Essentials

Discussions pertaining to scripture and theology from a philosophical approach.

Re: Essentials

Postby Eaglesway » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:41 pm

DaveB wrote:Not all non-trinitarians are Unitarians.

Sometimes when a term is used, as in Robin's statement, there is a danger of setting up a straw man - I'm not saying he did this. But the moniker "Unitarian" is ambiguous, and does not necessarily equal non-trin; i.e., there is a range of justifiable positions between Trinitarianism and Unitarianism; further, there is a range of justifiable positions within Trinitarianism itself, and within Unitarianism itself.



Actually, Unitarian is a very ambiguous term. There are the Unitarian Universalists, who now probly dont believe much of anything about the godhead, or even agree if God is in it or if it is just an amalgam of myths, philosophies and avatars.

Then there are the "Biblical Unitarians" who deal with the issue in their own made up(not saying bad, but like Trinity, made up terms) of "God, very God or not God, very God" when is comes to the deity of Christ. This knocks them outside the minimum soterioly requirements of most mainline denominations- altho for the most part they do not include their view on the Godhead as soteriology, and are in most other theological departments just like a bunch of nice Baptist or even Presbyterian brothers.

I have always been intensely interested in the whole Deity thing because it is mysterious and an exciting subject to examine having many nuances and potential perspectives based on the scriptures. The fact that Michael Servetus was burned at the stake for his views really blew my mind, because I have always been the type of person to just look at all the possibilities without getting my ego so attached that i am going to crumble or explode if I am proven wrong or get taken outside my paradigm- I just dig the exploration and I dont think God cares a lick if I am a Trinitarian or a Biblical Unitarian. There is something about Modalism that really bothers me, not the least of which is the aggressive form of sectarianism most of them have about their view, altho I must say many Trinitarians are the same(sectarian). I love Jesus. He is my Lord. YHWH is my Father. Neither of them is threatened by my exploration of the subject, and I rather like that I have never fully settled the issue, boxed it, wrapped it, tagged it in my mind. To me it is a mystery seen through a glass darkly. Maybe that will be wrapped up like a little gift to me some day when, according to the hymn, "we'll understand it better by and by" :)
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:11 pm

Eaglesway wrote:I just dig the exploration and I dont think God cares a lick if I am a Trinitarian or a Biblical Unitarian.


I'd give you some "high fives" if I could - well said!!
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Re: Essentials

Postby Bob Wilson » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:32 pm

Everyone here realizes that there is a whole spectrum of understandings about Christology and the nature of God, and that theological labels can be fuzzy. But me thinks quibbling over terminology has gotten extreme, such as questioning the use of "Unitariansim" without discussing multiple nuances. Statements such as, "the moniker 'Unitarianism'... does not necessarily equal non-Trin" seem to me unrealistic. If it's not reasonable to generalize that folk who prefer the label Unitarian are those who don't prefer to be called a Trinitarian (as if Robin needs to delineate rare exceptions), then none of us could intelligibly communicate to evangelicals or others with enough nuance to avoid being forever faulted.

It appears to me that firm traditionalists who once flourished on this site have avoided weighing in on this debate. I've repeatedly rejected the moniker Trinitarian, and taken heat, including losing my role as a voting moderator. Yet I honestly feel that some of this discussion sounds more defensive and legalistic, rather than serious about fairly communicating. We who feel that we have a high and Biblical view of Christ, and that later forms of Trinitarian language are not desirable do not need to be offended if we are considered non-trin., or to hold a position contrary to the tradition of the evangelical movement. I'm not aware that any leaders here have argued that this makes us less acceptable to God. So I think the only worthy debate which I have sought to preserve is concerning which language is most Biblical, true, and important.
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:01 pm

Bob Wilson wrote:I'm not aware that any leaders here have argued that this makes us less acceptable to God. So I think the only worthy debate which I have sought to preserve is concerning which language is most Biblical, true, and important.


