what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

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what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby qaz » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:11 pm

What do you think eonian mean WRT punishment and judgment? I know paidion thinks it means lasting. But wouldn't that be redundant, as all punishment necessarily lasts for a period of time? IIRC Nik Ansell speculates that eonian in these texts means pertaining to the messianic age.
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby steve7150 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:09 am

What do you think eonian mean WRT punishment and judgment? I know paidion thinks it means lasting. But wouldn't that be redundant, as all punishment necessarily lasts for a period of time? IIRC Nik Ansell speculates that eonian in these texts means pertaining to the messianic ag
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I think Youngs has it as "duration" because it relates to the subject matter more then a time frame. So it's different depending on who or what it pertains to.
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Paidion » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:55 pm

Hi qaz, you wrote:I know paidion thinks it means lasting. But wouldn't that be redundant, as all punishment necessarily lasts for a period of time?


Hmmmm... if that reasoning applies, then wouldn't the word "lasting" be redundant in all contexts?

When someone tells you that you have a lasting illness, this normally implies that your illness is going to stay with you for a long (though unspecified length of) time.
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby qaz » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:11 pm

So then paidion, am I right to infer you think eonian means "lasting a long duration"?
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Paidion » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:30 pm

Nope. Just "lasting," though more often than not is is applied to that which lasts for a long time.
However, in the case of Jonah in the belly of the whale, it lasted only three days. But to Jonah it must have seemed a long time!
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Paidion » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:35 pm

Sometimes "αἰωνιον" (aiōnion) seems to mean something like "permanently." For example in Philemon 15
For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back "αἰωνιον" (aiōnion).
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Origen; » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:13 pm

The translation "lasting" is supported by:

"eternal (adj.)
late 14c., from Old French eternel "eternal," or directly from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus "of an age, lasting, enduring, permanent, everlasting, endless," contraction of aeviternus "of great age," from aevum "age" (see eon). Used since Middle English both of things or conditions without beginning or end and things with a beginning only but no end. A parallel form, Middle English eterne, is from Old French eterne (cognate with Spanish eterno), directly from Latin aeternus. Related: Eternally. The Eternal (n.) for "God" is attested from 1580s."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=eternal

OTOH the rendering "eternal" (for aionion) is not a true translation but an interpretation according to theologically biased opinion.
As such it should have no place in any translation.
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Origen; » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:55 pm

This article is quite well written:

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/ ... -judgment/

It says:

"Young’s Literal Translation was done by Dr. Robert Young in 1898. He was also the author of the Young’s Analytical Concordance. Dr. Young says in his Concordance that aion means “age, age-lasting.”

"... In his Bible translation, he consistently translates the Greek word aionios into English even more literally as “age-during” to show that it means the events occur “during” whatever age the author was discussing. This is very literal and precise. Even so, another Bible translator, Weymouth, on page 657 of The New Testament in Modern Speech, quibbles with Dr. Young, saying,

" “Eternal: Greek: ‘aeonion,’ i.e., ‘of the ages.’ Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify ‘during,’ but ‘belonging to’ the aeons or ages.” "

"I suppose we must allow scholars to dispute the fine points of each word, for that is their vocation. But regardless of who is correct, they both agree on the essential fact that aionios does not mean “eternal.” "

"Rotherham’s The Emphasized Bible, is much like Young’s Literal Translation. He renders verse 46,"

" "46 And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life." "

"Benjamin Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott does not presume to render aionios “everlasting,” but prefers to just transliterate it directly from the Greek. This non-committal attitude allows men to interpret this word as they wish. He renders verse 46:"

" "46 And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian Life." "

"The Cambridge Bible Commentary, by A. W. Argyle, has this to say about Matthew 25:46,"

" “46. eternal punishment, i.e., punishment characteristic of the Age to come, not meaning that it lasts for ever." "

" “eternal life, i.e., the life that belongs to the Age to come, the full abundant life which is fellowship with God.” "

"Argyle recognizes that the term aionios refers to “the Age to come” rather than eternity as such. In our next section we will have more to say about “The Age,” that is, the Messianic Age. This is the key to understanding how aion and aionios were defined when the Bible was written—and for many years afterward."

