Is there more to Universal Salvation than ideology

Discussions pertaining to scripture and theology from a philosophical approach.

Is there more to Universal Salvation than ideology

Postby Joe121589 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:41 am

I sometimes still feel angry if someone criticizes Universal Salvation, and/or promotes Eternal Damnation. Which got me to thinking that there is something that goes beyond ideology. However, I have found that most spiritual traditions acknowledge that ultimate truth transcends ideology. In the Eastern Orthodox Churches, they don't see Dogma as a list of facts that must be believed, but a living ineffable experience. Even that does not always happen in practice.

On the ideological ground, Universal Salvation can rest on A) Bible verses, B) Bible based reasoning, C) Moralism, and D) The Scientific Method

A. With Bible Verses, we have many verses that make a clear indication that all will be saved at some point. Though some hold to different theories, like the ever open gate, or the preset age of redemption. Judgment in the bible is meant as a means to teach righteousness.

B. With Bible based reasoning, there is 1) God is all powerful and all loving as the bible asserts, and therefore claim that God will save everyone, 2) God is greater than Adam and the Devil, and Grace is greater than sin, even though sin, satan and Adam all had a powerful curse, 3) Fire torture to Baal was strongly condemned, 4) The Old Testament has no mention of Hell, 5) In the Old Testament, God forbid learning the Pagan ways, and the pagans had horrifying images of Hell, 6) The early Greek Fathers believed in UR, and only the latins who did not know Greek or Semitic society believed in Eternal Damnation, 7) The early Church from the beginning believed in UR, and gave no indication of ET until Tertullian, 8) ET only got any grounds not from scripture scholars but those educated in Roman Law, 9) People who strongly believe in ET dont live very Christlike lives, or keep his commands, and behave more like pharisees.

C. With Moralism, we have an exultation of moral principles, and apply them to divinity. We have 1) Social ethics against discrimination, judgment, torture, 2) The view that punishment should not be excessive, or should not be used solely for retribution, 3) In Political ethics, Eternal Damnation resembles fascism, or lawless anarchy where the strong rule.

D. With Science, we can observe an intelligently designed universe designed by a good God, who provides for people regardless of their misdeeds. Quantum Mechanics and other modern sciences give an indication that everything is inter-connected and that consciousness is the ground of all being. Then NDE's and other supernatural investigations give no image of Hell, but typically point to something that is not stern and wrathful.re

However, all these premises can be challenged, and there is no true certainty in any ideologies, or any proof that these ideologies are any better. Which got me into wondering if our true knowledge of God utterly transcends the mind. And even that Universal Salvation is something beyond what we can truly comprehend.
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Re: Is there more to Universal Salvation than ideology

Postby steve7150 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:47 am

And even that Universal Salvation is something beyond what we can truly comprehend.












I'm a simple person and what i understand is God simply wants everyone to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth. God also called Jesus "the Savior of the world."
So God made these two unqualified statements and what God wants trumps everything IMO and this is comprehensible.
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Re: Is there more to Universal Salvation than ideology

Postby JasonPratt » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:57 am

On the ideological ground, Universal Salvation can rest on A) Bible verses, B) Bible based reasoning, C) Moralism, and D) The Scientific Method


There's also E.) Metaphysics (which would seem to fit with the "Philosophical" topic. ;) )

The idea that truth is more important than ideology is itself a philosophical and metaphysical claim, which is either true or untrue or perhaps true in one way but not in another. But it is by metaphysical evaluation (even if the evaluation is informal and not spelled out in detail) that we reason out whether one truth claim is better than another, including ideologies.

So yes there are actually ways to check which ideologies are better, though two given sets might have different faults and may be equally faulty or one might on balance be better than the other despite the different faults. (In theory two ideologies might not have inherent faults but one be better than another by covering more facts. There should only be one truest ideology though, whatever it is.)


But is there more to Universal Salvation than ideology? Certainly! Salvation, for example! :lol: And God is vastly more than universal salvation in so many ways. But that doesn't mean beliefs (about God or otherwise) are necessarily false. God's existence transcends the principle that 2 + 2 = 4, but that doesn't mean 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4 after all. Even a box of four oranges transcends the principle that 2 oranges and 2 oranges equals 4 oranges. But that doesn't make the principle, and the truth of the situation, any less important.
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Re: Is there more to Universal Salvation than ideology

Postby Joe121589 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:53 am

JasonPratt wrote:
On the ideological ground, Universal Salvation can rest on A) Bible verses, B) Bible based reasoning, C) Moralism, and D) The Scientific Method


There's also E.) Metaphysics (which would seem to fit with the "Philosophical" topic. ;) )

The idea that truth is more important than ideology is itself a philosophical and metaphysical claim, which is either true or untrue or perhaps true in one way but not in another. But it is by metaphysical evaluation (even if the evaluation is informal and not spelled out in detail) that we reason out whether one truth claim is better than another, including ideologies.

So yes there are actually ways to check which ideologies are better, though two given sets might have different faults and may be equally faulty or one might on balance be better than the other despite the different faults. (In theory two ideologies might not have inherent faults but one be better than another by covering more facts. There should only be one truest ideology though, whatever it is.)


But is there more to Universal Salvation than ideology? Certainly! Salvation, for example! :lol: And God is vastly more than universal salvation in so many ways. But that doesn't mean beliefs (about God or otherwise) are necessarily false. God's existence transcends the principle that 2 + 2 = 4, but that doesn't mean 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4 after all. Even a box of four oranges transcends the principle that 2 oranges and 2 oranges equals 4 oranges. But that doesn't make the principle, and the truth of the situation, any less important.


I would say no. But from what I have experienced, the deeper and greater the truth is, the less it can be grasped at. But I find that there really cannot be any truth unless there is a God that transcends all things that we can grasp at.
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