I agree with your last sentence completely and wish I had said it.
Quibbling over terminology, though - I think precision in what one is saying is important. Not - how many angels on the head of a pin? type of precision, of course- but unless we are as precise as we can be, we are going to be misunderstood. Even when we speak clearly, for cryin' out loud, somebody is going to mis-interpret us. :D But quibbling is of course a distraction.
Sometimes, trying to be precise makes one sound legalistic and picky, when in fact one is just trying to be CLEAR.

Your first sentence gives me hope; if the question is NOT whether those that disagree with Orthodoxy are less acceptable to God or not - that the much more important issue is in fact our acceptableness to God rather than our self-designed orthodox box then I for one feel resolved on this. Happily and giddily. :lol:

As to the moniker - There are spectrums as you say and as I pointed out, but not everyone here recognizes that, I daresay. It is helpful when labeling a person's beliefs to state what you mean by the label; they might not agree with it!

You're a blessing to the Forum, Bob.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Eaglesway » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:35 am

I agree with those sentiments, but for many people soteriology is about who is acceptable to God......
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Re: Essentials

Postby Bob Wilson » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:06 am

Eaglesway, While soteriology likely implies questions of 'acceptability' to God, is a universalist's statement that evangelicals see Unitarianism as not Biblical, a statement about "Soteriology," or even one that should be seen as equivalent to saying that non-Trinitarians will be rejected by God? I haven't gotten that impression from even fervent evangelical Trinitarian universalists here.
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Re: Essentials

Postby qaz » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:31 pm

I don't understand how a Christian could read the NT and not be a Trinitarian, but I love you non-Trins all the same.
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:49 pm

Hi qaz - JUst askin' here, not picking a fight - do you mean trinitarianism as set forth here:
https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

Or a different form? - there are a number of trinitarian theories.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Bob Wilson » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:38 pm

As seen in their statement of faith, the linguistic affirmation that satisfied the site team was, "We believe in one God always existing as three persons who are revealed as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:42 pm

Short and to the point! :)
I'm not pursuing a theological debate - really just wondering what form of the -ism is being referred to.
It's a fascinating subject as long as we stick to a certain Bob Wilson's advice, which I currently have as my signature.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:58 pm

DaveB wrote:Short and to the point! :)


Like this :?: :lol:

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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:19 pm

:lol:
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Re: Essentials

Postby Eaglesway » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:53 pm

Bob Wilson wrote:Eaglesway, While soteriology likely implies questions of 'acceptability' to God, is a universalist's statement that evangelicals see Unitarianism as not Biblical, a statement about "Soteriology," or even one that should be seen as equivalent to saying that non-Trinitarians will be rejected by God? I haven't gotten that impression from even fervent evangelical Trinitarian universalists here.


I havent gotten that impression from anyone either. I just thought that DaveB's impression about the words "betrayal of the gospel" were to some extent legit, so I was speaking about a general situation where people often attach belief in the Trinity to their soteriology, which would lend some swing weight to those words. In that context, "betrayal of the gospel" could be interpreted that way, but I wasnt trying to pigeon hole anyone, just making general observations about the subject matter as the discussion opened up.

For instance, I do the think the history of how men enforce theology bears on the credibility of their theological constructs, which I mentioned relating to hellism as well as deity issues.
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:37 pm

Bob Wilson wrote: I've repeatedly rejected the moniker Trinitarian, and taken heat, including losing my role as a voting moderator. ...we.. do not need to be offended if we are considered non-trin., ...So I think the only worthy debate which I have sought to preserve is concerning which language is most Biblical, true, and important.


Wise words, and gracious, after taking heat especially. You've set a good example for all of us.

Of all the questions that have arisen and are yet to be answered concerning the Muslim religion, the question: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? - is most vexing. I've been following MavPhil's extensive threads on the subject, and what I thought would be an easy answer - well it ain't so easy. I've settled on my own opinion, but I'm going to go any further than calling it that. There is a reason I bring this up? Yes, two actually.