"...We will develop this concept a bit further in our next section on “The Messianic Age.” Anyway, Wilson’s term, aionian, is much like that found in The Concordant Literal New Testament, which renders verse 46,"

" "46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." "
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Origen; » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:12 pm

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

http://concordant.org/expositions/the-e ... art-three/
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby davo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:56 pm

These renderings of “age-during” “age-abiding” “age-lasting” are all legitimate and rightly applied… “show that it means the events occur “during” whatever age the author was discussing.

Again this… “eternal life, i.e., the life that belongs to the Age to come, the full abundant life which is fellowship with God” is what Jesus points to about the new covenant age, as per Jn 17:3 and Jn 10:10.

Origen; wrote:Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,”

Yes… and had Jesus wanted to mean endlessness he could well have chosen words like <ἀπέραντος> aperantos or <ἀκατάλυτος> akatklutos as per…
1Tim 1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
Heb 7:16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
Job 36:26 LXX “Behold, God is exalted, and we do not know Him; the number of His years are unlimited.
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Paidion » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:32 pm

Yes, Jesus could have used "απεραντος" if he had meant "endless" as in 1 Tim 1:4. The word means "unfinished" and by implication "interminable."

"απεραντος" is also used in the Job passage to which Davo refers.

And yes, he could have used "απαταλυτος" as in Heb 7:16. This word means "indestructible" and is translated as such by the ESV. But if a life is indestructible, then it is clearly endless.

One other word Jesus could have used if he had meant "endless" would be "αιδιος". This word means "eternal" as in Romans 1:20 where it refers to God's "eternal power and deity."
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Origen; » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:47 am

Paidion wrote:Yes, Jesus could have used "απεραντος" if he had meant "endless" as in 1 Tim 1:4. The word means "unfinished" and by implication "interminable."

"απεραντος" is also used in the Job passage to which Davo refers.

And yes, he could have used "απαταλυτος" as in Heb 7:16. This word means "indestructible" and is translated as such by the ESV. But if a life is indestructible, then it is clearly endless.

One other word Jesus could have used if he had meant "endless" would be "αιδιος". This word means "eternal" as in Romans 1:20 where it refers to God's "eternal power and deity."


Why do you think aidios expresses endlessness? Is it a better term to express endlessness than aionios? I believe that is the position of Ramelli. Though the CLNT has imperceptible for aidios, or something similar. I've read the word is similar to that for Hades, the unseen.

Does immortality express endlessness? Or the words "no end" (Lk.1:33)?
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby davo » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:51 pm

Origen; wrote:Why do you think aidios expresses endlessness? Is it a better term to express endlessness than aionios?

IMO it is a much better word for describing “endlessness” as *aiōnios* pertains to the limits of the age in view, or as the article you linked to above more fully has it…
The Greek word aiōnios is the adjective form of aion, “pertaining to an age.” Young’s Concordance says that it means “age-lasting.” In his Bible translation, he consistently translates the Greek word aiōnios into English even more literally as “age-during” to show that it means the events occur “during” whatever age the author was discussing.

As to <ἀϊδίοις> aidiois carrying more the sense of endlessness or longevity Jude seems to make that case…
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Some do however view <ἀϊδίοις> aidios as a synonymous term with *aiōnios* because the above is applicable to a timeframe, i.e., “the judgment of the great day” but even so *aiōnios* is a better candidate for that understanding given the adjective’s latent reference to *an age*aiōn.
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Paidion » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:42 pm

Why do you think aidios expresses endlessness?


Simply because it does. It has been used in that way in many classical works as well as some during New Testament times.

Is it a better term to express endlessness than aionios?


You can't compare it as being "better" or "worse" than "aionios" as a term for "endlessness," simply because aionios doesn't mean "endlessness" at all. It NEVER means "endlessness" (although it has been applied to that which is endless—just as in English the word "blue" does not mean "tall", though it can be applied to something that is tall, such as a tower.)

Rather "aionios" means "lasting".
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby JamesAH81072 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:08 pm

So αιδιος is never used for punishment(ie hellfire/lake of fire)?
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby davo » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:49 pm

JamesAH81072 wrote:So αιδιος is never used for punishment(ie hellfire/lake of fire)?

