"Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Discussions pertaining to the Church, including it's history.

"Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby Origen; » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:31 am

"Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

"...Is it safe to say that the post-Vatican II Church is functionally Universalist? Might that play a role? This would apply to most Mainline Prots as well. Yes, also far too many Orthodox parishes."

"...I’d estimate that 95 – 98% of all the Catholics – including pastoral leaders – that I’ve ever worked with are functional universalists. Meaning that concerns regarding the personal salvation of anyone never cross their mind or affect their pastoral decisions and priorities."

"...“Universalism” in this context means that all paths to God are equally valid, and that everyone will eventually be saved. It is a basic assumption of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism."

"People who work in ministry, and who study religion professionally, are probably not going to be shocked by universalism’s prevalence in American religion today. People who live in bubbles of relative religious orthodoxy will be. Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam relates a telling anecdote in his book “American Grace.” Research shows that the vast majority of American Christians agree with the view that anybody who is a good person may go to heaven (the implication being that belief in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation — a point of view completely at odds with the Gospel and with Christian tradition)."

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... nt-page-1/
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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:56 am

"Dear Past, thank you for all the lessons. Dear Future, I am ready."-- Author Unknown


Just a comment here. I think the "official" position, of the Roman Catholic Church is "hopeful universalism". In other words, it's OK to pray and hope, that everyone is saved. I do think that Roman Catholicism opens more doors, by officially embracing inclusivism (which is also the main doctrine, of most mainline Protestant churches. And the majority opinion, of the Eastern Orthodox).

I do recall a Roman Catholic poster here, who wanted to also embrace universalism (in the past year or so). The priest told him, what I am sharing here, regarding the R.C. official position.

Personally, I take many theological elements, from Roman Catholic, Franciscan clergy member and theologian Richard Rohr at Center for Action and Contemplation. I share elements of theology with him, as well as the Eastern Orthodox (and a bit of Joel Osteen, thrown in) - under the banner of "Anglicanism".

Having said that, I do feel universalism is becoming a more acceptable theological position.

And ECT is not acceptable - in my book. Think of Zombies. If we were plagued by them, then we would want to either:

    Exile them
    Destroy them
    Make them all human again

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Now for some Holy Fool tidbits, from today's Sunil Bali blog at http://www.sunilbali.com/blog/

I was going to quit all my bad habits, but then I remembered that no one likes a quitter.

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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby Origen; » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:56 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Just a comment here. I think the "official" position, of the Roman Catholic Church is "hopeful universalism". In other words, it's OK to pray and hope, that everyone is saved. I do think that Roman Catholicism opens more doors, by officially embracing inclusivism (which is also the main doctrine, of most mainline Protestant churches. And the majority opinion, of the Eastern Orthodox).

I do recall a Roman Catholic poster here, who wanted to also embrace universalism (in the past year or so). The priest told him, what I am sharing here, regarding the R.C. official position.


That also is my understanding re the "official" view of the RCC. Maybe the "rank & file" haven't received the memo yet. Or it got lost in the mail. OTOH maybe there are some "free thinkers" there.

From "Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God", p.66 via the Paulist Press, 1994:

"The Church, which invokes its infallibility in the canonization of the saints, has never done so with regard to the damned. We cannot know with certainty if even one human soul does in fact go to hell" (quoting Karl Rahner).

One remark from the comment section of the OP link stated this has always been the RCC position. Evidently the memo didn't reach a number of the Early Church Father universalists either. Snail mail wasn't so reliable in Oregon's time.
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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby DaveB » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:15 am

The Evangelical (not RCC) Universalist would disagree, I think, with the thought that 'all paths to God are equally valid"?
"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth". -Albert Einstein
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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:53 am

Actually, a good indicator is what comes up,on page 1 of Google. Look at keywords "does the Roman Catholic Church teach universalism?" Let's survey a few:


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A while back, some pretty woman tried to write me - via email. She claimed to be a US nurse, serving in Nigeria. She tried to convince me - after a week - that Unicef (a big UN agency), didn't cover her medical benefits. Well, her story doesn't hold water. Since Unicef is one of the best funded agencies - with excellent medical benefits. And if her story was true (i.e. the agency is messed up), Even her photo was a fake, as a Google image search concluded. I can find her fake story contradicted verified on:

    A Google search, with the right keywords
    Social media sharing.

In . Those Who Have Never Heard: A Survey of the Major Positions, it says this:

According to inclusivism (sometimes called “the faith principle”), Jesus is the particular savior of the world, but people can benefit from the redemptive work of Christ even though they die never hearing about Christ—if they respond in faith to God based on the revelation God has given them.