1.First, the main focus of the 'same God' problem (SGP) as between Muslim and Christian is, for many people, the tri-unity of the Xn and the strict monotheism of the Muslim. I think that's a wrong-headed approach, but there is a lot of discussion centered around the SGP in trin/monotheist terminology and concepts. Too big a problem to go into here.

2. It slowly dawns on one, going through the arguments concerning the SGP, that the question will eventually be asked - does that Xn worship the same God as that other Xn? That's the cutting question.

The answers range from a curt "yes of course" to a curt 'no' to a whole lot of not curt 'maybes' and 'probablies'.
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:52 pm

Bob Wilson wrote: I've repeatedly rejected the moniker Trinitarian, and taken heat, including losing my role as a voting moderator. ...we.. do not need to be offended if we are considered non-trin., ...So I think the only worthy debate which I have sought to preserve is concerning which language is most Biblical, true, and important.


Wise words, and gracious, after taking heat especially. You've set a good example for all of us.

Of all the questions that have arisen and are yet to be answered concerning the Muslim religion, the question: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? - is most vexing. I've been following MavPhil's extensive threads on the subject, and what I thought would be an easy answer - well it ain't so easy. I've settled on my own opinion, but I'm going to go any further than calling it that. There is a reason I bring this up? Yes, two actually.

1.First, the main focus of the 'same God' problem (SGP) as between Muslim and Christian is, for many people, the tri-unity of the Xn and the strict monotheism of the Muslim. I think that's a wrong-headed approach, but there is a lot of discussion centered around the SGP in trin/monotheist terminology and concepts. Too big a problem to go into here.

2. It slowly dawns on one, going through the arguments concerning the SGP, that the question will eventually be asked - does that Xn worship the same God as that other Xn? That's the cutting question.

The answers range from a curt "yes of course" to a curt 'no' to a whole lot of not-curt 'maybes' and 'probablies'. One's soteriology does play a part in how that question is answered.
Bob's admonitions have been to the point (and some of you others as well of course). We must be careful to only add to our confession what is CLEAR in scripture, if we are addressing the SGP.
I hope we don't go too far down that road - the SGP road - as that road can be disastrous if not handled with extreme care.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Paidion » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:56 pm

Qaz wrote:I don't understand how a Christian could read the NT and not be a Trinitarian, but I love you non-Trins all the same.


I don't think anyone who has read the NT without bringing to his reading, Trinitarian thought that he had already accepted, would be have found the Trinity anywhere therein, except possibly I John 5:7. But that verse did not occur in any Greek text of 1 John until the ninth century. It first appeared as a footnote, and afterward was copied directly into the text.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Cindy Skillman » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:27 pm

I just got back on the forum this evening (log-in issues), so I apologize for missing this hot topic. No way I'm going to read all this. I just would like to share a little about my understanding of the reason this forum was started.

There are lots and bunches of Unitarian websites and discussion sites, and God bless you all and all of the Unitarians. They are accepted and beloved of God. THIS, however, is a site whose very inception was for the purpose of reaching out to EVANGELICALS who do think that Unitarianism (not just for its nontrinitarian doctrines, but for other reasons as well) is a betrayal of the gospel.They just do. Whether or not this is an accurate representation is beside the point. This website was started in order to facilitate the introduction of EVANGELICAL Christians to the concept of Universalism, discussing it as a doctrine that does in fact integrate well with EVANGELICAL doctrines.

That's NOT to say that our many wonderful and lovely and loving non-Evangelical brothers and sisters aren't welcome here, or that they are not very much appreciated and encouraged to continue to engage in discussion of their viewpoints. No one here (so far as I know) considers any of our nontrinitarian members to be betrayers of the gospel. They're doing their best to seek out truth and be faithful to the leading of the Holy Spirit. They--all of them--are very welcome to hang out in this Evangelical living room, drink coffee, sip tea, quaff brewskis, and chew fat. That said, it is still an Evangelical living room, and the tenets of this house are basically Evangelical. There are lots of living rooms of Unitarian houses, and in those hang-outs, such a remark (as Robin Parry's) would be inappropriate. In THIS living room, the whole point is to introduce Evangelicals to a Universalism that does not negate or violate their foundational doctrines. Dissenting friends are always welcome, and encouraged to make themselves at home, but they don't get to make it into a general public room. It's still the living room of an Evangelical house.

I hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, and the LAST thing I want to do is to make anyone feel unwelcome. It's just that we do need all kinds of houses, and we need this one to be what it is.
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:10 pm

There are of course some language uses, pejoratives for instance, that don't belong in anyone's living room. I for one will really try not to name-call or "labelize" (?) from henceforth. And would appreciate the same from the homeowners as, by and large, has been the case. :D
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Re: Essentials

Postby Cindy Skillman » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:27 pm

:)
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Re: Essentials

Postby steve7150 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:32 am

I don't understand how a Christian could read the NT and not be a Trinitarian, but I love you non-Trins all the same.







For one thing but not the only thing it's not clear that the Holy Spirit is God and is in fact a "He". Maybe he is but I have heard persuasive arguments both ways.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:41 am

steve7150 wrote:I don't understand how a Christian could read the NT and not be a Trinitarian, but I love you non-Trins all the same..


I't's just about as unimaginable to me, as folks seeing the X-Files back on TV and not becoming exited about it :!:

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While the 2016 episode 1 was a let down, it's back up to speed in Episode 2. It just conflicts time wise, with Super Girl on CVS. But Super Girl has gotten pretty exciting, with the Martian Manhunter, being part of the show. But afterwards, I can watch the nerds on Scorpion :!: :lol:

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Here's something you can try, that I've shared on Twitter today: :lol:


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Re: Essentials

Postby steve7150 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:28 am

I't's just about as unimaginable to steve7150 wrote:I don't understand how a Christian could read the NT and not be a Trinitarian, but I love you non-Trins all the same..

me, as folks seeing the X-Files back on TV and not becoming exited about it :!:






Actually the quote above was from Qaz. :o
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:54 am

steve7150 wrote:I't's just about as unimaginable to steve7150 wrote:I don't understand how a Christian could read the NT and not be a Trinitarian, but I love you non-Trins all the same..

me, as folks seeing the X-Files back on TV and not becoming exited about it :!:


Actually the quote above was from Qaz. :o


Multitasking again. It can trip me up at times. :!: :lol:

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Re: Essentials

Postby pilgrim » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:54 am

DaveB wrote:Of all the questions that have arisen and are yet to be answered concerning the Muslim religion, the question: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? - is most vexing. I've been following MavPhil's extensive threads on the subject, and what I thought would be an easy answer - well it ain't so easy. I've settled on my own opinion, but I'm going to go any further than calling it that. There is a reason I bring this up? Yes, two actually.

1.First, the main focus of the 'same God' problem (SGP) as between Muslim and Christian is, for many people, the tri-unity of the Xn and the strict monotheism of the Muslim. I think that's a wrong-headed approach, but there is a lot of discussion centered around the SGP in trin/monotheist terminology and concepts. Too big a problem to go into here.

2. It slowly dawns on one, going through the arguments concerning the SGP, that the question will eventually be asked - does that Xn worship the same God as that other Xn? That's the cutting question.

The answers range from a curt "yes of course" to a curt 'no' to a whole lot of not curt 'maybes' and 'probablies'.


This is a fascinating question/problem Dave.
If I give an answer "no", then as you say, it could be seen as curt. If I also say that I worship a different God to Calvinists, then this may confirm my 'lack of love', but although those examples may be a true reflection of my beliefs, I need to add that I think we ALL worship different Gods in that each of us has a construct in our minds which doesn't come close to the true God. We do our best but the characteristics I impose on my God will be very/slightly different to my fellow traveler and those characteristics IMO are much more important than whether we hold to a virgin birth or triune being or.....
To be clear, I think I would feel easier worshiping with a muslim such as Rumi than worshiping with, say, a hyper-Calvinist.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:17 am

Well, Pilgrim, I joked about the question before.

