The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"Heaven: We Have a Problem"

Not long ago I was talking with my husband about heaven and hell and who goes where and why. He told me, “You have a big problem with your idea that God will restore everything and everybody. There are verses in the Bible that clearly teach that some people will never be restored to God.” I agreed; I *do *have a problem. But I added, “We *both *have a problem. My problem is that some verses do seem to teach that some people will be eternally condemned. Your problem is that some verses seem to teach that ultimately God will redeem and restore His entire creation.”

So we have two competing ideas:
1) Some people will never be redeemed.
2) God will eventually redeem all people.

Two contradictory ideas, both with scriptural warrant but mutually exclusive. They cannot both be true; what is a Christian to do? Some will automatically reject one of these statements or the other. Those who hold to the traditional view of hell (historically, the majority of Christians) accept statement 1 and consider the universalistic thrust of statement 2 to be erroneous if not heretical. For example, one person told me, “It is an undeniable fact that the Word of God teaches that those who die in their sins go to hell. They will suffer conscious torments forever. [You have been given] the scriptures pertaining to this teaching. If interpretation of certain other scriptures lead you to believe otherwise, then the interpretation of those scriptures is wrong.”

Others (a thread of Christians throughout church history and a growing number of twenty-first-century believers) reject statement 1 on the basis that the God of love revealed in Scripture does not condemn anyone to an eternity of suffering. They would say that God’s plan to redeem and restore His entire creation is an undeniable fact of Scripture, and if the interpretation of certain other Scriptures leads you to believe otherwise, then that interpretation needs to be re-evaluated. A variant of these positions is annihilationism—the idea that the wicked are punished and eventually are destroyed and cease to exist. According to this doctrine, like the traditional position, statement 1 is true and statement 2 is false.

Thoughtful people on all sides will recognize that we *do *have a dilemma. Since it is impossible for both ideas to be true, one idea must be more fundamental, and verses that seem to teach the other must be interpreted in light of the foundational idea. In the traditional view, the belief that the wicked are eternally separated from God is a non-negotiable. Passages like Isaiah 66:24 and Daniel 12:2 in the Old Testament, and Matthew 25:46, Luke 16:19˗31, 2 Thessalonians 1:8˗9, 2 Peter 3:7, Jude 14˗15, Revelation 20:11˗15, Revelation 21:7˗8, and Revelation 22:14˗15 in the New Testament are cited as proof that the wicked are condemned to everlasting torment from which there is no hope of escape. Hebrews 9:27 is quoted as evidence that there is no possibility of salvation after physical death. Any verses that seem to teach that God will ultimately redeem all mankind are subordinated to the doctrine of eternal condemnation.

Conversely, those who hold that God’s love, as expressed in Christ on the cross, is foundational will interpret the eternal damnation verses in light of the ultimate purpose of God to reconcile all to Himself. They appeal to the character of God as revealed throughout Scripture and to the many passages that speak of His plans for restoration. They believe it is entirely consistent with God’s enduring mercy to continue to call sinners to Himself after they die. One passage that seems to teach the reconciliation of all is Colossians 1, which I exegete in my essay “Reconciliation: The Heart of God’s Grand Plan for Creation.” Many other verses are discussed in my series “Presuppositions and Interpretations.” There I present the traditional treatment of these verses, as found in the NIV Study Bible, and I suggest that the verses ought instead to be interpreted according to their plain sense, i.e., that in the end God truly will redeem all.

Unless you dismiss the issue altogether, you have to take a stand one way or the other. Which doctrine is your foundational, central truth, around which the other must revolve? I would be interested to know what you readers think. I invite you to add a comment to this paper and state which proposition your belief system contains as a fundamental, non-negotiable truth: 1) Some people will never be redeemed, or 2) God will eventually redeem all people. “I don’t know” is a valid response. So is “Neither” or “Irrelevant” or “Cannot be known.” “Both” is not a logically acceptable answer.

