The Evangelical Universalist Forum

UR?

Good thoughts, CC. I guess I see this whole thing, in a way, how I disciplined my children. If they outright disobeyed me intentionally, my judgment was against them and I spanked them for their good so, they could live. (For example, spanking for running out into the road when there was a clear “law” against it and they knew better. If, on my way out to get them off the road a car would have been there about to take my child’s life then, I would have pushed her out of the way and died in her place which, in essence is what Yeshua did.) After they spent some time thinking about it (and calming down), they would say they were sorry. I would reaffirm my love for them and our relationship would be restored. I suppose, if I would have died in their place, they would have been thankful and known that it was my love for them that caused me to “save” them and sacrifice myself (blood covering). Because of the experience, they would have probably never gone into the road again like that and would teach others so. When they would “sin” unintentionally, I would talk with them, tell them why what they did was wrong, they would be sorry they did it, I would hug them and tell them it was OK because they didn’t really understand but, that they need to be careful not to do that thing. I would spend some time reaffirming my love for them and make sure they knew this “accident” didn’t compromise our relationship in anyway. It wasn’t always this perfect mind you but, that’s the idea. I guess I view UR “judgment” somewhat in this way. All people will be reconciled, the ones not in intentional sin, will be affirmed right away in relationship with Him because the “spanking” fell to Yeshua on the cross. The ones sinning intentionally, not willing to yield to correction now, will be “spanked” or corrected at the judgment and reconciled in relationship with Yehovah. All of Yehovah’s correction is for the good of people, is loving and helps maturity along but, there is the spanking aspect. I suppose when my children thought me angry and mean, unloving and “ruling over them with an iron fist”, they did not understand my love for them or my desire for their good through discipline. What do you think about this concept?
I’m still pondering your thoughts and appreciate them. May Yehovah give us wisdom in understanding! Salvation belongs to Him and His blessing is upon us. Peace!

So, You believe that all purging of all people comes in each person’s lifetime?

This is a good point, Nathan. One I will think about. Are the “ages” periods of time? I don’t know. If they are that changes things.

I don’t believe any does get off scott free. God is love, justice and truth are wrapped up in love. HHmmmm . . . awesome, Nathan! The time thing really has me thinking and also the purging in this lifetime. All people do go through times of correction in this life. Thank you for the thoughtful response. May we be blessed as we put our trust in Him!

I agree, I don’t beleive we get off scott-free either. But I don’t think even now we can grasp just how much forgiveness has been given to us. I think “in this realm” as Jesus said “in this world, you will have trials and tribulation (that’s my definition of what hell “is”) . …BUT . . .be of good cheer . . .I’VE OVER COME THE WORLD.” I think much of what we experience in this realm stems from the consequences we, ourselves have created by our choices. This world, this realm is an extremely unforgiving realm. You screw up, you pay the price for it. But what’s it like in a realm where all your screw-ups have already been accounted for and dealt with??? Could you IMAGINE???

Actually, I can’t imagine but, looking forward to it! :smiley:
My understanding of Torah is that it tells us what sin is but, the other part of Torah is that of reconciliation. I don’t think there is anything new under the sun. Bringing sacrifices for those sins brought people back into relationship with Yehovah and they supped with Yehovah afterward “on the mountain”, in reconciled relationship and joy. Of course, Yeshua is that sacrifice that “saves” us from our sins and helps us to walk in a clear conscience toward God. But, without the idea of a need for a sacrifice for sin (payment?), we would have to conclude that Jesus died in vain. I have a lot to think about on this one. Thanks, Nathan!

There are simply too many scriptures that speak of a post mortem punishment for me to think that this isn’t so. I don’t think it is because the cross isn’t enough, though. In my view, hell isn’t simply punitive, it is for the purpose of bringing people to the place of repentance. It’s all about reconciliation. The cross is enough, but you have to get a person to the cross for it to be effective in their lives. IF you confess with your mouth and IF you believe in your heart… The gospel is conditional upon our acceptance, I just believe that eventually all will accept it. Some folks come to it much harder than others for reasons that we cannot understand.