So if they ask me questions like: Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?... I say the conclusion of this scholarly presentation, is one I'm FULLY in accord with:


So it looks like there is no easy answer to the title question. It depends on the resolution of intricate questions in the philosophy of language.


But there is a lot of seriousness in that answer. If you ask if indigenous people, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Christians and Bahais, worship a monotheistic God, who created the universe, the answer is Yes.

If you ask - for example - "does the Christian and Muslim God, have the same attributes" - the answer is NO. You just need to read the book What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur'an by James W. White, to answer that question. The God of Christianity is a God of grace and forgiveness. The God of Islam has angels count your good and bad deeds and has a system of laws. Hopefully, the good deeds outweigh the bad, at the end of life. Only in their mystical movement of Sufism, does Islam approach Christianity.

To understand more, read the referred book. Or watch the Theosophical Society webcast this Thursday, 1/28/16 at 7 PM CST on Islamic Spirituality: The Role of Religious Law, by a professor in religious studies. He's at the College of Dupage (with a PhD from Yale). Or watch the rebroadcast, about a week later, at Theosophical Society rebroadcasts

It's nice that the Faculty advisory board at Wheaton College, recently recommended dropping the termination procedure against the black professor. She said "Muslims and Christians worship the same God". Perhaps if she hired me to intercede (at the college on her behalf), this would never have become an issue. :lol:
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:27 am

Good stuff.
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Re: Essentials

Postby steve7150 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:39 am

If you ask - for example - "does the Christian and Muslim God, have the same attributes" - the answer is NO. You just need to read the book What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur'an b6 James W. White, to answer that question. The God of Christianity is a God of grace and forgiveness. The God of Islam has angels count your good and bad deeds and has a system of laws. Hopefully, the good deeds outweigh the bad, at the end of life. Only in their mystical movement of Sufism, does Islam approach Christianity.






Yes plus many other differences. In Islam God is never thought of as a Father nor are believers sons of God. God is unknowable, distant , believers are slaves, salvation is uncertain except in martyrdom and women are property and to believe God had a Son is blasphemous.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:57 am

steve7150 wrote:If you ask - for example - "does the Christian and Muslim God, have the same attributes" - the answer is NO. You just need to read the book What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur'an b6 James W. White, to answer that question. The God of Christianity is a God of grace and forgiveness. The God of Islam has angels count your good and bad deeds and has a system of laws. Hopefully, the good deeds outweigh the bad, at the end of life. Only in their mystical movement of Sufism, does Islam approach Christianity.






Yes plus many other differences. In Islam God is never thought of as a Father nor are believers sons of God. God is unknowable, distant , believers are slaves, salvation is uncertain except in martyrdom and women are property and to believe God had a Son is blasphemous.


Plus there is a certain amount of fatalism in Islamic theology and philosophy. Just read the New York Times article Islam’s Tragic Fatalism
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Re: Essentials

Postby Eaglesway » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:02 am

I think presenting biblical universalism to the body of Christ at large, or even just evangelicals as a group, presents more than enough challenges for those of us who understand it to unite around and stay focused upon. To me it is a way more important understanding than the issues surrounding the structure of Deity, or Calvinism vs Aminianism, or preterism vs historicism, or symbolism versus literalism, or liberalism vs fundamentalism :lol:

Thank God,

It WILL all come out in the wash.

I dont think anyone will be known as a Trinitarian or a Unitarian or an Evangelical, Catholic or Protestant once that sun comes over the horizon.

For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
1 Pet 1

For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.1 Cor 4
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Re: Essentials

Postby steve7150 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:48 pm

It WILL all come out in the wash.






Easy for you to say, you haven't seen my wash? It's interesting how folks react not even to CU but simply to the possibility of salvation after death. I said that to a Christian friend of my wife and it made her angry? It's like if other people can get saved it makes their salvation less special? At least I can't think of any other explanation.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:08 pm

steve7150 wrote:It WILL all come out in the wash.


Easy for you to say, you haven't seen my wash? I.