So when it comes to the question of heaven and who goes there, we do have a problem: Scripture *seems *to give contradictory messages. Will God reconcile all people to Himself to be with Him forever, as some passages suggest, or will some people be separated from Him forever, as other passages seem to say? This paper simply acknowledges and states the problem. But I believe this apparent contradiction can be resolved in favor of universal redemption by interpreting the eternal damnation proof texts in light of the much greater weight of Scripture that speaks of God’s majestic character and His eternal purposes.

Well I’d say a good place to start is with heaven and hell. Our (majority christianity) conception of heaven and hell is unbiblical. Its more akin to Greek myth. Heaven as some airy place where we float around as bodiless spirits, and hell where people are burned alive in a pit with a giant devil laughing over them.

Once we break down those false ideas I think many issues can be seen with a clearer view (in relation to who goes to heaven and who goes to hell)

I fully believe that 100% of creation will be redeemed, restored, reconciled, all in all.

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura brings with it A LOT OF WORK! No denomination or church to simply solve the issue by it’s authority, but rather the study of God’s Word is now the project for the church to take seriously. Sometimes I wish that I could just be Catholic and appeal to “sacred tradition”!

Hi Roofus

-I think you just have appealed to protestant tradition (unless you can find Sola Scriptura in the Bible). :wink:

Hello Diane and welcome!
I agree with your OP. Have you read Thomas Talbot because he comes very much from this starting position ("The Inescapable Love of God ") ?

I posted this in another tread. But I believe that this addresses the problem. We must interpret everything through Jesus Christ.

Sola Scriptura wouldn’t appeal to any tradition as binding, but only the Scriptures.

Nimblewill, you might be interested in my recent post “Reconciliation: The Heart of God’s Grand Plan for Creation.”

The challenge I’ve faced in sharing my faith in Christ for everyone is getting people to even admit that some scriptures strongly affirm UR; they easily dismiss “all” meaning “all”. The certainty of damnation for all those except “whatever” is so ingrained that they, like I did for 40 years, do not even see the passages that affirm UR.

The 2nd challenge is getting people to reconsider the scriptures they assume affirm ECT. For me, it was studying what scripture actually says concerning the punishment of sin that freed me to believe in UR. A few things stood out to me.

  1. Neither sheol, hades, or gehenna mean “Hell” or imply ECT, though they were all mistranslated sometimes as Hell in the KJV.
  2. Hell is not warned of once in Moses’ Law though the concept of Hell was a part of Egyptian mythology. One of the purposes of the Law was to highlight how the Jews’ beliefs, life-styles, civil government, and religious life were to be different from the surrounding nations. This is very heavy against ECT imo.
  3. Hebrew does not have a word that means Hell.
  4. And though Greek has a word that connotes Hell, Tartarus, neither Jesus nor the writers of the NT once warned of Tartarus for humans. The one time it is used in 2 Peter it is for sinning angels and even then it’s only until the Judgment, not ECT.

The problem is that few Christians who are passionate about their beliefs are willing to reconsider such a foundational believe as Hell. For infernalists, the doctrine of Hell peppers every other doctrine. It’s a lense through which one views every scripture concerning judgment and the punishment of sin.

Hi Sherman,

Thanks for your observations. Watch for my paper on “Presuppositions and Interpretations.” It’s on the theme that you have mentioned here–that people come to the Scriptures with a certain set of presuppositions and view what they read through that grid. We need to challenge them to reconsider not just their interpretations of a text but their underlying assumptions and the paradigms into which they try to fit those interpretations.

I go with 2), that God will eventually redeem all people. :sunglasses:

However, I think the competition between 1 & 2 is prima facie because of some English translations. Most of the support for 1 crumbles once aion, aionios, etc. are translated correctly (i.e. not everlasting). The remaining passages can be responded to by looking at a broader context e.g. I suggest if you just looked at Rev 20:10 you’d get the wrong idea about the meaning of the Lake of Fire, but if you looked at how fire is used across all of Scripture, I think you can legitimately conclude it doesn’t mean Eternal Conscious Torment.

Yes, I’ve read Talbott, and he has been very helpful to me in my journey. Soon I hope to post a paper called “Pick Two” that describes my variation on his three propositions, only two of which can be true.