Thank you for your thoughts. Do you think the punishment is like a father spanking a child for the child’s own good type of a punishment or because of a need to receive justice in cases where someone is wronged? Or both? I’m wondering if it would be “right” or “ok” if someone hurt (or hated) his neighbor by sinning, for example if someone murders a child, and there were no consequences (or justice served) in that situation. I know once the judgment age is over there is no need for retribution but, doesn’t the whole gospel message start out with the idea that we have not loved God or our neighbor because we have not kept Yehovah’s commandments and that is why we need an atonement for sin, a covering? If we have no covering than we go into judgment and we pay for our own sin. Do I have that right from a UR perspective? I would appreciate any help on this. I know what I think UR from what I know right now from the Scriptures but, I don’t know any of the doctrines of UR. Thank you again, and in advance for your help! Peace and Joy!

Hey Kelly,
I definitely think that! When you read through the Old Testament it reads like a love story between God and Israel. The book of Hosea is especially profound in that regard where Israel is an adulterous harlot and God is seen as purchasing her “as is”. There are some swift and horrible punishments but God makes it clear that reconciliation is always the goal with them and He never delights in the punishments that He gives. Traditional theology would have us believe that God completely changes toward us when we die and that He completely changes the way he does things. The loving, forgiving, long-suffering God suddenly will NEVER forgive and NEVER love again. This is not congruent with the picture God has painted of himself continually throughout scripture. YES he punishes, even quite severely, but God never does anything outside of love as He IS love, just as he never does anything outside of holiness.

So the picture painted in Revelation is a very harsh punishment. OK, but He still loves these people He is punishing. Just as the harsh punishment toward Israel was for their ultimate redemption, I don’t see where that changes. I think the punishment is for bringing us to a place of repentance, just like it did when we were alive in the body. Exactly how He does that we aren’t told and we would only be speculating. Jesus still purchases our salvation but those who die in unbelief will be dealt with harshly, but lovingly, and ultimately for the sake of redemption. Revelation talks about the “Kings of the earth” something like 7 times throughout the book and they are ALWAYS shown in a negative light, as those in rebellion toward God. Yet at the end, they are shown to be redeemed AFTER the second death.

Sonia wrote this about it:

To me the words Olam and Aionian bring to mind that which is distant, on the horizon, barely distinquishable. This is the way I view judgment and punishment of sin. It’s out there. I can see its outline on the horizon and it’s fearsome, terribly fearsome, but I trust in the One who is with me, who will be the judge.

The more I’ve studied the judgment passages, the more I’ve come to believe that they are meant to bring positive change in this life based on both the goodness and severity of God, like the goodness and severity of a loving perfect parent. If punishment is needed to accomplish in us good, then that punishment will be meeted out only as needed. Even more so though I believe that the fire of truth will purge us from all evil, produce in us a clean, repentive, humble heart. And those who have been forgiven the most, will love the most! And I’ve found that God’s unfailing love is woven like a thread of hope throughout the fearsome tapestry of judgment and punishment of sin.

Facing the unshaded truth of our lives will, well, bring us all to tears, tears of repentance and tears of thanks. We’ll see that God keeps reaching out, that our lives are so covered by the love of God that we can see nothing but His goodness! We’ll see all the times when He spoke to us His love, grace, wisdom, conviction and we turned from Him, or turned to Him. We’ll see all that God could have done through us, and all that God did do through us that we didn’t even realize. We’ll be freed from all deception, especially self-deception, freed to walk in truth, grace, and love.

I trust that there will be reconciliation, not only between us and God, but between us and one another, asking and recieving of forgiveness, and humbling of ourselves towards one another. It will be simultaneously more terrible than we can imagine and much better than we can imagine! Hurts so good!

I believe those who expect to see either a punishment or retribution . . .of any kind . . .you may understand the old covenant view of God, but you’re completely missing the point and power of grace.

Cool! Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out with that.
I’m confused on the “kings” passages. In Revelation, He speaks about the rightful “kings of the earth” ,as well as, the kings of the earth as we know them now, doesn’t He? Is He speaking of us, who are kings and priests unto Him, in Rev.21:24? Thanks so much! Peace!

Beautifully put, Sherman. Thank you!