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Re: Essentials

Postby Paidion » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:33 pm

Steve 7150 wrote:God is unknowable, distant , believers are slaves...

and
Randy wrote:Plus there is a certain amount of fatalism in Islamic theology and philosophy.


It's beginning to sound a lot like Calvinism.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:55 pm

"[The Reformers’] creed has been described as a return to the Gospel in the spirit of the Koran."
The Very Rev. W. R. Inge, The Platonic Tradition in English Religious Thought, 1926
Bill Maher asked, "So how do you convince people of the truth?"
Father Reginald Foster answered, "You don't. Forget it. You just have to... You just have to live and die with their stupid ideas. I'm sorry. What are you going to do?"
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Re: Essentials

Postby Eaglesway » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:51 am

steve7150 wrote:It WILL all come out in the wash.






Easy for you to say, you haven't seen my wash? It's interesting how folks react not even to CU but simply to the possibility of salvation after death. I said that to a Christian friend of my wife and it made her angry? It's like if other people can get saved it makes their salvation less special? At least I can't think of any other explanation.



I think if they saw that their destiny is to restore the creation, arm in arm with Jesus, it could help- but they are mostly stuck between heaven and hell. Christian heaven being some kind of nirvana of hymn singing and praise and staring at Jesus for a thousand years every once in a while between flying around with angels(for the daring)..... you know, just so ecstatically grateful not to be burning forever like those folks screaming over on the other side of the wall down in the ditch of molten lava. ;)
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:28 am

Paidion wrote:
Steve 7150 wrote:God is unknowable, distant , believers are slaves...

and
Randy wrote:Plus there is a certain amount of fatalism in Islamic theology and philosophy.


It's beginning to sound a lot like Calvinism.


Actually, Paidion, you might have come up with an interesting insight:

Both have a constricted view of the nature of God, a view that limits human responsibility. Calvinism is characterized by a belief that, before all time, God decided who was saved and who was damned. Whatever good we do cannot save us if we have been damned. No matter how much we pray to God for our salvation, no matter how much others pray for our salvation, no matter how much the saints intercede for us, our predestined end cannot change.

The analogous belief in Islam is that everything is Allah’s will. No matter how careful we are, if Allah intends for us to be killed in an automobile accident, it will happen. If we drive 100 miles per hour drunk on the wrong side of a highway, and Allah does not intend for us to be killed, we will not be.

Calvinism and Islam are characterized by unjust and harsh laws. John Calvin had a baby’s hand cut off when the baby hit his father. Women are killed in Moslem countries for things beyond their control.

Both Islam and Calvinism practice an extreme form of textual literalism in understanding scripture. Scripture acquires a position as a first principle in both religions rather than as a part of Revelation. Neither asks how God has revealed scripture; both simply believe in scripture as if its divine origin were obvious.


And the article also says this:

In traditional Christianity, the central act of worship is the Eucharist, a miraculous event. It is celebrated most solemnly on Sundays and great feasts. In Calvinism, the central act of worship is the Sunday sermon; in Islam, it is the Friday sermon.

Finally, both Islam and Calvinism produce self-righteousness and intolerance. Both were born in pride. Christianity encourages humility. We are tolerant of those who are obviously in error, and we recognize the limits of our ability to correct them by reason. We know, however, that God may give them the gift of seeing the truth; and we pray for this gift humbly.


You just need to read the book What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur'an by James W. White (available via your local US public library - or equivalent in other countries). Or watch the Theosophical Society webcast this Thursday, 1/28/16 at 7 PM CST on Islamic Spirituality: The Role of Religious Law, by a professor in religious studies. He's at the College of Dupage (with a PhD from Yale). Or watch the rebroadcast, about a week later, at Theosophical Society rebroadcasts
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Re: Essentials

Postby Paidion » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:34 am

When I was 21, I attended a Bible school for a year. I recall that the History-of-Missions instructor spoke of a Muslim who had killed his wife, and who then stated that it was the will of God.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:52 am

Paidion wrote:When I was 21, I attended a Bible school for a year. I recall that the History-of-Missions instructor spoke of a Muslim who had killed his wife, and who then stated that it was the will of God.

