james.goetz wrote:Life in the new covenant needs to avoid both condemnation and unbridled sin.
james.goetz wrote: I've thoroughly thought this through
Jim, you have a gift with practicality (as did Rabbi Shaul) but you are not looking at roots (AKA: causes). Behind all the give and take, the bend and break their are spiritual bottom lines
which go beyond "We need to live right - amen?!!" (and everybody agrees with a shout of "amen!"). That is one level of reality which, as I said, is fine if that's where you are at. But at that stage you are not really discerning good and evil or separating the knowledge of good and evil from the tree of life.
"You are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ - who is your life shall appear, then you will also appear with Him
"for we know that the Messiah, who was raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has mastery over him. When He died, He died once and for all to sin's power. But now He lives, and He lives for God"."In the same way, you too must continually consider yourselves dead as far as sin is concerned
, but living for God through the Messiah Jesus".
james.goetz wrote:Let's look at 2 Corinthians 7:10 (TNIV), "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death."
New covenant believers might never reach moral perfection in earthly life, and when they sin, they need to repent with godly sorrow that leaves no regret/condemnation.
One Corinthian 'believer' was sleeping with his stepmom. Again - to be practical - obviously
people like that 'need' to repent - have a change of heart. But a change of heart requires an understanding
, not that we need to try and feel sorry and do better - but that we consider ourselves dead as far as sin is concerned
not to say "Oh dang - I really screwed up - I need to feel sorry and do better so I won't be condemned and get a spanking and have everybody mad and hurt and lives destroyed and have me displeasing God" etc etc.
I'm unsure what you're teaching. Are you saying that some Christians have reached moral perfection before they died?
"You are dead"
The 'truth' is we are dead and our life is hidden with Christ in God. If you are not able or comfortable
with acknowledging that Jesus' perfection is 100% applied to you right now and you are complete in Him then I understand that. Jesus said "BE YE PERFECT" not "one day when you die you will be perfect like me". If we don't believe that we are dead and your life is (right now) hidden with Christ in God then we are living under an illusion of imperfection which can manifest and cause major shipwrecks - no doubt. But our perfection in Christ is still true. Understanding this will cause 'about faces' and 'changes of heart' galore. Godly sorry is that God REVEALS the truth of the matter to our hearts (that we are absolutely 100% forgiven and that He is holding absolutely nothing against us) and that's what allows the supernatural changes needed (ie: so our own hearts will stop condemn us and we will no longer be alienated in our minds)
I also like Romans 5:8-9:
 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! (Romans 5:8-9 TNIV)
Yikes!!! "God's wrath" isn't in the original text!!! (theologians at work here
) Try "saved from 'agitation of the soul' though Him.
quote="james.goetz"] Why are you saying '"God's wrath" isn't in the original text'? I have no idea what you're referencing.
I am referencing the Greek text "pollw oun mallon dikaiwqentev nun en tw aimati autou swqhsomeqa di' autou apo thv orghv". No mention of God's wrath, just that we are saved from wrath (Greek: Orge = anger, the natural disposition, temper, character- movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, anger)
There's categorical difference between life inside the new covenant versus life outside the covenant. And as an Evangelical Universalist, I believe that everybody will eventually experience life inside the covenant.
Then they will die to the egoic self and no longer identify with the lie and illusion that that is who they are.
firstborn888 wrote:Either God is not imputing sin (as Jeff quoted) or He is. I think the case is "perception of condemnation may come from evil spirits".
I have no idea what you mean by God is not imputing sin or God is imputing sin. Anyway, believers who struggle with condemnation struggle with a false perception of condemnation while unbelievers actually stand condemned before God until they genuinely believe.
James, I have a only fourth grade education (no joke - long story). But i did learn to read
and when I received the knowledge
of salvation (once I knew Jesus had already rescued me) I studied like a maniac. My retention of specific words though is not
great and that's why I have to look up things over and over and I still CANNOT remember addresses (chapter and verse) but the concepts of the gospel were written by God into my heart and I (later) found them in scripture as confirmation but I read them differently than most because I see a different layer (mostly root spiritual activity). I'm not claiming to be special, just 'different'.
Since you guys here are so educated I assume you would know what imputed means in the Greek. I don't (and need to get back to work) but I do know that if you believe that God holds nothing against you (not easy!) then you are completely blameless because you are no longer alienated by the lie that God is somehow separate from you. That takes a BUNCH of faith and is a gift from God AND it transforms you because it is SO humbling as we are so helpless in our own strength. I am doing my part to plant seeds of faith concerning this so more people can be free through the knowledge of the good news, ie: We have a savior who saved us. We are saved (made whole). All else is superficial and a lie.
I have heard the traditional view a zillion times, and that's fine it has it's place. Does anything I'm sharing ring a bell with you? Or anyone (please chime in
). If not I will accept that maybe a seed or two will germinate someday. I certainly don't want to waste my time and other's time.