The septuagint translation, notice it only states that the tree of life is in the midst.

What? You would have the mature person able to recognize good but not evil? And therefore unable to distinguish good from evil? Surely such a person would be unable to be victorious over evil since he wouldn’t recognize it when he encountered it.

I quote once again:

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. (Heb 5:14)

Again I suggest that when they were mature, and had eaten from the tree of life, they would be ready to eat of this tree so that they could distinguish good from evil. Possessing this ability before they were mature was dangerous both to themselves and the world. It resulted in death.

Again I suggest that when they were mature, and had eaten from the tree of life, they would be ready to eat of this tree so that they could distinguish good from evil. Possessing this ability before they were mature was dangerous both to themselves and the world. It resulted in death.

Yet that’s exactly what happened and so God supposedly knowing they needed to mature first simply allowed Satan to persuade Eve? Satan the Master Deceiver in the universe verses Eve who was innocent and immature with no experience or knowledge of evil. God just allowed it although He didn’t really want it?
Why? To satisfy Satan’s free will? I think Eve had no ability to resist Satan therefore if God was satisfying Satan’s free will He would be violating Eve’s free will IMO.
I think part of maturation is learning good from evil and until they (Adam and Eve) actually experienced both together they would not mature. That’s why God either allowed or caused what happened.

The problem with that, Steve, as I see it is - experiencing evil is not just a ‘blot’ on the character of Adam and Eve - it is a radical change of that character - they are now ‘fallen’, not ‘just’ guilty of a sin. He that commits sin is a slave to sin.

I cannot believe that God would create ‘good’ human beings, with the intention of them becoming ruined human beings, who ushered in a ruined human race.

I cannot believe that God would create ‘good’ human beings, with the intention of them becoming ruined human beings, who ushered in a ruined human race.

If your descriptions are accurate then we agree. However i think the “good” part means good for God’s purposes and the “ruined” part means becoming like God. The description was not ruination but “knowing good and evil they have become like us.”

A necessary evil as they say.

Lots of mystery there.

Do you think - I don’t know - that the writer(s) of the garden story were just trying to make a few major points, and that we all are trying to parse out of it something it was not intended for? (I’m sorry Kate - I mean, for which it was not intended? )

What if the writer/s were only aiming for the themes of Creation, the goodness of creation, all of it; the wisdom and goodness of the Creator; the destruction of the heathen myths about our beginnings; the testing of the first couple; the fall into sin; and then on with the story? Was this painted with broad strokes or is it a supremely crafted story with each detail important, much like the Pre-Raphaelite painters in another thread?

Much to think about, but looking BACK at Genesis from the vantage point of the much clearer and fuller New Testament seems the wisest way to approach it; i.e., Paul’s use of the story.

Do you think - I don’t know - that the writer(s) of the garden story were just trying to make a few major points, and that we all are trying to parse out of it something it was not intended for? (I’m sorry Kate - I mean, for which it was not intended? )

Anything is possible but when Jesus referenced Genesis he never described it as if it were a story or a parable, it sounded like he believed it.

It’s about time for [tag]alecforbes[/tag] to weigh in with some gleanings from Enns perhaps?

Not to “satisfy” anyone’s free will, but to PERMIT free will.

Consider the millions of atrocites which occur daily in our world. Do you think God really wants them?—the tortures, the rapes, the child abuse, the sale of sex slaves, etc., etc. etc. Do you think because He “allows” them, He has some deeper purpose for them, and thus wants them to occur? If you do think so, do you not think He has the power to fulfill those deeper purposes while still precluding such atrocities?

The only reason of which I can think for God’s not preventing these atrocites is to make possible the free will of mankind.

The only reason of which I can think for God’s not preventing these atrocites is to make possible the free will of mankind.

Free will is not unfettered it is subject to God’s purposes. God flooded the world when He decided it was needed overriding mans free will. God destroyed Sodom overriding their free will. God judged Israel several times overriding their free will. There is nothing in scripture elevating mans free will to a sacred doctrine, it’s simply part of God’s purposes to the extent it’s useful.
So IMO God could have either destroyed Satan or at least barred him from Eden and truly give Eve free will. God can destroy Satan right now and reduce evil
in the world. I do consider atrocities and i have no good answer, which is also an issue for the free will doctrine because God has intervened in the past and could restrain atrocities. He could have prevented the holocaust. Was it the Jews free will to be in those camps? Whatever his reason it has to be for a greater good whether or not we can see it.

Hi Dave!

Well, I’m about 2/3rds of the way through Enns’s The Evolution of Adam, What the Bible Does and Doesn’t Say About Human Origins. Excellent book, by the way and quite helpful to me as someone who believes in evolution and sees major problems with a ‘literalist’ reading of Genesis. I’m tempted to throw out some “gleanings” but have just gotten into the section on Paul’s handling of Genesis which is for many people a major sticking point. Before presenting Enns’s views, I need to finish the book, I think. I might start a post this weekend once I’ve finished to discuss it.

By the way, Dave, your post upthread does sound very “Ennsian” (or at least parts of it do)!

Thanks Steve, I look forward to your comments!