Thank you, Nathan. I agree with you that it should not give us joy to see others endure the process of correction or purification. Is this what you mean? Are you saying that there is no accountability for sin at the judgment or that we should not enjoy watching others receive it?
I believe God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His covenants were always good. And, His correction always restorative. I don’t understand what you mean by “the old covenant view of God”. He has always been the same God, He promised He would save His people from the beginning and He follows through on that. He has always been full of grace. He has always corrected those He loves. And, all undergo correction. My understanding of UR is that there is the general belief that all are corrected, some in this age and some by the purifying fire (God) in the next age or ages. Am I confused about this point of UR doctrine? Thank you for helping me understand what UR doctrine is. I want to compare what the doctrines are to what the Bible says so, I’m trying to understand the doctrines the best I can. Thanks again! Blessings of peace and joy to you, Nathan!

Kelly,
You are primarily right. UR or as some of us call it EU does agree with your statement. There are members here who are what we call Ultra Universalists and don’t believe in post mortem punishement. But EU does. There may be variants of UR that I’m not aware of but I believe UR does.

Have you read Thomas Talbott’s book The Inescapable Love of God. If not, that’s the one I always recommend. Talbott is clever, easy to read and smart as a whip. He’s also a gentlemen and answers his emails. He’s truly a classy man.

He is very philosophical however, so that may be difficult for you if you don’t like philosophy. He gets deep into it but in my opinion, it’s eye openeing. He makes arguments from logic as to why people who reject God are never doing so freely. Overall it’s an excellent book and is, to me, the one to read like 3 times :slight_smile:

Gene

Very eye opening, thank you so much, Gene! I will read Talbott’s book. I read Julie’s book, it was great but, I wasn’t sure where to go from there. I do like philosophy but, sometimes I think, "Does it have to be this difficult to explain? Can’t we just use some common sense! Of course, I was the one that didn’t show my work in Algebra because I didn’t consider those “steps” necessary, it just messed up my thinking. :confused: I’m more mature now. :laughing: I can handle it. :slight_smile:

Hey Kelly, I did a search on the “rightful kings of the earth” but couldn’t find that passage - which one is that? In regard to “the kings of the earth” in Revelation it doesn’t tell us much about them except that they are hostile toward God. They committed adultery with “the woman” in Revelation, they make war against our Lord, the “King of Kings”, the rider on the horse, etc. They are completely opposed to Jesus. It doesn’t tell us how it happened, but all of the sudden there they are, at the end of Revelation when we are looking at a vision of the “final state of things” and it sure seems as if they have converted to Christ! The scriptures don’t tell us what happened, but the “kings of the earth” who were against Christ right up to the end are now for him! I think that the kings of the earth have repented and had their names added to the lambs book of life!

By the “old covenant view of God” I mean that people see God as a god of wrath and judgment so that when you die, there still has to be some form of punitive damage retribution paid by the entrant. But I just don’t believe that there “can” be any of that if the cross is everything Jesus said it was. I think much of the conclusions people have on this is still very much mixed with natural reasoning rather than pure forgiveness and grace. Either Jesus paid the price at the cross or he didn’t. The implication is that he did pay the price at the cross, but you still have to go through some form of hell after you die.

I just don’t see that at all. I believe the cross is greater than any form of disciplinary measures people try to tag on after the fact. So, I don’t see the wrath of God manifesting in the end. I don’t believe there’s any disciplinary action in his judgment at all. I think what Jesus did on the cross was my judgment. If the blood of the Lamb isn’t enough for the retribution of sin, do we really think spending an unknown amount of time, be it little or much, is really going to compensate?

where the old covenant displayed wrath, the New Covenant emphasized grace. The Old covenant was about justice, the New Covenant was about forgiveness. For me, the Old Testament isn’t about God’s relationship with man as much as it is the recording of the trail through which the seed of life passed through men to birth the Son into the world that would redeem man back to God. Once Jesus arrived on the scene, the old covenant was no longer needed. The New Covenant had arrived. No, this is not saying there’s no use for the old testament . . .it’s saying that we should read the Old Testament with New Testament principles. Spiritual grace trumps natural justice. Those whom we deem “evil” receive more grace than those whom we deem “good” because they were further away from righteousness than those who weren’t. yet “our” realm of thinking would say that those that were really bad have to spend more time in hell than those who weren’t so bad.

Old Covenant measures darkness. New Covenant measures light.