The inclusivist position has a long and distinguished history in the church. Such widely divergent thinkers as Justin, Thomas Aquinas, John Wesley, C. S. Lewis, and Pope John Paul II have affirmed it.[40] Today, it is the dominant view of the Roman Catholic Church and of mainline Protestants. Though the Eastern Orthodox Church has no officially sanctioned position, the inclusivistic views of Justin and other Greek fathers are widely cited with approval and many of the arguments for inclusivism are employed.[41] Inclusivism represents the closest thing to a consensus among Christians today.


Tell me. I deliverately didn't read these articles and/or forum discussions, from page 1 - of a Google search. Which - if any - states that the Roman Catholic church teaches universalism (and not inclusivism)?

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Last edited by Holy-Fool-P-Zombie on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby Origen; » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:10 pm

DaveB wrote:The Evangelical (not RCC) Universalist would disagree, I think, with the thought that 'all paths to God are equally valid"?


I assume when the RC authors wrote "Good Goats" they were hopeful of all being saved throughout Jesus Christ, not Buddha or Hare Krishna.

Evangelical Universalism

The type of Christian Universalism that departs the least from orthodox or traditional Christian doctrine is Evangelical (Christian) Universalism, also called Biblical or Trinitarian Universalism. Evangelical Universalists hold to conservative positions on most theological or doctrinal issues except for the doctrine of hell, in which case they assert universal reconciliation instead of eternal torment.[34] They tend to emphasize the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ for the sins of all humanity as the basis for their Universalism.

In 2006 a mainstream evangelical writer, revealed[35] as Robin Parry in 2009, under the pseudonym of "Gregory MacDonald" (taken from the names, Gregory of Nyssa and George MacDonald) released a book The Evangelical Universalist.[36] In 2008 this inspired the creation of a forum,[37] featuring "Gregory MacDonald" and Thomas Talbott, to discuss Evangelical Universalism and related topics. Evangelical Universalists derive a large part of their beliefs from Evangelicalism and Reformed theology. Many of them come from an Evangelical Christian background, but they may or may not identify with this movement and seek to remain with it.

Some Evangelical Universalists avoid using the word "Universalism" to describe their beliefs, perhaps because of the negative connotations of this word among conservative Christians. Alternative terms that are in use among Evangelical Universalists include the "Larger Hope" or "Blessed Hope" and the "Victorious Gospel."[38]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... iversalism

"Evangelicals and Pentecostals are newcomers to this conversation. Robin Parry, sometimes under the penname of Gregory MacDonald, has brought out a number of volumes dedicated to “evangelical universalism,” which includes several varieties but all of which agree that ultimately God will save all through the work of Christ.18 Parry argues that neither orthodoxy nor evangelicalism need preclude universalism; in other words, an evangelical and orthodox Christian can embrace universalism without a sense of theological incoherence. Yet in what is perhaps his most interesting volume, Parry edits a variety of essays on universalists who are theologically unorthodox (Schleiermacher, Robinson, and Hick, for example) or un-evangelical (Julian of Norwich, Barth, Balthasar, and Moltmann).19 Thomas Talbott is an evangelical philosopher whose work on universalism has attracted wide attention.20 In 2012 megachurch pastor Rob Bell’s book Love Wins, which implicitly recommends a hopeful universalism (like Balthasar’s: we can hope without knowing for sure), sparked a perfect storm of controversy both within and without the evangelical world.21 Time magazine featured the book on one of its covers. If evangelicals had not known that some of its theologians and pastors had been challenging traditional eschatology, this new book made them suddenly aware."

http://themelios.thegospelcoalition.org ... l-be-saved
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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby Origen; » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:42 pm

I wonder how many preachers today in various denominations seldom if ever speak a word about endless hell. It's like it doesn't even exist, even when it's part of the official denomination doctrine that they haven't yet had the time or inclination to erase.
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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby DaveB » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:01 pm

That's a good question - I actually asked my pastor = who is my brother in law and an intelligent man - why, when Hell is mentioned, he does not follow up on what that concept ENTAILS - really think about it and share it explicitly with the congregation.
He'd never really thought about it.
"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth". -Albert Einstein
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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby steve7150 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:12 pm

That's a good question - I actually asked my pastor = who is my brother in law and an intelligent man - why, when Hell is mentioned, he does not follow up on what that concept ENTAILS - really think about it and share it explicitly with the congregation.
He'd never really thought about it.









I don't think humans have the capacity to contemplate the meaning of endless hell.
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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby DaveB » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:35 pm

MavPhil's discussion of.......................Zombies!

http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/ ... -life.html
"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth". -Albert Einstein
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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:22 pm

DaveB wrote:MavPhil's discussion of.......................Zombies!

http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/ ... -life.html


The zombies salute you, Dave :!: :D

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Re: "Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Postby DaveB » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:23 pm

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week, thank you so much...
"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth". -Albert Einstein
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