I believe that watching the Yale PhD philosophy professor, speak on Islamic law - has the option for remote questions. If so, I plan to ask about fatalism in Islam. If we assume a 100% deterministic theological and philosophical model of reality and God, then why do anything? And if we accept the Muslim's view on killing his wife, then God creates both evil, and metal illness. But I feel strongly - that the Muslim (being laity) - got it wrong! The Christian site Answering Islam, gives the answer that Islamic scholars would give:


And let's look at some Quora answers regarding this:


But fatalism is very strong - in both Islam and Calvinism. We might as well accept this Christian woman's version, that the devil made her buy that dress:

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Re: Essentials

Postby steve7150 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:32 pm

Randy wrote:Plus there is a certain amount of fatalism in Islamic theology and philosophy.


It's beginning to sound a lot like Calvinism.








Yes actually Calvinism on steroids. Like if a women gets raped, she is killed for it possibly because it was Allah's will?
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:37 pm

steve7150 wrote:Randy wrote:Plus there is a certain amount of fatalism in Islamic theology and philosophy.


It's beginning to sound a lot like Calvinism.



Yes actually Calvinism on steroids. Like if a women gets raped, she is killed for it possibly because it was Allah's will?


Well, Steve, i'm not here to defend Islam. That's a job for Muslims, on Muslim and secular forums (i.e. Quora). But I would say they are mixing tribal customs with Islam. No secular court would let them get away with it. Nor would most - if not all - legitimate Islamic courts. Unless it's some goofy faction like ISIS.
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Re: Essentials

Postby steve7150 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:18 pm

Well, Steve, i'm not here to defend Islam. That's a job for Muslims, on Muslim and secular forums (i.e. Quora). But I would say they are mixing tribal customs with Islam. No secular court would let them get away with it. Nor would most - if not all - legitimate Islamic courts. Unless it's some goofy faction like ISIS.






Well Randy my source are ex Muslims who became Christians and talk about Islam and what it's holy books the Quran and Hadith actually say. So it is second hand info but corroborated by three or four people usually.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:43 pm

steve7150 wrote:Well, Steve, i'm not here to defend Islam. That's a job for Muslims, on Muslim and secular forums (i.e. Quora). But I would say they are mixing tribal customs with Islam. No secular court would let them get away with it. Nor would most - if not all - legitimate Islamic courts. Unless it's some goofy faction like ISIS.

Well Randy my source are ex Muslims who became Christians and talk about Islam and what it's holy books the Quran and Hadith actually say. So it is second hand info but corroborated by three or four people usually.


    Which raises an interesting point, that was brought to me years ago - by a Buddhist scholar. He said that many who become imans (i.e. Islamic clerics), actually are uneducated. Imaging a similar situation, where many of our priests and ministers just purchased an online ordination certificate and are preaching to us, on how to conduct our lives, what the bible says, etc.
    The other point is my friendship with Muslims, is limited to those in the US, who are professionals (i.e. doctors). I'm very much opposed to an Islamic state or country (i.e. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc.). Just as I'm opposed to dictatorships - like North Korea. Church and state should be separated - period. End of Story.

the "big picture" is this:

    While they say there are only two divisions - Sunni and Shiite - in reality, they are as divided as any religion. The Islamic scholars - for example - are debating which Hadith to accept and reject. Which to include and exclude.
    The secular Academic scholars have a different picture of what Islam is saying or trying to say.
    The popular imans - often not educated - often mix tribal customs, with what they think Islam is saying
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Re: Essentials

Postby Paidion » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:56 pm

Randy wrote:Church and state should be separated - period. End of Story.