I understand what you are saying but the problem is that the scriptures in the New Testament speak graphically and clearly of punishment at the second death after the resurrection. This isn’t old covenant, it is new covenant scripture. The new is full of grace, but that grace comes by faith in Christ and not before. Furthermore, there is punishment of believers in such situations as Ananias and Saphira, and also it is mentioned in 1 Corinthians for believers who take communion in an unworthy manner - some get sick and some even die. Also, the punishment we’re speaking of here is corrective, so it IS grace. What do you make of scriptures in the New Testament about punishment?

***If the blood of the Lamb isn’t enough for the retribution of sin, do we really think spending an unknown amount of time, be it little or much, is really going to compensate?


I’m not talking about compensation here. I’m talking about corrective action made to bring the person to the cross so that he/she might repent and place faith in Christ. I also don’t think that a person is literally being tortured until they repent. I don’t think it’s like that at all. I don’t even think we can comprehend what it is God will do to bring us to a place of repentance. He doesn’t give us any details so we are only speculating.

Good Morning, Dirtboy!
I was thinking of the passages at the beginning of Revelation about the “kings”. 1:5 says Jesus is the prince if the kings of the earth and then in 5:10, John says Jesus has made us kings and priests unto God and that we SHALL reign upon the earth (indicating we have not as yet, like the current kings of the earth are.). We are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood. As Yehovah called Israel so, we are called to be. Then, in Revelation, it seems to switch over to speaking of the current kings if the earth, the rulers that were sitting upon thrones while everything was yet under the “unjust kings of the earth”. In 19:19 those kings, that are against Christ go into battle against Him. And, in 21:24, it looks like the “chosen generation” of king-priests are set in place for the next age. What do you think? Does that look like a reasonable flow of Scripture? I appreciate your thoughts!

Hi Nathan,
I am considering your thoughts on judgment. I really have not had that line of thought so, it’s new to me. I struggle with the word “judgment”, it implies some sort of accountability for sins. The Greek word translated judgment is “krisis”, which indicates some sort of trouble to me. I also think there must be some distinction between those who live for Christ now and those who don’t. And, if there is a distinction now, wouldn’t that necessitate a distinction at this future judgment? Not a distinction of our own goodness you understand but, something He is doing. I am mulling over your words. Thank you for taking so much time to try to help me get what you are saying.

Kelly,I think krisis means a decision, I think we read into it as something bad, and as Nathan pointed out the throne is white, not black.

I’m not sure about this issue, but this train of thought comes into my mind.

The wages of sin is death, and sin is condemned in the flesh. Once we step out of our flesh tent, the wages have been paid, the flesh has been left behind.

If we do go through correcting after death, I believe the only pain involved is our seeing our utter insufficiency in the blinding light of His glory. ( I have had an experience like this ). He wipes away the tears from your eye at the same time as your sins being laid bare. As you shrink away to nothing, he picks you up dusts you off, and floods you with the warmth of His love. We can’t stand before Him on our own, He sustains us with His love. It is a glorious “punishment”. I can’t wait to be there all the time.

This was my morning fb post to my friends . . .
Good Morning, Friends! Yehovah’s mercies are new again today, and everyday! May your path be like the shining sun, shining ever brighter unto the perfect day!

All taken from the old testament. I do not see God’s promises in the OT as darkness. Sin is darkness but, Torah is light. He is the light of the world even from the Genesis. I don’t know this angry, vengeful God you speak of in the Old Testament. I have continually read the whole Bible over and over for more than 20 years and I see Him and goodness, perfection and grace the whole way through. He is the same, never changing God every day. I don’t have a lot of “church teaching”. I hear people saying what you are saying but, I have never gleaned that from just reading the Bible. I see a God, perfect in every way who gave us “the way” to follow. I see we did not follow that way, we went our own way so, we were not walking in Him. It was not His way that was bad, it was our own way that was bad. I see a God who, even in our disobedience, made and kept promises of salvation to lead us back to the way and bless us again, such was always His desire. What I do see is even though we have accepted His salvation, we have neglected the path He set us on and gone back to wallowing in the mud, while using excuses of grace to disgrace Him. I have no agenda, or anything to lose here. Just saying, that is where only reading and studying Scripture has led me.