the spare room or taking their babies out in tool boxes is possible. Taking on the Nazis as they drag away your neighbor to the camps isn’t. There’s no point in that. It’s bad logistics. It may “feel better” to get yourself beaten to death with rifle butts, but your friend is still going off to concentration camp and you can no longer help anyone else.

There is a time for everything.

Blessings, Cindy

That’s a really good post Cindy (IMHO)

It speaks movingly about what I see as our shared faith - the keynote is Joy but the Joy must embrace Sorrow as the Risen Christ is still the wounded Christ. Thank you.

I also agree with what you have to say about the Just War against the Nazis. As you know I was for a time a Quaker - and still love them. One of the difficulties I had with them is that, at least in their British form, they are completely non-dogmatic (and some can be intolerant of people trying to seek understanding of their faith). However, there is one thing all but a few are absolutely fundamentalist about; and that is pacifism. I respect that but can’t go along with it - although it is true, concerning the persecution of the Jews, that when a whole population - rather than brave individuals - were involved in active pacifist resistance against this (as in Lutheran Sweden and Greek Orthodox Bulgaria - with big involvement from the Church in both cases) the Nazi’s could do very little.

So I think we need to keep an open mind about active pacifism - but I also think that there can be Just Wars (in very special circumstances) with all the prescriptions of International of the Geneva Convention (which is based on Just War theory) strictly adhered to.

Blessings

Dick :slight_smile:

P.S. Incidentally, I’ve read somewhere that where Jesus says – at least in the King James version – ‘Resist not evil’ – the original reads something more like ‘resist not evil violently’. Does anyone know anything about this?

I do understand that once wars start it is so difficult to control the escalating violence and ensure that the outcome was worth the loss once expedincy takes over from principle - no matter how much International Law has theoretically given appropraite guidelines and constraints. War is a terrible, terrible thing in which, in a sense, there are no winners (and I’ve often found that the soldiers I have spoken to are painfully aware of this).

I know that there are pacifist Anabaptists on this sight nad I don’t wish to offend against their Gospel principles which I respect and largely share.

Blessings

Dick

You don’t.

Luke 9:5
And wherever they do not receive and accept and welcome you, when you leave that town shake off [even] the dust from your feet, as a testimony against them.

You also don’t do that in disgust, arrogance, or pride. You just keep going, no need to confront anyone.

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.

We don’t ignore people, we should always have a logical defense to anyone who asks for what we believe.

Coincidently the numbers of serial killers in America almost out number the rest of the0 world. Wonder why that is…

It’s a larger country?

What if I’m bad at that?

Bigger than USSR and China and Japan combined?

2 Timothy 2:15
Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth.

If you cannot do it, then walk away.

Ephesians 4:11-13
And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers. His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ’s body (the church), [That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [a]full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ’s own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger! :astonished:

There’s a huge flaw in using one verse to float a doctrine, especially when it’s out-of-context and there are plenty of other passages which address the subject. To say that because Jesus told the disciples to go on with their mission and ignore those who rejected their message means that confrontation should never happen completely ignores the fact that Jesus himself and Stephen, Paul and others frequently confronted and opposed religious rulers and hypocrites. So either they were violating Jesus’ command which somehow applies across the board despite His never having made that clear… or else that command was relegated to a specific mission, or type of mission.

If you think you are to confront them Steller, go for it. Tell me how that turns out.

Proverbs 12:23
A prudent man is reluctant to display his knowledge, but the heart of [self-confident] fools proclaims their folly.

So you think Jesus’s advice was only if they were on a ‘mission’ from God? Interesting context, yes of course they were on a mission but if you are not on a mission, you shouldn’t be confronting hard0hearted religious people anyways. Why?

Matthew 7:6
Do not give that which is holy (the sacred thing) to the dogs, and do not throw your pearls before hogs, lest they trample upon them with their feet and turn and tear you in pieces.

Sharing the Gospel and confronting Hard-Hearted Religious people are two different things.

Having people upset because you share the Good News in their presence versus going out specifically to confront them is two different things.

Let us speak of Jesus, Jesus never went out to the Pharisee, they came out to find Him. Jesus was talking to the crowds and among them the Pharisee and Sadducee and Lawyers came and challenged Jesus and when Jesus finished answering their questions, he disappeared and hid himself into the crowd. Jesus never came for the religious but those the religious called ‘sinners’.

If asked for the hope that is within you:

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.

Lastly, nowhere in Scripture does it ever tell you to waste your time with those who will not listen. If there is a religious person in our assembly, then the ELDERS take care of it as per the instruction of Paul. Are you our elder, Steller? If a person has questions on how, then they probably shouldn’t be doing it. Not everyone is called to be an evangelist.

So before you go out yelling “Danger”. Perhaps you should read Scripture as whole and not take a Scripture out of the context of the entire Scriptures and not just the little event they were instructed in.

2 Timothy 3:10-14
Now you have closely observed and diligently followed my teaching, conduct, purpose in life, faith, patience, love, steadfastness, persecutions, sufferings–such as occurred to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra, persecutions I endured, but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Indeed all who delight in piety and are determined to live a devoted and godly life in Christ Jesus will meet with persecution [will be made to suffer because of their religious stand]. But wicked men and imposters will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and leading astray others and being deceived and led astray themselves.

But as for you, continue to hold to the things that you have learned and of which you are convinced, knowing from whom you learned [them], and how from your childhood you have had a knowledge of and been acquainted with the sacred Writings, which are able to instruct you and give you the understanding for salvation which comes through faith in Christ Jesus [through the leaning of the entire human personality on God in Christ Jesus in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness]. Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action), so that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.

It is for you, let those who are deceived go from worse to worse so that they may become utterly sinful and realize the error. As for me, every Scripture is God-breathed for me to instruct me, to reproof me, to convict me, to correct me and train me, so that I may be well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work. It is not made for you to instruct me, reproof me, convict me, to correct me and train me, nor was it made for us to instruct the Hard-Hearted Religious People.

They are hard-hearted religious people by their own actions and their own choices, but remain hard-hearted because God keeps them that way.

John 12:40
He has blinded their eyes and hardened and benumbed their [callous, degenerated] hearts [He has made their minds dull], to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their hearts and minds and repenting and turning to Me to heal them.

Romans 9:18
So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.