Not quite the end of story. Initially, the separation of church and state was not for the purpose of keeping the church out of the state, but for keeping the state from interfering with the church.
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:37 pm

Aha
I really have lived in books. Books are friends. They are some of the friends that make you who you are.
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Re: Essentials

Postby DaveB » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:50 pm

I just posted a very interesting article in the 'Controversial' part of the Forum. Having to do with the 'same God' question, Islam and Christian.
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Re: Essentials

Postby steve7150 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:55 pm

I'm very much opposed to an Islamic state or country (i.e. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc.). Just as I'm opposed to dictatorships - like North Korea. Church and state should be separated - period. End of Story.







OK I agree but i'm sure you know in Islam their is no separation between church and state because Islam is not just a religion it is also "state" in the sense of it's Sharia law which is the law of state as well as church.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:52 pm

steve7150 wrote: I'm very much opposed to an Islamic state or country (i.e. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc.). Just as I'm opposed to dictatorships - like North Korea. Church and state should be separated - period. End of Story.

OK I agree but i'm sure you know in Islam their is no separation between church and state because Islam is not just a religion it is also "state" in the sense of it's Sharia law which is the law of state as well as church.


Yes, I'm very familiar with it. Actually, I've been advising the head of the Anglican church I attend. The local Islamic center (actually, a Pentecostal church they took over - near where I live) invited them for fellowship. I'm giving him information, so he can make an informed decision. But here is the US, church and state are separate (however we want to spin it - chicken or egg scenario). And I'll fight, to keep it that way. :!: :D
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Re: Essentials

Postby steve7150 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:49 am

The local Islamic center (actually, a Pentecostal church they took over - near where I live) invited them for fellowship.







Sorry if i'm beating a dead horse but I did want to comment on this. Islam taking over a church as opposed to a neutral site is common and is looked at as a conquest. Islam giving up a religious spot or land it occupied is a major insult to the religion.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:57 am

steve7150 wrote: The local Islamic center (actually, a Pentecostal church they took over - near where I live) invited them for fellowship.

Sorry if i'm beating a dead horse but I did want to comment on this. Islam taking over a church as opposed to a neutral site is common and is looked at as a conquest. Islam giving up a religious spot or land it occupied is a major insult to the religion.


The only point I find in common with Islam, is with their Sufi mystical movement. There they focus on God as all around and capable of striving for union. But many orthodox Muslims don't like the Sufis. I don't judge folks on what religion they belong to. I'm more concerned with how they try to emulate Christ - even if they belong to the Christian faith.

Actually, I hung around Muslims and Christians (Roman Catholics and Assembly of God) both - as a Peace Corps volunteer in Liberia, West Africa. The Muslims were ivory carvers, traders in artwork, etc. I was a guest of a Muslim in Sierra Leone, West Africa. I was treated well by them, even through I was not Muslim. And my homeopathic physician has a Muslim family (even though he is agnostic and scientific). I even went to the son's wedding (he is a physician).

And to make Steve feel better, I'll share this video and article from the Christian site Patheos today:




And if you watch the first two minutes, you understand:

    My liking of the Indigenous folks, regarding their visions and dreams
    My deceased mom's lifelong gift of prophesy

And if this vision stuff is working for the average Muslim - why NOT the Christian? :?: Is it because you no longer believe in it? :?: Think about this - seriously. :!:

Having said that, I'm all for cooperation among western intelligence services (i.e. Europe, Indian, Chinese, US, Canada, Israel, and Russia), to keep tabs on what the "radical" Islamic elements are up to (of course, things will be smooth sailing, if Trump is elected US president :roll: See Jerry Falwell, Jr Endorses Donald Trump for President; Trump Still Leads in Evangelical Support).
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Re: Essentials

Postby steve7150 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:23 am

And to make Steve feel better, I'll share this video and article from the Christian site Patheos today:

Summit Lecture Series:







Nabeel is an awesome guy, I have seen him many times. I have no issue with individual muslims, they are just people like everyone else.
Most are unfamiliar with the militant aspects of Islam and are cultural muslims even if they pray five times a day. But when the women start wearing these black outfits covering everything except two slits for their eyes then it's time to pay attention.
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Re: Essentials

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:31 am

A friend of mine sent me this video link today. I found it interesting, so I would share it here - for better or worse:

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