I’ve taken some time to look at many of the OT uses of the Hebrew word for ‘midst’ - using the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer - and it does NOT seem to carry the connotation of “exact middle” or even “middle”. For instance, Gen. 18.26: “If I find in Sodom 50 righteous in the midst of the city” or Ex. 9.24: “About midnight I am going out in the midst of Egypt”.
The ISA gives about 175 uses of the same word, translated ‘midst’, that means ‘among’ or ‘in the group’ or 'in the general area of", etc.

My point is that I think we are driving the story away from its point if we insist that the TOKGE was in the exact middle of the garden, or that it was especially attractive, more than the other trees. It was pretty, and the fruit looked tasty, but I take it that all the trees in the garden had those same characteristics. It was the commandment not to eat that made it appear, to Eve, so especially attractive.

So perhaps it was not the case of putting a sizzling and fragrant steak in front of a starving person and saying, “Don’t eat”!
It was not a case of God dangling the most appealing of all treats, on the end of a stick, just to tempt the human pair. It was just one tree out of a garden of wonderful trees.

I’m still thinking about the snake.

It was the commandment not to eat that made it appear, to Eve, so especially attractive.

Yes and if true this suggests that Eve was no different then us and that there was no fall. If you tell your kid i’m leaving with you box A,B and C and no matter what you do, do not look in box B , which box will he/she want to look in?

Why does it HAVE TO BE for a greater good? Why couldn’t it be that God didn’t prevent it because he wouldn’t come against the free will of the Nazis?
Can you suggest a greater good to explain God’s non-intervention in the holocaust? And if it were for a greater good, couldn’t God have brought about that greater good without permitting the tortuous deaths of 6 million people?

There are many thousands, if not millions, of atrocities taking place in the world daily. Is God “allowing” them all for a greater good? And if so, why doesn’t God ever reveal clearly what that greater good is?

“and that there was no fall”

Is that the position you are coming from?

Why does it HAVE TO BE for a greater good? Why couldn’t it be that God didn’t prevent it because he wouldn’t come against the free will of the Nazis?
Can you suggest a greater good to explain God’s non-intervention in the holocaust? And if it were for a greater good, couldn’t God have brought about that greater good without permitting the tortuous deaths of 6 million people?

There are many thousands, if not millions, of atrocities taking place in the world daily. Is God “allowing” them all for a greater good? And if so, why doesn’t God ever reveal clearly what that greater good is?

Since God has intervened many times in the past why would He not intervene against the Nazi’s free will? It’s not as if God made a pact with mankind to give him free will. BTW speaking of free will, the way things happen in this life is often more a matter of power then free will. The Nazi’s had the free will to murder Jews and many others but it was against the free will of the victims, therefore the atrocities were more the result of power and evil then free will.
When i say i must believe the “greater good” theory it’s because i simply trust God that although i can’t see a benefit in this age, i choose to believe there is a benefit in the eternal plan of God. I have only this verse “knowing good and evil they have become like us” which i choose to believe means that to know evil it has to play itself out, at the price of great suffering to many people.

“and that there was no fall”

Is that the position you are coming from?

I don’t have any position but it appears to me Eve was like a typical child and many adults we see now, she wanted the most what she couldn’t have. If that’s true where did she fall, it appears to be how she was made.

You realize, of course, that this question is at the basis of the whole problem of evil which has been questioned and debated for millenia.
Why does God intervene sometimes and not at other times? With some people and not others?

Not only to prevent evil, but to promote good. Why does He sometimes save some people from death? And at other times and with other people does nothing. Why are some people resuscitated from death and others left to stay dead. Why are some people healed through God’s power and not others?
There were genuine healings at Katherine Kuhlman’s meetings, verified by medical doctors. But only about 5-10% of those who came to be healed were actually healed. Katherine herself was puzzled. She said this was the first question she would ask God when she met Him.

I do not have the answer to these questions, nor to your question as to why He did not intervene to stop the Nazis. Nor do I believe anyone else has the answer either. What I believe NOT to be the answer is that God has a higher purpose in “allowing” the many atrocities which daily occur, including the Nazi atrocities.

No, it is not a pact. Rather, it is a matter of how He created man. God created man in His own image. So what does that mean? It can’t mean a physical image since God is not physical but is spirit. (John 4:24). It must mean that man was created in the mental and spiritual image of God—and that includes free will. God is unwilling to remove the free will part or any other aspect of His image from man. He may at times override man’s free will, but never interferes with it.

I do not have the answer to these questions, nor to your question as to why He did not intervene to stop the Nazis. Nor do I believe anyone else has the answer either. What I believe NOT to be the answer is that God has a higher purpose in “allowing” the many atrocities which daily occur, including the Nazi atrocities.

Allowing atrocities as far as either of us can tell with our limited knowledge does not make sense nor does it seem just and justice is an attribute of God.
I have no issue that God wants to allow us as much free will as possible but when atrocities happen someone’s free will is being violated. The victims free will is being violated which you didn’t respond to.
We know God is just and we know atrocities are not just therefore in order for God not to violate His own character IMHO there must be a greater good that somehow emerges in the next age although we can’t comprehend it. I have no foundation for believing this except “knowing good and evil they have become like us.”