<ἀϊδίος> aidios was used in connection with ‘judgment’ as per Jude 1:6 above; BUT such is NOT stated in terms of that being “hellfire/lake of fire”. The apocryphal LXX also uses <ἀϊδίος> aidios twice, but again NOT in any negative sense…
Wis 7:26 LXX For she (Wisdom) is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.
4Macc 10:15 LXX By the blessed death of my brethren, and the eternal punishment of the tyrant, and the glorious life of the pious, I will not repudiate the noble brotherhood.

So although on some level <ἀϊδίος> aidios (eternal) is considered synonymous with <αἰώνιον> aiōnion (everlasting) in terms of *eternal* it pretty much carries a QUALITATIVE meaning as opposed to the quantitative meaning of longevity; even though confusingly <αἰώνιον> aiōnion CAN likewise be seen as qualitative… BUT <ἀϊδίος> aidios much more so.
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Paidion » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:36 am

Also we may notice another interesting fact from Jude 1:6

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day... (Jude 1:6 ESV)

While it says that the chains are eternal, the implication concerning the fallen angels seems to be that they will be kept in those eternal chains only until the judgment of the great day.
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby Origen; » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:06 am

davo, you said;

"Yes… and had Jesus wanted to mean endlessness he could well have chosen words like <ἀπέραντος> aperantos or <ἀκατάλυτος> akatklutos as per…

1Tim 1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith."


-------------------

Philo lived at or near the time of Christ.

Helena Keizer says Philo used a word, apeiron, with aion, to mean an "unlimited aion".

See page 212 at:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=l-Smsh ... &q&f=false

"the unlimited aion" = ton apeiron aiona

Is this word apeiron related to aperantos?

It seems Philo's interpretation, whether right or wrong, was that Exo.15:18 refers to an "unlimited aion".

Scripture never uses these terms [apeiron & aperantos] for punishment. If Jesus & Scripture had intended us to understand their teaching to be endless punishment, why not use these words instead of the ambiguous olam, aion and aionios?

If aion meant eternal, would there be any need to add apeiron (unlimited) to it?

Exo.15:18 Yahweh, He shall reign for the eon and further. (CLOT)
http://studybible.info/CLV/Exodus%2015

for the eon and further
l·olm u·od
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /exo15.pdf


"Apeiron (ἄπειρον) is a Greek word meaning "(that which is) unlimited," "boundless", "infinite", or "indefinite"[1] from ἀ- a-, "without" and πεῖραρ peirar, "end, limit", "boundary",[2] the Ionic Greek form of πέρας peras, "end, limit, boundary".[3] Akin to Persian, piramon, "boundary, circumference, surrounding" " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apeiron_(cosmology)

https://www.britannica.com/topic/apeiron

http://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/ ... eironperas

http://peenef2.republika.pl/angielski/h ... eiron.html

the unlimited, indeterminate, and indefinite ground, origin, or primal principle of all matter postulated especially by Anaximander
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apeiron


κύριος βασιλεύων τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπ᾽ αἰῶνα καὶ ἔτι
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/exo/15/1/s_65001

Kaiser translates "(through) the aion and during aion and still" for τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπ᾽ αἰῶνα καὶ ἔτι.

Compare:

15:18 The Lord reigns for ever and ever and ever.
http://qbible.com/brenton-septuagint/exodus/15.html
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Re: what does eonian mean WRT punishment?

Postby davo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:52 am

Origen; wrote:Helena Keizer says Philo used a word, apeiron, with aion, to mean an "unlimited aion".

See page 212 at:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=l-Smsh ... &q&f=false

"the unlimited aion" = ton aiperon aiona

Is this word apeiron related to aperantos?

It seems Philo's interpretation, whether right or wrong, was that Exo.15:18 refers to an "unlimited aion".

Philo’s rendition… “"the unlimited aion" = ton aiperon aiona” would be correct in itself… but that’s BEYOND what the text of what Exo15:18 actually says.

As for “Is this word apeiron related to aperantos?” — the closest to “apeiron” I can find is <ἄπειρος> apeiros = inexperienced, unskilled, ignorant; which by extension could mean endless by way of far from experienced etc. However… one LXX reference in Jer 2:6 renders <απειρῳ> apeirō as *vast* or *trackless* which does come close to the idea. And according to my 1861 Liddell & Scott these terms are indeed synonymous.
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